Golden boy is the future of MMA

[FrankieNYC]

Shows how stupid your opinions are I own my own profitable business and was a general manager of several profitable others before wanting to be an owner.

Not a chance in hell, but thank you for the laugh

I'll break it down for you since you are a nitwit

They received $200-250k each in guaranteed money
The gate was in the $700-750k range
They did about 50k in PPV for about $1.1m gross

30% of a combined $1.8m is $540k

Add $540k + $200-250k & guess what you get?

NOW ...

Bye

 

[FrankieNYC]

those guys are all doing great. obviously their numbers aren’t in UFC territory which is sad. we all remember the days where UFC had legit competition. we can only hope for possibly a merger between the three companies.

Doing great is not losing money & never making a profit

Bellator should make one n 2019 due to the $33m guarantee from DAZN, but squeezing out a profit is not doing great.

Bellator grossed about 1/35 of UFC in 2017.
There is a long way to go, but like I said 2019 & a profit is a nice start

 

[KAZSoliloquy]

Doing great is not losing money & never making a profit

Bellator should make one n 2019 due to the $33m guarantee from DAZN, but squeezing out a profit is not doing great.

Bellator grossed about 1/35 of UFC in 2017.
There is a long way to go, but like I said 2019 & a profit is a nice start

lots of companies start out this way. bellator specifically is making giant progress in their talent pool and name value. viacom needs to work like the government. this asset is gonna take a long time before it can rival the UFC but i think they’re on the rise

 

[FrankieNYC]

lots of companies start out this way. bellator specifically is making giant progress in their talent pool and name value. viacom needs to work like the government. this asset is gonna take a long time before it can rival the UFC but i think they’re on the rise

Where did I say different?
I said losing money does not equal doing great

 

[Mmmmmmma1234]

Not a chance in hell, but thank you for the laugh

I'll break it down for you since you are a nitwit

They received $200-250k each in guaranteed money
The gate was in the $700-750k range
They did about 50k in PPV for about $1.1m gross

30% of a combined $1.8m is $540k

Add $540k + $200-250k & guess what you get?
Bye

Nobody pays out on gross. That's why you're numbers are a fucking joke like your gifs. 30% of $0 Net Revenue is what?

Maybe retake a business 101 class.

 

[KAZSoliloquy]

Where did I say different?
I said losing money does not equal doing great

lol fair enough m8. i think we’re on the same page overall

 

[FrankieNYC]

lol fair enough m8. i think we’re on the same page overall

Deff
Nice back & forth man

 

[da best eva]

How do you keep paying fighters when no one pays for event?

 

[FrankieNYC]

How do you keep paying fighters when no one pays for event?

They have a lot of investment capital

 

[da best eva]

They have a lot of investment capital

Only lasts for so long tho

 

[skylolow]

Once the sport is mainstream enough that the fighters are the brand and not "UFC", they'll be able to promote themselves. It took a while in boxing too.

The UFC as a promotion keeps such an incredibly high percentage of the ppv revenue that there's no way fighters accept that for a long time.

I do appreciate that the UFC essentially subsidizes the under card, but the reality is those guys don't bring in their worth, which is why they make pennies under the boxing model.

Isn't the end game for any boxing promoter to be more or less the UFC of boxing?

They want every top fighter they can get under contract. Boxing model is great on the top end pay out. You have to remember boxing behind the scenes is very small when compared to the UFC. UFC is employing hundreds of people that go to work everyday and most boxing promotions/promoters have significantly less behind the scenes cost. I would venture to guess that MoneyTeam and Golden Boy probably each employ less than 20 full time people year around. Boxing just doesn't have the business infrastructure that the UFC has and that infrastructure cost tens of millions to yearly. They have to keep more of the revenue simply because of it. Don't get me wrong, I believe that UFC could increase fight pay percentage by 5% of all revenue for example and be just fine. But at the same time this sport is about a decade in its life of making real big money. It all takes time to trickle down. Fighter pay has very little to do with the business structure of MMA. If it wasn't for the UFC, MMA as we know it all today probably would still be more or less underground and fighters would be making peanuts compared to what they are making as a whole now.

I do truly believe the UFC fighters will eventually get some type of association going to represent them as one voice as that is the natural progression of any major sport. But even then it won't be like the fighters take home 80% of the revenue. The sport would fail then. I think there best day ever might be 50%.

 

[TemDee]

Isn't the end game for any boxing promoter to be more or less the UFC of boxing?

They want every top fighter they can get under contract. Boxing model is great on the top end pay out. You have to remember boxing behind the scenes is very small when compared to the UFC. UFC is employing hundreds of people that go to work everyday and most boxing promotions/promoters have significantly less behind the scenes cost. I would venture to guess that MoneyTeam and Golden Boy probably each employ less than 20 full time people year around. Boxing just doesn't have the business infrastructure that the UFC has and that infrastructure cost tens of millions to yearly. They have to keep more of the revenue simply because of it. Don't get me wrong, I believe that UFC could increase fight pay percentage by 5% of all revenue for example and be just fine. But at the same time this sport is about a decade in its life of making real big money. It all takes time to trickle down. Fighter pay has very little to do with the business structure of MMA. If it wasn't for the UFC, MMA as we know it all today probably is would still be more or less underground and fighters would be making peanuts compared to what they are making as a whole now.

I do truly believe the UFC fighters will eventually get some type of association going to represent them as one voice as that is the natural progression of any major sport. But even then it won't be like the fighters take home 80% of the revenue. The sport would fail then. I think there best day every might be 50%.

Of course, the UFC is in an incredible position. It's just in the fighter's interest, and I believe the fighters will eventually become the commodity, not the promotion.

 

[skylolow]

so when you say

By a long time you mean compared to the 1867 introduction of the Marquess of Queensberry Rules to when the Ali Act went into effect in 2000? So somewhere around 2135, MMA fighters will finally wise up?

It's a good question as to how long it will take.

Just recently(last 8 years or so) fighters have really got to see what the UFC is revenue looks like and before 2005 UFC was losing money and everyone knew it. So big picture making money in MMA is pretty new thing. Now fighters have seen the UFC sold for 4 billion, then came back around a year later and raised capital based on a 6 billion dollar value. Just signed a 300 million a year US TV deal, increased worldwide TV deals substantially when old deals came up, and this list goes on an on.

The same thing happens in all major sports history. The league or owners make a killing for year and then over time the athletes finally wise up and speak as one. Eventually the fighters will do something and I'm sure the UFC expects it. But I don't think anytime soon. My understanding from listening to various MMA radio/podcast is these fighter associations that try to start and still going literally can't get any traction what so ever. In other words barely a fighter signs up. Even these few groups trying to do something can't even work together. I'm not sure what it will take before it changes with the fighters getting on board in masses.

 

[skylolow]

Nobody pays out on gross. That's why you're numbers are a fucking joke like your gifs. 30% of $0 Net Revenue is what?

Maybe retake a business 101 class.

What Frankie is saying is the fight game isn't like a traditional business.

There is certain guarantees that go into it before the event even happens and most of it is based of gross because that is the only amount anyone knows going into the event.

Take a concert promoter for example(lots of data out there to support this and I happen to have knowledge on it) who brings band "x" to town. That band may offer a few different ways to pay them depending on there level of success. One might be a flat fee (50% up front and 50% before they go on stage). Another way, you pay band "x" a set amount(usually lower than the first example, it guaranteed even if 5 people only show up) and every ticket sold you pay the band an additional $10 or whatever amount is negotiated. These are two of the most common methods when dealing with what I'd call mid level bands that play 500 to 3000 seat places. Based on those stipulations the concert promoter and the band have to figure out if they can make money or not on that show. The later method the band is being paid per a ticket sold based on that gross amount of the ticket. Not net after the dust settles, that is the promoter's problem.

Remember Tito and Chuck are the attraction Golden Boy is paying for. They aren't business partners in the traditional business sense and share both the profits and loses.

 

[Mmmmmmma1234]

What Frankie is saying is the fight game isn't like a traditional business.

There is certain guarantees that go into it before the event even happens and most of it is based of gross because that is the only amount anyone knows going into the event.

Take a concert promoter for example(lots of data out there to support this and I happen to have knowledge on it) who brings band "x" to town. That band may offer a few different ways to pay them depending on there level of success. One might be a flat fee (50% up front and 50% before they go on stage). Another way, you pay band "x" a set amount(usually lower than the first example, it guaranteed even if 5 people only show up) and every ticket sold you pay the band an additional $10 or whatever amount is negotiated. These are two of the most common methods when dealing with what I'd call mid level bands that play 500 to 3000 seat places. Based on those stipulations the concert promoter and the band have to figure out if they can make money or not on that show. The later method the band is being paid per a ticket sold based on that gross amount of the ticket. Not net after the dust settles, that is the promoter's problem.

Remember Tito and Chuck are the attraction Golden Boy is paying for. They aren't business partners in the traditional business sense and share both the profits and loses.

Sure go ahead and believe FrankieNYC's outlandish and unsupported claims these guys get $1.5 from a gross of 50k ppv buys while all other sources say the event did 25-30k buys. Golden Boi just is in business to throw money away not only taking expensive losses from venue, ppv providers(who typically take 50% of ppv buys off the top), and advertising costs, but also compounding it because they were so dumb to compound their loss to increase two fighter's payouts and paid Tito and Chuck an excessive amount off the top before paying any other costs. When they could have easily given out the same contracts for Chuck and Tito with them getting 60% net revenue like any smart business would incase this didn't do 500k buys like they planned.

 

[skylolow]

Sure go ahead and believe FrankieNYC's outlandish and unsupported claims these guys get $1.5 from a gross of 50k ppv buys while all other sources say the event did 25-30k buys. Golden Boi just is in business to throw money away not only taking expensive losses from venue, ppv providers(who typically take 50% of ppv buys off the top), and advertising costs, but also compounding it because they were so dumb to compound their loss to increase two fighter's payouts and paid Tito and Chuck an excessive amount off the top before paying any other costs. When they could have easily given out the same contracts for Chuck and Tito with them getting 60% net revenue like any smart business would incase this didn't do 500k buys like they planned.

But that goes against the point of Golden Boy doing MMA. They wanted to run it like a boxing model. Which the fighters themselves take home the most money usually. Golden Boy doesn't do this if they think they'll lose money right off the bat. The only guarantee expense as a promoter they had going in is fighters contracted pay and all the little bits and pieces of putting on the show. Apparently they thought they could cover all those cost with ticket sales and PPV buys. Knowing up front that the PPV company is taking "X" amount off the top I'm assuming chances are high that the 30% being reported is 30% of that left over avg. number per a buy which would end up being about $6 to 6.75 a buy Chuck and Tito each got.

We have no ideal how Golden Boy did on this event and we have no ideal what Chuck and Tito actually took home. But chances are quite good Frankie's numbers aren't that far off overall for Chuck and Tito. Whole point being is Chuck and Tito probably made much more fighting in their two UFC fights than this event did. Tito said at UFC 66 he made 2.9 million. But Golden Boy gave them the opportunity to make much more which most MMA models do not allow.

Personally, I think this was nothing more than a chance of a quick money grab by Golden Boy. Beyond Dana's rant about Oscar it is well known that he did not build up Golden Boy. It's also well known he isn't the sharpest tool in the shed on the business side of things in the sport of boxing. Richard Schaefer is who built Golden Boy up and more or less showed Oscar that this is the way to go. I believe he left Golden Boy a few years back now. So I'm not sure who is steering that ship right now. But it won't surprise me if they thought bringing these two big names in MMA together would sell an easy 400K in buys if not more. I think they thought they could make quick few million with not a lot of work as we saw the promotion of this fight was underwhelming to say the least. I highly doubt they lost much money but at the same time they sure didn't make much either if anything.

 

[tithas]

Are they really paying all their guys top dollar? If so then yes. But lets be real, they going to pay prelim fighter prob the same or lower than UFC.

much lower. They were paying 1k to fighters and the co-main got 25k and 10k. UFC starting is 12/12 now

 

[tithas]

They give the fighters a significantly larger portion of the ppv revenue, but don't pay as high base.

They only gave tito and chuck PPV revenue. Undercard guys all got 1k-25k with most making under 10k.

 

[TemDee]

They only gave tito and chuck PPV revenue. Undercard guys all got 1k-25k with most making under 10k.

AFAIK Chuck and tito got 450k combined show money, so they still got paid some show.

 

[tithas]

Everyone needs to remember the boxing model only works because boxing promoters have almost no fixed cost. Venues are free in many cases (UFC pays to hold events), broadcast partners (HBO/Sho etc) pay a decent amount for rebroadcast rights, PPV prices are higher (99 for a big fight) and venues allow a cut of all revenue including food/drinks for a bigger fight to the promoter. The boxing model only works because cost are much lower than what the UFC spends. Boxing also does not have to worry about hundreds of employees worldwide and reinvestment into the sport. They have also had 100 years to build their model and get everyone use to its oddness.