International Hamas launches surprise attack on Israel; Israel has declared a state of war. Vol. II

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It's "THE ONLY ONE OPEN TO THEM"? Not by a long shot.
Since we can't change the past, let's just momentarily pass over the fact that the actions of Israel play a large part in how we got to where we are today. There are a whole lot of options Israel had to not let things get this way so that the situation in Gaza didn't get desperate enough where the people voted Hamas in in the first place. You can't cripple their economy and then be surprised that it created a bunch of extremists.

So on the one hand you say "we can't change the past", presumably to say "so lets forget about it", but then you want to revisit the past and solely blame Israel. LOL, nice trick. Virtually everything Israel did that you think is bad was a response to Palestinian attacks. Israel pulled out of Gaza in 2005 and almost immediately the Palestinians elected Hamas, and Hamas started turning Gaza into platform for launching missiles at Israel and digging tunnels into Israel to launch terror attacks. The Israeli's didn't just lock them down for the hell of it.

Tempers aren't going to cool down on both sides, because once Israel is satisfied, there are going to be Palestinians that are going to want their pay back someday. Hezbollah and other groups are going to be more than happy to keep war going as well, and they'll use this brutality to justify it.

The muslims have been attacking Jews in the land since before the establishment of modern Israel. Their holy book tells them they must.

If you asked the American public if they wanted to have a 20 year war, sinking trillions of dollars into the sand dunes and mountains of the Middle East, how many people would have been on board with that? Would American citizens want innocent Iraqi and Afghan women and children to be bombed because of what a terrorist group did ? (especially when we helped create them)
How would Israel even know how many Hamas fighters they are killing vs. civilians with the way they drop the bombs?

Bad things are going to happen in war, especially when you are fighting an enemy that practically wraps itself in civilians. But Israel doesn't drop bombs indiscriminately. When they feel they have to destroy a military or terrorist target and it's too close to a civilian one they take great pains to warn the civilians to get away from the area. From making announcements on loudspeakers to cell phone messages to carpet bombing the area with warning flyers. Even still it's war and they are facing an enemy that LIKES civilian casualties.

Hamas on the other hand launches thousands of missiles at Israel and a great amount of them misfire and kill people in Gaza, and they don't give a shit. In their mind those are martyrs going to heaven or filthy Christians who deserver hellfire.

If Israel was serious about peace, as the United States as its backer, the amount of political and economic pressure we could put on the whole region would definitely avoid the shit show we have now. But that would also require Western powers to stop being hypocrites and actually live up to the bullshit that they preach...which is why it won't happen.
End the proxy wars, make meaningful improvements to Gaza, and send in special forces to take out the killers. How many terrorist groups do we need to help create before we get the picture that you can't just bomb your way out of these issues?

Whether or not Israel is "serious about peace" is irrelevant when they are being attacked by people who are serious about Israel's destruction. Maybe you think Jews could have avoided the holocaust if they were nicer to Hitler.
 
Israel to refuse visas to UN officials after Guterres speech on Gaza war
Protesting the UN chief’s indirect criticism of Israel, Israel’s UN envoy says ‘the time has come to teach them a lesson’.

Israel will refuse visas to United Nations officials, its ambassador to the UN has said, as the country’s spat with the international organisation deepens.

Gilad Erdan made the statement on Wednesday, according to Israeli media, as the fallout from the UN chief’s speech at the Security Council the previous day continues.

UN Secretary-General Antonio Guterres indirectly criticised Israel for ordering the evacuation of civilians from the north to the south of the Gaza Strip. He also said Hamas’s attack on Israel on October 7 did not happen “in a vacuum” as the Palestinians have been “subjected to 56 years of suffocating occupation”.

Many countries welcomed Guterres’s “very balanced approach”, reported Al Jazeera’s Gabriel Elizondo from New York. However, Israel was “furious” and its officials called on the UN chief to resign.

Israeli Foreign Minister Eli Cohen, who was at the debate, “was so upset”, said Elizondo, “that he cancelled a meeting with the secretary-general that was supposed to happen Tuesday afternoon”.

“It is really unusual to see this sort of reaction against the secretary-general,” Elizondo added.

“Due to his [Guterres’s] remarks, we will refuse to issue visas to UN representatives,” Erdan told Army Radio. “We have already refused a visa for Under-Secretary-General for Humanitarian Affairs Martin Griffiths. The time has come to teach them a lesson.”

Erdan said on X, formerly Twitter, that the UN chief has “expressed an understanding for terrorism and murder” with this speech.

Later, Guterres posted an extract from his speech on X in an apparent bid to show he has criticised both Hamas and Israel for the crisis in Gaza.

The grievances of the Palestinian people cannot justify the horrific attacks by Hamas. Those horrendous attacks cannot justify the collective punishment of the Palestinian people,” he wrote.

The Palestinian Ministry of Foreign Affairs has condemned Israel’s call for the UN secretary-general to resign, describing it as an “unprovoked attack”.

In a post on X, the Palestinian ministry described Israel’s position as an “extension” of its “disrespect and lack of commitment” to the UN, its charter, and resolutions regarding Palestine.

https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2023...n-officials-after-guterres-speech-on-gaza-war


he-man.jpg

-The genocides don't want to be called genocides!
 
Beyond economic development, what do you see as solutions for changing ideology and rooting out extremism?
What existing models do you know of which have succeeded in similar situations?
They need to fund a moderate government for Palestine. Back in the day Palestine had lots of secular, left wing even, politicians but Israel murdered them.
Fatah was ruling over Gaza until they lost a war to Hamas. Israel could've helped Fatah but they prefer Hamas in a way because Hamas doesn't elicit sympathy from the world while Fatah was extremely popular with the left wing in the West.
 
Don't act on it?? Uhh, have you not seen how the governments of those nations have chosen to deal with the existence of Israel since its inception??? What planet are you on? They nonstop are working towards weakening and eventually (in their hopes) toppling Israel. I mean...are you being serious?

How about this: the Muslim nations of the middle east make the first "gesture" and actively cut off and help eradicate the terror groups they fund? Come to the table with a plan for that in exchange for Israel making concessions on settlements, agreements about living conditions that they affect in Gaza, etc. Have Iran, Syria, Lebanon denounce the actions of their proxies publicly and vie to work WITH the west to wipe them out. Show Israel that they aren't a target to be eliminated, and that if they also take steps toward peace it can be achieved.

What's that? Those nations will NEVER do that? Israel and the west have to initiate and then wait while those nations continue on the exact same path? You'll do all the asking of one side, and the reasons are obvious and exactly what I've been trying to explain to you: those other actors in that region don't want peace with Israel. They want Isarael gone, eliminated.
But hey, yeah, negotiating with entities that yearn for your destruction will absolutely work.

From its inception Israel created an apartheid state with different laws for Arab/ Muslims than Jews as a means to displace them from the land. You keep acting like they decided to create this new ethno-state where it didn’t exist before but somehow wasn’t mistreating the other ethnic groups present. That’s bullshit.

Both sides are responsible for this mess so putting the first “gesture” on one side is dumb logic. How about Israel actually follows the land agreements it agreed to in the past and Hamas stops the militant attacks at the same time. If Israel prefers to keep the stolen land and go to war with militants over it they can try defending it without our aide and stand on their own two feet. If they give the land back and Hamas still wants to launch attacks we allow Israel with our aide to take it all.
 
Turkey's Erdogan says Hamas is not a terrorist organisation

"Hamas is not a terrorist organisation, it is a liberation group, 'mujahideen' waging a battle to protect its lands and people," he said, using an Arabic word denoting those who fight for their faith.

Erdogan also slammed Western powers that have voiced support for Israel's retaliation against Hamas, saying "Western tears shed for Israel are a manifestation of fraud".
https://www.reuters.com/world/middl...mas-is-not-terrorist-organisation-2023-10-25/

I fucking hate the fact Turkey is a NATO member.
 
Turkey's Erdogan says Hamas is not a terrorist organisation

"Hamas is not a terrorist organisation, it is a liberation group, 'mujahideen' waging a battle to protect its lands and people," he said, using an Arabic word denoting those who fight for their faith.

Erdogan also slammed Western powers that have voiced support for Israel's retaliation against Hamas, saying "Western tears shed for Israel are a manifestation of fraud".
https://www.reuters.com/world/middl...mas-is-not-terrorist-organisation-2023-10-25/

I fucking hate the fact Turkey is a NATO member.

He has to say that shit, he's a Sunni and his powerbase is centered around Turkish fundamentalists and conservatives.
 
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They need to fund a moderate government for Palestine. Back in the day Palestine had lots of secular, left wing even, politicians but Israel murdered them.
Fatah was ruling over Gaza until they lost a war to Hamas. Israel could've helped Fatah but they prefer Hamas in a way because Hamas doesn't elicit sympathy from the world while Fatah was extremely popular with the left wing in the West.
They will certainly need new governance. Fatah believes in a diplomatic solution, I don't know if it is right to consider that a "moderate" stance. Fatah will likely pay the families of the terrorists involved in the Oct 7th attack severance pay for the rest of their lives as is their policy for anyone "martyred" fighting the occupation.
Fatah returning to power would set the stage for a final border agreement - something Bibi/Likud don't want but I hope something pans out.
 
From its inception Israel created an apartheid state with different laws for Arab/ Muslims than Jews as a means to displace them from the land. You keep acting like they decided to create this new ethno-state where it didn’t exist before but somehow wasn’t mistreating the other ethnic groups present. That’s bullshit.

Both sides are responsible for this mess so putting the first “gesture” on one side is dumb logic. How about Israel actually follows the land agreements it agreed to in the past and Hamas stops the militant attacks at the same time. If Israel prefers to keep the stolen land and go to war with militants over it they can try defending it without our aide and stand on their own two feet. If they give the land back and Hamas still wants to launch attacks we allow Israel with our aide to take it all.

When you're attacked by the parties you hold agreements with, those agreements become null and void. Welcome to reality. In order to exist at all, Israel obviously had to be set up the way it was. Acting otherwise is ignoring reality too. Those present when Israel was formed instantly began their campaign to undermine and eventually destroy it. You'd actually argue otherwise?

Hamas (and throw in PIJ, Hezbollah, and any other of the myriad of terror groups present) aren't going to stop. How many different ways can this be explained to you?
Israel, even if you think them despicable, is an actual nation with an actual government that does have SOME restraints placed on them. Of course they get away with more than they should, but that's a far cry from these groups that are just puppets for governments hostile to Israel that are nothing more than a way for Tehran or Damascus to wage war without directly waging war. And with deniability.
You do understand that if all those proxy terrorist organizations laid all their arms down tomorrow, Iran, Lebanon, Syria would continue on as nations. You agree? If Israel did, it would cease to exist. That's not up for debate. Do you somehow think that difference irrelevant?
 
Palestinian Americans on the Israel-Hamas war: 'We're not even allowed to grieve'
October 23, 20238:41 PM ET
Sandhya Dirks

For the latest updates on the Israel-Hamas war, follow our digital live coverage.

For more than two weeks now, Tariq Luthun has been unable to sleep.

"I barely have time to engage in the act of living," he says. From his home in Detroit he's watching his family's home of Gaza be flattened, block by block.

Inundated with images of bombs and rubble and broken bodies, he is at turns devastated and terrified. Sometimes he just feels numb.

The bombing began as a response to Hamas' Oct. 7 attack on Israel, which left more than 1,400 Israelis dead. Israel says 222 hostages were taken over the border.

Since then, Israel's bombardment of Gaza has killed more than 5,000, according to Palestinian officials. About 100 more have been killed in the West Bank, according to the Palestinian health ministry. The United Nations has said that over 1 million people in Gaza have been internally displaced.

According to human rights groups, Gaza is in the depths of a humanitarian crisis, a direct result of Israel's bombing and "complete siege" of the enclave. Over the weekend, the first trucks carrying aid started to trickle through from Egypt to Gaza, part of a U.N.-brokered deal helped along by leaders of various countries, the U.S. among them. President Biden has continued to say his administration stands with Israel, while urging that country to minimize civilian casualties.

To be Palestinian American in this context, Luthan says, is to feel erased – like the deaths of your people don't matter.

The dozen Palestinian Americans NPR talked to from around the U.S. say they are mourning Gaza, while feeling completely abandoned by their country. On top of that, they fear rising anti-Palestinian sentiment and Islamophobia.

"We're not even allowed to grieve"

Luthun does data engineering by day. By night he's a poet and a community organizer. He mostly has done work around disability justice, but ever since the war started, he's been on Zoom calls and group texts with other organizers, strategizing the best way to call for a ceasefire and stop the bombing. He says around 75 percent of his family is in Gaza. So far, they've survived.

"I'm literally watching my family get bombed and then being gaslit to say, 'Oh, they deserve it,'" Luthun says. He hears Hamas being conflated with innocent Palestinians like his family, or that all Palestinians bear responsibility for Hamas' attack on Israel.

More than half of Gaza's population are children, meaning many weren't alive, let alone old enough to vote back then.

For two weeks Israel's "complete siege" of Gaza has halted food, medical supplies and fuel from getting in. Power and water are still cut off. Saturday, after waiting at Egypt's Rafah crossing, 20 trucks of aid were allowed into Gaza; Sunday, a United Nations official said on social media that another dozen or so trucks were allowed in. But the United Nations has said it's only a drop in the bucket for a besieged population of more than 2 million, as Israel's bombing campaign continues without pause. More than 200 aid trucks are still waiting to cross. Palestinian civilians are still trapped inside Gaza, with no way out.

Hani Almadhoun works at the United Nations Relief and Works Agency (UNRWA), the primary relief organization in Gaza, so he knows how things work on the ground. He lives in the D.C. area, but was visiting with his family, just a few weeks ago.

But now, "even if I wanted to go to Gaza, I can't. If I want to get my family out of Gaza, I can't," he says.

Almadhoun says some of his family went south, after Israel ordered 1 million Palestinians to leave Gaza City. Other members stayed together on the edge of northern Gaza – because Israel also bombed the south.

He says most of his family members are huddled together in an apartment building, staying away from windows during the day, sleeping under staircases at night, aware they could die at any moment.

When Almadhoun finally got in touch with his mother a week into the bombing, she asked to do a video call so she could see his face, in case it's the last time.

"I had my sister ask me to adopt her daughter if they get bombed and her daughter survives," he says.

Over the weekend, his sister-in-law lost 12 members of her family in an airstrike on their home. All of her siblings are gone, and they can't find her father in the rubble.

He says it's not just the stories of loss and horror he's hearing from Gaza – it's also what he feels is a callous response to those horrors by people here in the U.S.

When NPR first talked with Almadhoun, he had just seen a video on social media, shared by a friend and colleague in Gaza. It showed the body bags of at least 20 of his friend's family members, all dead.

"'Oh, this is fake,'" he says people wrote in the comments on his friend's post. "'These are not real people. These are Hamas fighters.'"

"We're not even allowed to grieve," he says.

"No understanding"

Empathy isn't the only thing absent from the discourse, says Rania Mustafa, executive director of the Palestinian Community Center, an advocacy group in New Jersey. Many conversations that are happening here in the U.S. are missing key context, she says, as if everyone is picking up a book in the middle, thinking it's the beginning.

She says American politicians, media and culture are stuck in what she calls a false narrative that this latest siege began with Hamas' attack – when decades of complicated history preceded this moment.

This is the fifth time Israel has had a war or conflict with Gaza in the past 15 years. But the history goes back even further she says, to what Palestinians call 'the Nakba' — or 'catastrophe' in Arabic – the mass displacement of 700,000 Palestinians during the establishment of Israel.

For the past 16 years, Israel has maintained a land, sea and air blockade of Gaza – restricting the movement of people and goods. Egypt also has a blockade on its border with the enclave. Both countries say it's necessary to protect against militants, though some humanitarian groups have called Gaza an "open-air prison."

Palestinians are, Mustafa says, essentially locked in. All of that, she argues, set the stage for Hamas' violent attack. It's not a justification she says, but it is central to understanding what is happening and why.

But she feels like that has all been erased from the national conversation.

"There's no understanding of this," she says "the lack of even taking any context into consideration is honestly unjust."

"We stand with Israel"

The United States has long supported Israel, diplomatically, militarily and financially. Washington has continued that support even as some human rights groups have called what is happening to Palestinians in parts of the occupied territories, including Gaza, apartheid.

During this latest conflict, Biden has urged Israel to limit civilian casualties, but his support for the country has not wavered, and he's reiterated his support for Israel's right to defend itself. He has not publicly condemned the siege of Gaza and has not called for an end to the bombing.

More recently, Biden has emphasized that Palestinian civilians are being harmed, and stated that the "vast majority" of Palestinians "have nothing to do with Hamas" – but many Palestinian Americans listening say it feels like his rhetoric has privileged Israeli pain over their own.

Hani Almadhoun says he feels like Palestinians in Gaza and the U.S. have been abandoned by the U.S. government.
"Palestinians in Gaza are dead and nobody seems to care," he adds.

https://www.npr.org/2023/10/23/1208...ael-hamas-war-were-not-even-allowed-to-grieve
 
https://news.sky.com/video/israel-h...inister-tells-sky-news-at-un-meeting-12992014

And for those saying the Abraham accords are dead - Saudi FM signaling normalization is still on the table.

===

The Foreign Minister of Bahrain in a statement during the second day of an economic gathering in Saudi Arabia:

“The war in Gaza between Hamas and Israel must not be allowed to delay the economic connection in the region that began following the Abraham Accords. It is very important to continue building bridges in the area.”
 
Beyond economic development, what do you see as solutions for changing ideology and rooting out extremism?
What existing models do you know of which have succeeded in similar situations?

Beyond economic development, it's going to be eliminating the funding that extremists get/stopping the proxy wars that gas these guys up. There needs to be a space where moderates and sensible people can live and form a functioning society. With the state of things now, there's no easy path. Trust has to be built, and meaningful steps towards a mending have to happen.
Off the top of my head, I can't think of an existing model that has succeeded. But that's kind of by design. Most states, especially super powers, basically have a policy to never admit fault. It goes against a politicians interests in terms of elections, and states don't want to look weak to the electorate, or to their enemies. People were bitching about Obama giving back Iran their own money that we withheld from them decades ago. I don't see how people are supposed to move on if we're gaslighting them and we can't admit undisputable truths. When you can keep restarting the clock and say "The war began on Oct 7th/9/11" then the game will never end.
I think we need something similar to the truth and reconciliation commission post apartheid in SA.
 
Question for the contrarians, how do you sleep at night defending this person?
People that we perceive as non-Western are held to different moral standards.
Beyond economic development, it's going to be eliminating the funding that extremists get/stopping the proxy wars that gas these guys up. There needs to be a space where moderates and sensible people can live and form a functioning society. With the state of things now, there's no easy path. Trust has to be built, and meaningful steps towards a mending have to happen.
Off the top of my head, I can't think of an existing model that has succeeded. But that's kind of by design. Most states, especially super powers, basically have a policy to never admit fault. It goes against a politicians interests in terms of elections, and states don't want to look weak to the electorate, or to their enemies. People were bitching about Obama giving back Iran their own money that we withheld from them decades ago. I don't see how people are supposed to move on if we're gaslighting them and we can't admit undisputable truths. When you can keep restarting the clock and say "The war began on Oct 7th/9/11" then the game will never end.
I think we need something similar to the truth and reconciliation commission post apartheid in SA.
With your reference to apartheid in SA, I understand you are calling for a one state solution?
 
From its inception Israel created an apartheid state with different laws for Arab/ Muslims than Jews as a means to displace them from the land. You keep acting like they decided to create this new ethno-state where it didn’t exist before but somehow wasn’t mistreating the other ethnic groups present. That’s bullshit.

Both sides are responsible for this mess so putting the first “gesture” on one side is dumb logic. How about Israel actually follows the land agreements it agreed to in the past and Hamas stops the militant attacks at the same time. If Israel prefers to keep the stolen land and go to war with militants over it they can try defending it without our aide and stand on their own two feet. If they give the land back and Hamas still wants to launch attacks we allow Israel with our aide to take it all.


This is a good post, and it always amazes me how many north americans dont relaize this and still beleive that Israel is a good actor and has ever negoiated in good faith.

Israel seems to be the modern day Emperror has no cloths. They are committing war crimes and colonizing an indigenous people but simply seem to say "no we are not" and the world beleives them.

I think Israel will eventually displace and anex gaza. I just wish we were all honest about it.
 
When you're attacked by the parties you hold agreements with, those agreements become null and void. Welcome to reality. In order to exist at all, Israel obviously had to be set up the way it was. Acting otherwise is ignoring reality too. Those present when Israel was formed instantly began their campaign to undermine and eventually destroy it. You'd actually argue otherwise?

Hamas (and throw in PIJ, Hezbollah, and any other of the myriad of terror groups present) aren't going to stop. How many different ways can this be explained to you?
Israel, even if you think them despicable, is an actual nation with an actual government that does have SOME restraints placed on them. Of course they get away with more than they should, but that's a far cry from these groups that are just puppets for governments hostile to Israel that are nothing more than a way for Tehran or Damascus to wage war without directly waging war. And with deniability.
You do understand that if all those proxy terrorist organizations laid all their arms down tomorrow, Iran, Lebanon, Syria would continue on as nations. You agree? If Israel did, it would cease to exist. That's not up for debate. Do you somehow think that difference irrelevant?

when you create a new ethno-state on top of other ethnic groups and grant your ethnic group superior status under law to displace them you make yourself a target for retaliation.

Hamas hasn’t been in power forever and like wise can lose that power. “They’ll never ever stop and and never ever go away” is a lazy and childish argument.
 
when you create a new ethno-state on top of other ethnic groups and grant your ethnic group superior status under law to displace them you make yourself a target for retaliation.

Hamas hasn’t been in power forever and like wise can lose that power. “They’ll never ever stop and and never ever go away” is a lazy and childish argument.
Party before them was super peaceful
 
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