International Hamas launches surprise attack on Israel; Israel has declared a state of war. Vol. VII

[Strychnine]

But @Strychnine seems to disagree with that part and even seemingly justifies over-aggression with reference to the Oct 7th attack.

So I think its only natural to ask what is the limit? Can the IDF deploy chemical weapons in Gaza and be blameless because of Hamas' brutality on Oct 7th? I doubt you would agree with that but I think its the logical conclusion of what he's arguing.

Just as occupation and apartheid cannot be a justification for "by any means necessary" neither can fighting terrorists. Otherwise Hamas supporters can say that endless occupation, displacement, and apartheid is the fault of Israel and every civilian death on Oct 7th is the fault of the occupiers. In fact that is exactly what they do say and its repugnant.

I'm not justifying any overkill by Israel. I'm just against Hamas putting on baby Bjorn's and crying when they get shot at by Israel.

But Israel MUST let him go even though women were raped and slaughtered at a peace concert FOR him, then their bodies paraded through the streets, spat on, and he took a around a hundred people as hostages.


Yes. Israel must let him go.

 

[BAM]

But @Strychnine seems to disagree with that part and even seemingly justifies over-aggression with reference to the Oct 7th attack.

So I think its only natural to ask, what is the limit? Can the IDF deploy chemical weapons in Gaza and be blameless because of Hamas' brutality on Oct 7th? I doubt you would agree with that but I think its the logical conclusion of what he's arguing.

Just as occupation and apartheid cannot be a justification for "by any means necessary" neither can fighting terrorists. Otherwise Hamas supporters can say that endless occupation, displacement, and apartheid is the fault of Israel and every civilian death on Oct 7th is the fault of the occupiers. In fact that is exactly what they do say and its repugnant.

it's hard to determine over-aggression when you have Israel and Hamas lying about everything and not sharing their rationale for each strike with the public. We are then left with the totality of it, trying to make sense by deduction.

As previously posted, you gave an example of where it could be acceptable, a senior leader and a dozen collateral kills. And you've given another scenario where it wouldn't - 500 collateral deaths for a few foot soldiers. So in principle, you accept collateral damage up to a certain point.

The issue, imo, is It's a proportionality scale, where we aren't given the rubric or the rationale for the strike and aren't provided accurate unbiased figures. Proportionality is a core principle of self-defense and in international law, but that's assessed in a case-by-case scenario.

 

[Islam Imamate]

I'm not justifying any overkill by Israel. I'm just against Hamas putting on baby Bjorn's and crying when they get shot at by Israel.

But Israel MUST let him go even though women were raped and slaughtered at a peace concert FOR him, then their bodies paraded through the streets, spat on, and he took a around a hundred people as hostages.


Yes. Israel must let him go.

That's not what I said, why can't you engage with what I'm saying? Apparently you don't think there should be any limits on Israeli conduct here. I've asked you numerous times if you think a sarin gas attack would be justified in light of Hamas' brutality on Oct 7th and if I'm being honest it does come off as if you're implying that "yes they would be"

If so that's a very extremist position that would put you among a small, radical minority.

it's hard to determine over-aggression when you have Israel and Hamas lying about everything and not sharing their rationale for each strike with the public. We are then left with the totality of it, trying to make sense by deduction.

As previously posted, you gave an example of where it could be acceptable, a senior leader and a dozen collateral kills. And you've given another scenario where it wouldn't - 500 collateral deaths for a few foot soldiers. So in principle, you accept collateral damage up to a certain point.

The issue, imo, is It's a proportionality scale, where we aren't given the rubric or the rationale for the strike and aren't provided accurate unbiased figures. Proportionality is a core principle of self-defense and in international law, but that's a case-by-case scenario.

Collateral damage is unavoidable but I don't think Israel is not responsible for how it conducts the war.

I don't think its an accident that the Israelis pushed civilians to the border with Egypt and then we had whispers of expulsion leaking from the Israeli government. I think if they were given the greenlight by Biden and Sisi the plan would've been to expel most Gazans into the Sinai permanently and presumably some posters like the aforementioned one would be okay with that.

 

[Strychnine]

That's not what I said, why can't you engage with what I'm saying? Apparently you don't think there should be any limits on Israeli conduct here. I've asked you numerous times if you think a sarin gas attack would be justified in light of Hamas' brutality on Oct 7th and if I'm being honest it does come off as if you're implying that "yes they would be"

If so that's a very extremist position that would put you among a small, radical minority.

Collateral damage is unavoidable but I don't think Israel is not responsible for how it conducts the war.

I don't think its an accident that the Israelis pushed civilians to the border with Egypt and then we had whispers of expulsion leaking from the Israeli government. I think if they were given the greenlight by Biden and Sisi the plan would've been to expel most Gazans into the Sinai permanently and presumably some posters like the aforementioned one would be okay with that.

A sarin gas attack is not justified in any war. It's a war crime and I'm against it. I'm against Israel using cluster munitions, firebombs, and anything that attacks an area vs. a single individual.

Now I don't want Hamas to surround themselves with civilians, but something tells me that they won't be stopping anytime soon.

Therein lies the tragedy.

 

[Islam Imamate]

A sarin gas attack is not justified in any war. It's a war crime and I'm against it. I'm against Israel using cluster munitions, firebombs, and anything that attacks an area vs. a single individual.

Now I don't want Hamas to surround themselves with civilians, but something tells me that they won't be stopping anytime soon.

Therein lies the tragedy.

So going back to a previous example, if one Hamas foot soldier is sniping at Israeli soldiers from a residential building with 500 civilians and the IDF brings it down do you think the IDF bears any blame for those civilian deaths?

 

[haysus31]

From Haaretz
Israel-Hamas War Day 168 |

'If We Need To, We Will Do It Alone, Without U.S. Support': Netanyahu Challenges Blinken During Israel Visit on Rafah Operation​

 

[Strychnine]

So going back to a previous example, if one Hamas foot soldier is sniping at Israeli soldiers from a residential building with 500 civilians and the IDF brings it down do you think the IDF bears any blame for those civilian deaths?

In that instance, yes.


But I don't run Israel.

 

[Islam Imamate]

In that instance, yes.

Well that's a start.

But I don't run Israel.

And here I thought you were part of the emergency war cabinet. Carry on then.

 

[haysus31]

Without US support.
The esteemed and honorable gentleman comes always as a friend and gets this kind of disrespect. What will the economy of the Israelii nation be when no one in their right mind comes to visit. Ask your friends in Israel what's up with their economy when a good portion of their work force are reservist called to duty for a forever war.

 

[haysus31]

Prime Minister Benjamin
Netanyahu said on Friday that
he informed visiting U.S
secretary that Israel will assault
Rafah with or without U.S.
support."I told him that I hope
we will do it with the support of
the U.S., but if we have to - we
will do it alone," Netanyahu said
in a social media video post

 

[haysus31]

Secretary of State has to have the worst job possible. This man is like a advisor in a mafia movie pleading with his friend to think of the future while the guy he is advising won't listen. How may hours of this man's life has been spent on airplanes running back amd forth pleading for the war horse to listen to reason please. The man is running on empty I'm sure in a state o exhaustion.i pray he convinces them to find reason.

 

[tastaylvr]

Yeah, I'm wrong because that has NEVER happened in any war anywhere.

You are wrong when you use a movie as an example. Why can't you admit this?

It's also comical that you went from "wide spread" use to arguing that it has happened at least once. If it was that prevalent then you wouldn't need to resort to linking a fucking scene from a movie. FOH with this nonsense.

 

[tastaylvr]

I'm not justifying any overkill by Israel. I'm just against Hamas putting on baby Bjorn's and crying when they get shot at by Israel.

But Israel MUST let him go even though women were raped and slaughtered at a peace concert FOR him, then their bodies paraded through the streets, spat on, and he took a around a hundred people as hostages.


Yes. Israel must let him go.

Do you understand that you are blaming Americans for 9/11 right?

It's comical that you can't see how your logic can be used in other scenarios too..

 

[tastaylvr]

But @Strychnine seems to disagree with that part and even seemingly justifies over-aggression with reference to the Oct 7th attack.

So I think its only natural to ask, what is the limit? Can the IDF deploy chemical weapons in Gaza and be blameless because of Hamas' brutality on Oct 7th? I doubt you would agree with that but I think its the logical conclusion of what he's arguing.

Just as occupation and apartheid cannot be a justification for "by any means necessary" neither can fighting terrorists. Otherwise Hamas supporters can say that endless occupation, displacement, and apartheid is the fault of Israel and every civilian death on Oct 7th is the fault of the occupiers. In fact that is exactly what they do say and its repugnant.

The scariest part in this conflict is that people seem to have accepted the fact that there isn't an upper limit. 500k more could die and it still be the fault of Hamas

 

[Halge]

That's not what I said, why can't you engage with what I'm saying?

You just really, really want him to say sarin gas would be okay, so you can strawman that instead of discussing, you know, reality.

 

[Strychnine]

You are wrong when you use a movie as an example. Why can't you admit this?

It's also comical that you went from "wide spread" use to arguing that it has happened at least once. If it was that prevalent then you wouldn't need to resort to linking a fucking scene from a movie. FOH with this nonsense.

I'm not wrong.

It has happened in every war since time immemorial. Just because a movie shows that it happened doesn't make it not true.

It is what it is.

 

[Strychnine]

Do you understand that you are blaming Americans for 9/11 right?

It's comical that you can't see how your logic can be used in other scenarios too..

If that's what you got out of that, then you do you.

 

[BAM]

Collateral damage is unavoidable but I don't think Israel is not responsible for how it conducts the war.

I don't think its an accident that the Israelis pushed civilians to the border with Egypt and then we had whispers of expulsion leaking from the Israeli government. I think if they were given the greenlight by Biden and Sisi the plan would've been to expel most Gazans into the Sinai permanently and presumably some posters like the aforementioned one would be okay with that.

From Israel's POV, it would probably solve a lot of their problems, but I'm not signing on for that. Not everything is about what Israel wants.

 

[DEVILsSON]

Not sure if you all have seen this survey...

So tell me again how Palestinians don't support Hamas and the atrocities they committed...

Would you agree to live side by side with ISIS, Al Queda, or any other extremist group without security measures? This is especially for those who are convinced that Hamas cannot be defeated or removed ...

Over 70% of Palestinians approve of Hamas invasion on Oct.7, recent poll shows - All Arab News

93% don’t believe Hamas committed war crimes against Israeli civilians

allarab.news

"Image Description Over 70% of Palestinians approve of Hamas invasion on Oct.7, recent poll shows 93% don’t believe Hamas committed war crimes against Israeli civilians Share this article by All Arab News Staff | March 21, 2024 Image Description Hamas supporters take part in a protest in support of the people of Gaza, in Hebron, West Bank, December 1, 2023. (Photo: Wisam Haslmaoun/Flash90) A broad majority of Palestinians in the West Bank and the Gaza Strip approve of the Hamas invasion and massacre on October 7 of last year, a recent poll published by the Palestinian Center for Policy and Survey Research (PSR) shows.

The support for Hamas’ decision to launch its attack rose in the Gaza Strip (57-71%) and slightly dropped in the West Bank (82-71%) since the last PSR poll in December. Along with deeply ingrained hate for Israel and Jews among many Palestinians, a possible explanation for the exceptionally high support lies in the revived international attention for the Palestinian cause since last October. Despite a decline in Hamas’ popularity in the West Bank and the Gaza Strip, some three-quarters of respondents said they thought the attention from the war could lead to recognition of Palestinian statehood.

Data regarding popular support for Hamas as a political group were somewhat contradictory. When respondents were asked which political party they support, only 34% said Hamas, down from 43% in the last poll. But just before the war, this figure was at only 22%. Regardless, 70% of those surveyed said they were satisfied with the role played by Hamas during the war, with 61% also approving of the role played by its Gaza leader, Yahya Sinwar.

In comparison, only 14% said they were satisfied with the conduct of Palestinian Authority (PA) President Mahmoud Abbas. Continuing with the contradictory responses, 59% of respondents, including 52% in the Gaza Strip, said that Hamas should be in control of the enclave after the war ends. With the U.S. continuing to support a “revitalized” PA to take over the Gaza Strip after the war, only 11% said they want the PA to rule under its current leadership, and 13% selected the PA even with a leadership change. Despite broad support for the Hamas’ attacks, 91% of the Palestinians said they did not think the terror group committed war crimes – but 94% think Israel did. In addition, 80% said they didn’t watch “videos, shown by international news outlets, showing acts committed by Hamas against Israeli civilians,” as PSR phrased it.

However, the research center didn’t ask if Gazans saw the same videos on social media, where they were widely disseminated by Hamas terrorists on Oct. 7. When asked if they believed that Hamas had committed the atrocities shown in the videos, 93% of the Palestinians surveyed said they did not think so. PSR also asked respondents who they thought would win the ongoing war in the Gaza Strip. About 64% said that Hamas would win, slightly down from 70% three months ago. Among Gazans, the number was slightly lower at 56% but it increased from December, when only 50% thought Hamas would defeat Israel.

In the West Bank, the belief that Hamas will win is substantially higher. Only 3% said Israel would win the war, while 19% of Gazans said Israel would win. In addition, 69% of West Bank respondents are convinced that Hamas will emerge victorious, down from 83% in December. The PSR is an independent nonprofit institution and think tank for policy analysis and academic research based in Ramallah, the West Bank capital of the PA. The poll was conducted among 1,580 Palestinian adults, of whom 830 were interviewed face to face in the West Bank (in 83 locations) and 750 in the Gaza Strip (in 75 locations), with a margin of error of +/-3%."

 

[BAM]

Not sure if you all have seen this survey...

So tell me again how Palestinians don't support Hamas and the atrocities they committed...

Would you agree to live side by side with ISIS, Al Queda, or any other extremist group without security measures? This is especially for those who are convinced that Hamas cannot be defeated or removed ...

Over 70% of Palestinians approve of Hamas invasion on Oct.7, recent poll shows - All Arab News

93% don’t believe Hamas committed war crimes against Israeli civilians

allarab.news

If this graph is true, 81% of those that watched the videos saw no atrocities re Oct 7... then we have a big problem. Then you can't have self-determination for Palestine, not one state not two. There is no solution but disenfranchisement.

Palestine would have to be deredicalised over generations. And we're all perpetually stuck in this loop for generations. I hope its wrong. I want an offramp at some point where we don't have to babysit and deal with terrorism and local protest.

Public Opinion Poll No (91) | PCPSR

www.pcpsr.org