How are so many amazing grapplers unable to take the fight to the ground?

Because the other guy doesn't want it to go to the ground?

lmfao at the first post wrecking the thread.

Did it ever occur to you TS that just because someone like Max Holloway likes to hit people in the face that he hasn't spend hundreds of hours of his life grappling as a champion of a grappling based combat sport?
 
He KO'd Edgar standing, didn't take Cub down, didn't take Moicano down, didn't take Guida down. Have you guys actually watched him fight? He prefers to strike, he uses his BJJ to take advantage of openings.

Well that is the strange part. Why is he so focused on the striking more? He should focus on developing the wrestling much more than the striking. He's maybe the best BJJer in the UFC.
 
So its ridiculous to believe that Ortega could be the best BJJer in the UFC right now?
 
Well that is the strange part. Why is he so focused on the striking more? He should focus on developing the wrestling much more than the striking. He's maybe the best BJJer in the UFC.

How do we know that? Has he ever competed? His striking is what got him in a position to fight for a title.
 
The problem is that BJJ is now table stakes. I don't see a BJJ focused fighter ever becoming champion again. The same is increasingly happening to wrestling... All the top fighters have solid defensive wrestling, its the differentiation of the striking that is making the difference. Khabib is a notable exception.

Ummm... actually, Holloway is the "notable exception." Every other champ is a wrestler.
 
Max Holloway's TDD is really underrated. We should be giving him credit instead of taking credit away from Ortega.
People should be doing both, actually. What takedown efficiency did Ortega have going into the Holloway fight? 14%? 18%? Even if you're only fighting fighters with solid TDD, that's a ridiculously low value for a grappling oriented fighter.
 
Ummm... actually, Holloway is the "notable exception." Every other champ is a wrestler.
But how many of them are actually using their wrestling offensively?
Cejudo- yes
Dillashaw- striking almost exclusively for a while now
Holloway- striker
Khabib- yes
T-Wood- exclusively striking
Whittaker- striker
Romero(since he did beat whittaker)- striking predominately
DC- striking predominately, lots of dirty boxing also
Gus- striker
Jones- i'm not sure he's taken anybody down since chael, at least not done so and kept them there.

It's almost like wrestling is the only martial art that is accepted as a sport, thus it brings in much higher level athletes than other martial arts, and then these higher level athletes who initially dominate using their wrestling realize that striking is just easier and more effective.

Just my 2 cents.
 
The thing about bjj is you are supposed to engage. Unlike wrestling whereas not getting taken down/controlled is half the sport and “refusing to engage” is simply playing defensively.

Hell, you aren’t even allowed to “slam” people in bjj, whereas as long as you don’t make a fist you can essentially smack/hit people in wrestling (or force an elbow into their throat and forearm across their face).
 
But how many of them are actually using their wrestling offensively?
Cejudo- yes
Dillashaw- striking almost exclusively for a while now
Holloway- striker
Khabib- yes
T-Wood- exclusively striking
Whittaker- striker
Romero(since he did beat whittaker)- striking predominately
DC- striking predominately, lots of dirty boxing also
Gus- striker
Jones- i'm not sure he's taken anybody down since chael, at least not done so and kept them there.

It's almost like wrestling is the only martial art that is accepted as a sport, thus it brings in much higher level athletes than other martial arts, and then these higher level athletes who initially dominate using their wrestling realize that striking is just easier and more effective.

Just my 2 cents.

Without wrestling though you won’t be able to grapple (they’ll stuff you and remain standing) or strike (as they’ll take you down like khabib).

You therefore need elite wrestling in mma (or fighting in general) in order to dictate where the fight takes place. You then can specialise in grappling (khabib/askren) or striking (tj, mm, cejudo) or be dangerous at both (jones, Cormier, Yoel, gsp).
 
You'd think that someone great on the ground would make it a priority to be great at getting the fight to the ground. But that's just not the case. Ortega, Maia, etc. Why is this weakness so common?

This is the kind of thing that should only happen in TMAs. BJJ is TMAing itself with this kind of refusal to adapt. It's becoming "old".

How is Maia unable to take the fight to the ground? Jesus fuckkng Christ, do you guys have 2 fight memory or what? Maia took down every single wrestler he faced except the elite of the elite, twood Colby and usman... how many guys have taken these fighters down? Maia was a takedown machine at ww before facing twood, now he can’t take people down? Lmfao
 
Without wrestling though you won’t be able to grapple (they’ll stuff you and remain standing) or strike (as they’ll take you down like khabib).

You therefore need elite wrestling in mma (or fighting in general) in order to dictate where the fight takes place. You then can specialise in grappling (khabib/askren) or striking (tj, mm, cejudo) or be dangerous at both (jones, Cormier, Yoel, gsp).
I'm not denying that at all. I just find it funny how we've kinda come full circle on this. For millennia, striking arts were the predominant martial systems, then UFC, and more specifically, BJJ, turned that on its head. But now that everybody has high level takedown defense, they're all going back to striking. It's too risky and expends too much energy to force a guy to the ground who has a working knowledge of how to prevent it.

On a side note though, it's extremely important to understand that wrestling as practiced for MMA is vastly different from what is done in the actual sport of wrestling. In MMA, we use the term purely when talking about the takedown/takedown defense battle, but there's tons of high level wrestlers who don't have great shots or great tdd. Maybe they're good at scrambling or reversals instead. Those types would fair poorly, imo, against strikers or bjj-ers
 
I hate it bjj guys with terrible stand up just try to stand and trade and die on the feet rather than fight their fight
 
I'm not denying that at all. I just find it funny how we've kinda come full circle on this. For millennia, striking arts were the predominant martial systems, then UFC, and more specifically, BJJ, turned that on its head. But now that everybody has high level takedown defense, they're all going back to striking. It's too risky and expends too much energy to force a guy to the ground who has a working knowledge of how to prevent it.

On a side note though, it's extremely important to understand that wrestling as practiced for MMA is vastly different from what is done in the actual sport of wrestling. In MMA, we use the term purely when talking about the takedown/takedown defense battle, but there's tons of high level wrestlers who don't have great shots or great tdd. Maybe they're good at scrambling or reversals instead. Those types would fair poorly, imo, against strikers or bjj-ers
You don't know what you're talking about wrestling has been just as prevalent across cultures and history.
 
You'd think that someone great on the ground would make it a priority to be great at getting the fight to the ground. But that's just not the case. Ortega, Maia, etc. Why is this weakness so common?

This is the kind of thing that should only happen in TMAs. BJJ is TMAing itself with this kind of refusal to adapt. It's becoming "old".

I agree.

(copy/paste from another thread):

Powerful takedown skills (from wrestling) is the last missing piece of a complete BJJ art, and it appears as if most BJJ schools nowadays have not recognized this missing part in order to evolve BJJ to the next level.

BJJ was a descendant of Judo and Japanese Jujutsu, so it relied on Judo for takedowns. While Judo has great throws, its takedown arsenal is very limited compared to wrestling, as modern high level MMA competitions have proven over and over.

In order for BJJ to evolve as a complete grappling martial art, it needs to fuse wrestling and make it a fundamental part of the fighting philosophy and training curriculum.
 
You don't know what you're talking about wrestling has been just as prevalent across cultures and history.
No, at least nothing remotely similar to what we consider wrestling today. Wrestling being "the oldest martial art" is one of the greatest myths in the world. Ancient Pankration was a NHB fight to the death, allowing biting, scratching, headbutts, and all manner of strikes, as well as grappling. Grappling systems were often taught in the military throughout history due to the inclusion of armor, but only to unbalance or knock down your foe before finishing them with your weapon. Various tribes and cultures have some sort of grappling-esque sport, but generally these were heavily regulated to remove nearly all elements of actual combat (i.e. sumo).

Striking arts, on the other hand, have existed the world over with very few changes to their original systems, whether you're looking at muay thai, karate, the 1000's of systems of kung fu, etc, and don't even get me started on boxing existing in some form in EVERY culture stretching back as far as written history goes.
 
The thing about bjj is you are supposed to engage. Unlike wrestling whereas not getting taken down/controlled is half the sport and “refusing to engage” is simply playing defensively.

Hell, you aren’t even allowed to “slam” people in bjj, whereas as long as you don’t make a fist you can essentially smack/hit people in wrestling (or force an elbow into their throat and forearm across their face).
If I am mistaken, forgive my American ignorance, but I am assuming you are referring to collegiate or freestyle wrestling, as both are extremely prevalent in the UFC. I can tell you first hand that "not engaging" in wrestling will get you stalling call. In my experience, stalling calls come fast too. Our refs were brutal about that.
 
Last edited:
Back
Top