How did Mac Danzig build enough muscle as a vegan?

KK, it's not nice to pick on the "special" kids like that.
 
lol Alright that genuinely got a good laugh out of me.
 
Maybe there are a lot more elite vegan / vegetarian athletes than we thought (I just did a quick google search):

From: http://www.famousveggie.com/peoplenew.cfm
Carl Lewis Olympic Track Star vegan
Brendan Brazier ironman triathlete vegan
Edwin Moses Olympic champion vegetarian
Hank Aaron Baseball player vegetarian
Joe Namath football player vegetarian
John Salley Toronto Raptors vegetarian
Leroy Burrell Olympic champion vegetarian
Martina Navratilova tennis player vegan
Ruth Heidrich 3 time Ironman vegan

---

From: http://www.empowermentresources.com/info2/realities1989.html

Athletic Performance

* Only man to win ironman Triathlon more than twice:
o Dave Scott, 6 time winner
o Food choices of Dave Scott: Vegetarian
* World record holder for 24 hour triathlon (swim 4.8 miles, cycle 185 miles, run 52.5 miles):
o Sixto Linares
o Food choices of Sixto Linares: Strict vegetarian
* Athlete who most totally dominated Olympic sport in track and field history:
o Edwin Moses,undefeated in 8 years, 400 meter hurdles
o Food choices of Edwin Moses: Vegetarian
* Other notable vegetarian athletes:
o Stan Price: World record-bench press
o Robert Sweetgall: World's premier ultra-distance walker
o Paavo Nurmi: 20 World's records in distance running, 9 Olympic medals
o Bill Pickering: World record swimming English channel
o Murray Rose: World records 400 and 1500 meter freestyles
o Andreas Cahling: Winner Mr International body building championships
o Roy Hilligan: Winner Mr America body building championships
o Pierreo Verot: World's record for downhill endurance skiing
o Estelle Gray and Cherly Marek: World's record for cross country tandem cycling
o James and Jonathon deDonato: World's record for distance butterfly stroke swimming
o Ridgely Abele: Winner of 8 national championships in Karate,including U.S. Karate Association World Championships

---

In the end...maybe the most important factor is the source of where you get your food. I think on a whole...most vegans and vegitarians care about where their food comes from whereas most meat eaters are content eating wonder bread, meat and cow's milk full of hormones, and other processed products.

As for why more athletes aren't adopting a vegan / vegetarian approach...maybe because it's so hard to maintain. Or...maybe because a rare+ prime rib or braised short ribs is so hard to resist (at least for me).


w0cyru01 said:
I don't care whether or not someone is vegan.

But,

if the vegan lifestyle would produce better athletes, why aren't more athletes vegan? Athletes are paid MILLIONS to be healthy and in the top condition/shape. If the vegan way was that much better you would have more vegan athletes. I imagine most athletes have their meals prepared by team nutritionists so they don't have to worry about that as well as everything else in their lives.

If you say medical science just hasn't caught up yet, then you can't claim that veganism is better for athletes. Since this board is DIRECTED at athletes on all stages, saying a vegan diet is better is not true for people here.
Click to expand...
 
Er, how many of those athletes were vegan when they competed?

And the vegetarian ones don't count for purposes of the discussion of vegan lifestyles. Completely different set of guidelines.

In the end...maybe the most important factor is the source of where you get your food. I think on a whole...most vegans and vegitarians care about where their food comes from whereas most meat eaters are content eating wonder bread, meat and cow's milk full of hormones, and other processed products.
Click to expand...

That's a myth. I've met vegans who survive on shit like cupcakes. They're lured to the whole "organic" thing, but very few of them understand what things are actually organic, and what things actually are not better in organic form than processed.

The unhealthiness that is American Culture doesn't end typically when one chooses to become vegetarian or vegan more times than not.
 
KK, quik, post a clinical trial proving humans can't consume 30 lbs of grass clippings a day.

*starts stop watch*
 
Yeah...it's tough finding a list of purely vegans.

Well...I think the vegans that you met are irrelevant to this discussion since they probably aren't athletes. Besides...if they are eating cupcakes...it better be made from whole grains (and I guess no eggs either)...if not...they are probably aren't true vegans.

At the very least, it is possible to be a vegan and be an Olympic level athlete.

Personally...a more vegetarian diet with the occasional steak, prime rib, and braised short ribs suits me just fine.



King Kabuki said:
Er, how many of those athletes were vegan when they competed?

And the vegetarian ones don't count for purposes of the discussion of vegan lifestyles. Completely different set of guidelines.



That's a myth. I've met vegans who survive on shit like cupcakes. They're lured to the whole "organic" thing, but very few of them understand what things are actually organic, and what things actually are not better in organic form than processed.

The unhealthiness that is American Culture doesn't end typically when one chooses to become vegetarian or vegan more times than not.
Click to expand...
 
KK, quik, post a clinical trial proving humans can't consume 30 lbs of grass clippings a day.

*starts stop watch*
Click to expand...

lol I don't think I need to prove that.

At the very least, it is possible to be a vegan and be an Olympic level athlete.
Click to expand...

You do know Carl Lewis was eventually busted for drugs right?

Plus, you didn't answer my question about how many of them were vegan WHILE competing.

And the vegans I've spoken to are very relevant to your statement that "vegans and vegetarians"...not vegan athletes specifically or vegetarian for that matter, care about where their food comes from more than their meat eating counterparts. If they're more concerned it's generally because they're looking to avoid certain things, such is the nature of restriction. My point was that the idea that they're somehow more health-conscious because of that is not true generally.

P.S. - I've also specified that the major concern as far as veganism and athletics is that it's not viable for males specifically. Soy consumption for females isn't a detraction. There have been noted successful cases of females doing fine with vegan diets.
 
suger and processed food etc surely affect the insuline. but fat that comes from dairy and meat raise the cholesterol, and fats from vegetables lowers it (exept coconut fat that is also a "Saturated fat"). although coconut fat dosn't have the same negativ affect on the body that meat and dairy has.
first link I found

and for soy changing the hormons sure it does, but it is alot more to it then some here might think.

I have alot of information on the positiv effects that soy have but it's all in swedish and im not mad enough to translate it =P.

as I was saying, can you work well on a diet with meat and dairy, of course. can you work just as well on a vegan diet, most likely. but as a pro athleat you still have to think about what you eat no mather what.

and as long as you do that and don't take it to the extrem (you won't work well if you only eat meat and eggs, and you won't work well if you only eat cookies (even if they are vegan)) then the human body is quit cooperative and functions on different food sources.

but in my opinion it is only a real benefit to be vegan if you belive in it, cause I don't think the diet is gonna give you any mystical powers (goes for meat to).
 
vegan said:
suger and processed food etc surely affect the insuline. but fat that comes from dairy and meat raise the cholesterol, and fats from vegetables lowers it (exept coconut fat that is also a "Saturated fat"). although coconut fat dosn't have the same negativ affect on the body that meat and dairy has.
first link I found

and for soy changing the hormons sure it does, but it is alot more to it then some here might think.

I have alot of information on the positiv effects that soy have but it's all in swedish and im not mad enough to translate it =P.

as I was saying, can you work well on a diet with meat and dairy, of course. can you work just as well on a vegan diet, most likely. but as a pro athleat you still have to think about what you eat no mather what.

and as long as you do that and don't take it to the extrem (you won't work well if you only eat meat and eggs, and you won't work well if you only eat cookies (even if they are vegan)) then the human body is quit cooperative and functions on different food sources.

but in my opinion it is only a real benefit to be vegan if you belive in it, cause I don't think the diet is gonna give you any mystical powers (goes for meat to).
Click to expand...



Cholesterol is something that not many people understand. More people that eat low cholesterol foods have cases of heart disease than people eating high cholesterol foods.
Trans fats are what is the enemy. Saturated fat is certainly not the villain you think it is...

http://www.mercola.com/2002/aug/17/saturated_fat1.htm
 
/me hugs his container of Smart Balance and wishes the trans-fats would go away.
 
King Kabuki said:
Er, how many of those athletes were vegan when they competed?

And the vegetarian ones don't count for purposes of the discussion of vegan lifestyles. Completely different set of guidelines.



That's a myth. I've met vegans who survive on shit like cupcakes. They're lured to the whole "organic" thing, but very few of them understand what things are actually organic, and what things actually are not better in organic form than processed.

The unhealthiness that is American Culture doesn't end typically when one chooses to become vegetarian or vegan more times than not.
Click to expand...

Carl Lewis has stated that he was a vegan during the best years of his track career. Now, that is the only athlete that I am aware of who has stated that he was a vegan during his prime.

Also, if you are scared of using Soy for fear of getting man boobs then you can always use rice, hemp, or pea proteins. I would also like to state that I do eat meat but I just wanted to put forth that meat isn't the only source of complete proteins. I know that you get more protein per serving in meat than you do with plant based products but you can still get the protein you need if you are vegan.

Also, here is a link to an interview with vegan strength coach Robert Dos Remedios.
http://www.t-nation.com/readTopic.do?id=1587252

On the second page is where he talks about being a vegan and how much soy he uses and how the phytoestrogen has had no effect on him and he has been eating a lot of it for the last 18 years. He is 245 and is the current NSCA Strength Coach of the Year.
 
I don't think the point was a fear of man boobs. I think the point was that estrogen inhibits testosterone production, which in turn inhibits muscle development.

Therefore soy, though high in protein, inhibits muscle growth, making it a poor choice (in men).

Though I could have misunderstood something.
 
Saith said:
I don't think the point was a fear of man boobs. I think the point was that estrogen inhibits testosterone production, which in turn inhibits muscle development.

Therefore soy, though high in protein, inhibits muscle growth, making it a poor choice (in men).

Though I could have misunderstood something.
Click to expand...

Fair enough, but the S&C coach Robert Dos Remedios states that he has been eating high levels of Soy for 18 years and he has noticed no ill side affects from it.
 
Also, if you are scared of using Soy for fear of getting man boobs then you can always use rice, hemp, or pea proteins. I would also like to state that I do eat meat but I just wanted to put forth that meat isn't the only source of complete proteins. I know that you get more protein per serving in meat than you do with plant based products but you can still get the protein you need if you are vegan.

Also, here is a link to an interview with vegan strength coach Robert Dos Remedios.
http://www.t-nation.com/readTopic.do?id=1587252

On the second page is where he talks about being a vegan and how much soy he uses and how the phytoestrogen has had no effect on him and he has been eating a lot of it for the last 18 years. He is 245 and is the current NSCA Strength Coach of the Year.
Click to expand...

Yes yes, that interview I've already made wayward reference to. Mr. Dos Remedios is a little misguided as he uses the "well gorillas don't eat meat" example, which is not only misleading but false, as gorillas both eat protein rich bugs all day long, an on occasion eat each other.

Furthermore, he also admits in that Interview that he's never trained a male vegan athlete. So again, he himself is the only example he has of being a male vegan, and remotely athletic, but he's not a competing high-level athlete.

I'm not saying it's impossible to do myself, I'm saying it's extremely difficult and thus far, not optimal. And also saying that the cases of successful vegan athletes can more likely be attributed to the person's genetics, than the vegan diet itself being successful, which makes it not good when non-athlete vegans proclaim it can (and should) be attempted/done. They're speaking in an area they don't know about for certain, yet all agree an athlete must be careful. Well, as a male athlete, being careful, I'm certainly not going to pick what is the absolute most difficult way to go about things.

Fair enough, but the S&C coach Robert Dos Remedios states that he has been eating high levels of Soy for 18 years and he has noticed no ill side affects from it.
Click to expand...

Either he's not telling the truth, or he's the exception to the rule. Either way you don't go about recommending things like that based on an exception.
 
I love the way kk just simplyfies everthing with the argument "he might be an exception".
 
vegan said:
I love the way kk just simplyfies everthing with the argument "he might be an exception".
Click to expand...
As I am vegan as well, I do agree with you on a lot of stuff. That being said, KK does not always simplify things with the simple answer "He might be an exception."

I know he did say that about me a little bit, but no big deal. Lets just end the thread with the fact that whether you're vegan or not, you can be a successful athlete. It takes proper nutrition and proper training habits. It's a little dumbed down solution, but none the less, we can put it to rest.

One thing anyone can always do is to try out a vegan lifestyle with an open mind. See what it does for them. Like I've mentioned a number of times, it worked out for the best for me as it did with my brother and wife as well.

EDIT:

Oh yeah - to go back a few posts. Carl Lewis did have his most successful part of his career as a vegan, yes. Of course we know how steroids play a role and what not, but whatever - we can't really throw that into anyones equation because there is a lot of use out there. Who cares, that's another topic, ha! After all, if you're using gear, you still have to eat properly and train. It doesn't create muscle magically.

Sauce is boss though, haha!
 
vegan said:
I love the way kk just simplyfies everthing with the argument "he might be an exception".
Click to expand...

I believe his simplification was a response to your simplification of "It can happen, so it must work for everyone."

Evangelize less and maybe you'll understand more.
 
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