How Good was Cejudo Really?

Madmick said:
I know. I don't care about his Olympic career. It's impressive, but it doesn't mean much towards the GOAT of combat sports. When discussing the greatest boxers of all time, nobody wastes words arguing about their Olympic medals.
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It's fine if you don't care about his wrestling career. That's your prerogative. wrestling is a combat sport, though, so it is relevant when the criteria is "combat sports athlete. That's a pretty bad analogy considering that you're talking about professional vs amateur competition in the same sport. MMA =/= a higher level of competition in the same sport as Olympic wrestling.

You drunk?
 
Canned Tuna said:
It's fine if you don't care about his wrestling career. That's your prerogative. wrestling is a combat sport, though, so it is relevant when the criteria is "combat sports athlete. That's a pretty bad analogy considering that you're talking about professional vs amateur competition in the same sport. MMA =/= a higher level of competition in the same sport as Olympic wrestling.

You drunk?
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No, I'm maintaining perspective. MMA is the ultimate combat sport. It's the one that subsumes them all.

There are plenty of BJJ, Freestyle Wrestling, Greco Wrestling, and Folkstyle Wrestling champions who have won the ADCC. Two-sport champions? One day a Judoka will probably achieve it with some cross-training. Teddy Riner already would have if he had. Do we parcel K-1, Muay Thai, International Kickboxing, and American Kickboxing styles? What about Shootfighting orgs like Pancrase or Shooto back in the day? Bare-Knuckle championships? What if some athlete collects a world title in a relatively uncompetitive style like full contact Kung-Fu or Karate, or something even more obscure like Jeet Kune Do or Aikido, before going on to become serious in his life, and eventually ascending to a UFC belt?

Meanwhile, until just the past half decade or so, throughout the history of MMA, nearly every MMA Champion was first elite in some other combat sport. Even to this day most come from specializations in other combat sports. Wrestling is the most successful base of all. It's impressive to be a champion in two, but is it as impressive as a far more enduring career as a more dominant champion in a more competitive weight class in just one-- especially the ultimate one? Of course not.

GSP is the GOAT combat athlete.
 
Ireally hope he doesn't stay retired, he's gotten so damn good at fighting it's crazy. He mixes up his striking and wrestling so perfectly and has heart for days. If he would have started mma a bit earlier and stayed for a bit longer I'm sure he would be talked about as one of the goats of mma. DC said it best, he's is a winner.
 
He has three good wins in his career and his win over Mighty Mouse could easily have been a draw or gone the other way.

Overrated.
 
scytheavatar said:
TJ is old and probably will not be in his prime on return....... Cejudo needs to fight Yan/Sterling/Sandhagen if he wants to be considered Bantamweight GOAT.
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I think he would have to win atleast 2-3 more title defences, preferably against those you named, before he could have a great argument for Bantamweight GOAT. But like he said, he's not the best fighter ever, but I agree he does have a great case for best "combat athlete" ever.

His resume is damn impressive. Henry always annoyed me outside the cage, but after Saturday I am a fan. I hope we see him come back down the road for some type of super fight. Maybe once Yan gets the title and holds it for awhile, Cejudo comes back to dethrone him and make him bend the knee.
 
ramair455 said:
Just because you beat a GOAT, doesnt make you a GOAT.
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This.
Aside from skill and ability, it’s about your resume and accomplishments. Cejudo has a good resume for sure, and is a very good fighter. But there are asterisks next to a few of those wins. Meanwhile, how many times did MM defend the FLW belt? How many times did Dom defend the BW belt? What was Fedor’s streak and how many times did he defend his belts? Anderson? Jones? GSP? Aldo?
These are the things that put a fighter in the GOAT discussion, and Cejudo just isn’t there.
 
The hard thing for people to parse with regards to GOAT status; is it related to the business of fighting or the art of fighting?
I don't think the two cross streams very often, especially in the superfight era.
You can see it in boxing now, with regards to Canelo. He is popular and revenue-producing at the highest level. But is he in the GOAT conversation? Even though he's got titles over multiple weightclasses? No, not even close. He's a redhead from Mexico who has a face that can sell beer and t-shirts.
 
Madmick said:
No, I'm maintaining perspective. MMA is the ultimate combat sport. It's the one that subsumes them all.

There are plenty of BJJ, Freestyle Wrestling, Greco Wrestling, and Folkstyle Wrestling champions who have won the ADCC. Two-sport champions? One day a Judoka will probably achieve it with some cross-training. Teddy Riner already would have if he had. Do we parcel K-1, Muay Thai, International Kickboxing, and American Kickboxing styles? What about Shootfighting orgs like Pancrase or Shooto back in the day? Bare-Knuckle championships? What if some athlete collects a world title in a relatively uncompetitive style like full contact Kung-Fu or Karate, or something even more obscure like Jeet Kune Do or Aikido, before going on to become serious in his life, and eventually ascending to a UFC belt?

Meanwhile, until just the past half decade or so, throughout the history of MMA, nearly every MMA Champion was first elite in some other combat sport. Even to this day most come from specializations in other combat sports. Wrestling is the most successful base of all. It's impressive to be a champion in two, but is it as impressive as a far more enduring career as a more dominant champion in a more competitive weight class in just one-- especially the ultimate one? Of course not.

GSP is the GOAT combat athlete.
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It's totally reasonable to maintain that MMA trumps other combat sports and that the MMA GOAT is the combat sports GOAT.

Likening being a champion under two slightly different rulesets of the same sport to being a champion in two very different sports is a little silly. You know full well that your second paragraph is a mixture of a false equivalency and a slippery slope. I already addressed other two sport champions that have been MMA champions and the same thing applies to guys who are two sport champs in different grappling styles: I think it's an obvious truth that a UFC championship and Olympic gold are a greater combination of achievement in two sports than any other combat athlete I can think of.

All that being said, I certainly won't argue against GSP's (or Fedor's imo) claim as combat sports GOAT by virtue of being the mixed fighting GOAT.
 
He really only lost one fight in DJ that he avenged.

Everyone who watched him knows he beat Benavidez.

I like Cejudo, i'd be more than happy to see him live a healthy life in retirement.
 
Canned Tuna said:
This is the vid of the presser. The first few minutes include Henry talking about retiring and he says (paraphrased):
He wasn't the greatest Olympic wrestler ever and wasn't the greatest fighter ever, but he went out on top in both and thinks the combination gives him a claim to being the greatest combat sports athlete.

I've never really been a big fan of his, but I think he makes a good case for himself to definitely be in a discussion of GOAT combat athletes. What do you think?
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I dunno without actually beating DJ...his whole champion status is in question to me

To me
He didnt beat DJ...therefore he doesnt get the shot at 135 and therefore not a double champion

DJ won that fight most corrupt decision of the modern era

Cejudo will be forgotten by the end of 2021 while DJ will live forever
 
I wonder how CCC vs TJ would've gone down @ 135.. I mean that would've been an interesting fight, too bad TJ screwed up.
 
Paolo Delutis said:
I dunno without actually beating DJ...his whole champion status is in question to me

To me
He didnt beat DJ...therefore he doesnt get the shot at 135 and therefore not a double champion

DJ won that fight most corrupt decision of the modern era

Cejudo will be forgotten by the end of 2021 while DJ will live forever
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By "most corrupt decision of the modern era" do you mean it was extremely corrupt because it was done intentionally for DJ to lose the belt or do you mean it was the worst decision in the modern era? If you want to believe that there was a conspiracy to dethrone DJ, that's your business. It wasn't even close to the worst decision in modern MMA, though.

I think you're completely wrong about which one of them will be remembered. I think it's likely that neither willl go down as an ATG. if only one of them does, I don't think it will be MM. It's easy to discredit his level of competition and retiring with two belts is a big deal.
 
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Pretty fuckin good. I think he's overlooked because he's essentially a midget. Beating Dominic wasn't that impressive because Dom was off for so long and the game moved forward while he thought his dumb herky jerky footwork would work in 2020. Henry showed massive improvement by avenging his loss to MM and beating super pharma TJ. Beating Marlon during his win streak is also pretty impressive. I really want to see Henry fight at 145 just to test the waters but it's unlikely.

The guy is super cringey but you can really see that he's kind hearted behind all that silly shit he does. I liked him as champ.
 
Reydereyes said:
Ireally hope he doesn't stay retired, he's gotten so damn good at fighting it's crazy. He mixes up his striking and wrestling so perfectly and has heart for days. If he would have started mma a bit earlier and stayed for a bit longer I'm sure he would be talked about as one of the goats of mma. DC said it best, he's is a winner.
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I think his reaction time working with Neuroforce is legit. His fight IQ seems pretty good and he kept his speed at 135.
 
DJ is better than him, and he got robbed on the r \ematch.
 
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