IG Report to blast FBI

If the Clinton machine, the most formidable political group in modern history, along with the republicans, and the news media, spies and foreign governments, couldn’t find the death blow in 16, it’s not there to be found.

I don't think there's a case to impeach, but I don't doubt that an investigation like this could turn up a few crimes. I mean think about it, Trump has done business in some of the most corrupt countries in the world, been fined for possible money laundering and has been part of thousands of lawsuits - is it really hard to believe that his business ethics are above reproach when it comes to legal matters?

Bill Clinton's investigation started as a land deal and ended up with lying about blowjobs.
 
I think for a lot of people, it's hard to get our heads around how some people are so blase' about the president of the United States being a criminal and the assumption is that it can't be something that people are *generally* OK with--must be that standards are put aside.

I think it's a major problem if the president is a criminal; I'm simply basing my opinion on the '73 and 2000 DOJ directives.

I also don't think a majority of the House or Senate would vote to impeach for a crime that didn't directly effect our democracy or national security. Hey, but I've been wrong before.
 
This seems mind-blowing to me, though I suppose it's just blind tribalism, which can't be explained rationally. We know Russia was giving the campaign illegal help. We know that they met secretly with the campaign. We know that many people involved with the campaign had connections to Russia, and that many lied about it. Those are all uncontroversial statements. You might be more confident in either Trump's intelligence or his ethics than others are and think that what we don't yet know exonerates him, but you can't honestly deny that there is cause for concern.

And, serious question, is it possible in theory for evidence to change your mind on the issue? If so, what would it take?

Serious question, but seeing how Trump seemed to always avoid these meetings himself - do you not think he purposely kept the option of plausible deniability available?

And better yet, what exactly is collusion in a legal sense?
 
I think it's a major problem if the president is a criminal; I'm simply basing my opinion on the '73 and 2000 DOJ directives.

I also don't think a majority of the House or Senate would vote to impeach for a crime that didn't directly effect our democracy or national security. Hey, but I've been wrong before.

I don't think Republicans in Congress will do the right thing under any circumstances. If Trump shot someone on video, he'd deny it, and his supporters would defend him and start investigating the police. But for regular people to just be like, "oh, whatever, it's bad that the president is an immoral, dishonest, crook, but it's not bad enough that anything should actually be done about it," is something that's hard for me to get used to.
 
Serious question, but seeing how Trump seemed to always avoid these meetings himself - do you not think he purposely kept the option of plausible deniability available?

And better yet, what exactly is collusion in a legal sense?

Well, "collusion" is an informal term here. The question is: Was he actively working with Russia or offering anything for their help or were they just trying to help him on their own because they thought they could roll him or just wanted to hurt the country? And, yes, definitely possible that he kept plausible deniability available. That's why we need an investigation. IMO, the lying and the ridiculous attempts to discredit the investigation are bad signs, though (meaning, I think he does expect serious stuff to come out).
 
I don't think Republicans in Congress will do the right thing under any circumstances. If Trump shot someone on video, he'd deny it, and his supporters would defend him and start investigating the police. But for regular people to just be like, "oh, whatever, it's bad that the president is an immoral, dishonest, crook, but it's not bad enough that anything should actually be done about it," is something that's hard for me to get used to.

I partially agree about Congress - the House would be a hard sell for anything short of murder: +40 republicans and most are scared to death to say anything negative about Trump.

I think the Senate would be a bit more pragmatic on the issue.
 
I partially agree about Congress - the House would be a hard sell for anything short of murder: +40 republicans and most are scared to death to say anything negative about Trump.

I think the Senate would be a bit more pragmatic on the issue.

Fair. It's definitely worse in the House. There are some senators who would vote against their party if a strong enough case were presented, but I don't think there are enough of them.
 
I don't think there's a case to impeach, but I don't doubt that an investigation like this could turn up a few crimes. I mean think about it, Trump has done business in some of the most corrupt countries in the world, been fined for possible money laundering and has been part of thousands of lawsuits - is it really hard to believe that his business ethics are above reproach when it comes to legal matters?

Bill Clinton's investigation started as a land deal and ended up with lying about blowjobs.


Like I said, if everyone couldn’t find it already, it’s not there.
 
Like I said, if everyone couldn’t find it already, it’s not there.

When others were looking they didn't have the threat of prosecution hanging over the people they were asking questions of.

Come on dude, he's been completely crooked in his business practices in the past - you can't believe that he suddenly became a model executive.
 
Well this is embarrassing. Another right wing dud.
 
When others were looking they didn't have the threat of prosecution hanging over the people they were asking questions of.

Come on dude, he's been completely crooked in his business practices in the past - you can't believe that he suddenly became a model executive.


Do you have any clue how valuable the death blow to Trump would have been?

Political amateurs, the whole lot of you...
 
That's a poorly loaded question, and no, that's not what's happening here.
There is no threshold for when an investigation starts. There is for searches, detainment, and others, but not for an investigation, which is vague.




Bonus points for being the first person to give the obvious answer. Now do you think personal text messages regarding distaste for one person in an investigation that has resulted in 23 indictments, and 3 guilty pleas, "shocks the conscience?"

Clearly, no.



They had nothing, yet still managed to nail 23 people with criminal charges. Now that's some luck.

I’m not going to argue that mean texts amount to a due process violation, because obviously they don’t. But the texts in this case are smoking gun evidence of pervasive bias - which is indeed a basis for discrediting the investigation. The court can shut it down based on the standard I gave you. On that note, the cat is already out of the bag that the investigation was launched based on a series of pretextual searches and seizures (which, as you know, implicates the Constitution) and “intelligence” which all players knew or should have known was untrustworthy. In particular, this Steele dossier was paid for by Trump’s political adversary. Do you realize how damning that is? So the remaining question is not whether Trump is guilty of anything, but whether these investigators are guilty of anything in abusing their authority to attempt a bogus prosecution. The text messages erase all plausible deniability. Don’t expect this to end well for them.

As for the investigation, there are ways to get the court to shut it down, although admittedly it’s a little unorthodox for Trump to do so when he hasn’t been charged. It would probably involve a writ of mandamus or some other collateral attack.

Lastly, don’t hang your hat on Mueller’s indictments. None of them has resulted in a final judgment of guilt yet. I predict the whole thing implodes, with many veteran prosecutors disbarred and/or charged, and Trump’s innocence vindicated.
 
That's a poorly loaded question, and no, that's not what's happening here.
There is no threshold for when an investigation starts. There is for searches, detainment, and others, but not for an investigation, which is vague.




Bonus points for being the first person to give the obvious answer. Now do you think personal text messages regarding distaste for one person in an investigation that has resulted in 23 indictments, and 3 guilty pleas, "shocks the conscience?"

Clearly, no.



They had nothing, yet still managed to nail 23 people with criminal charges. Now that's some luck.
Hey where's your GeeseMan on this deal? He was gonna be dancing on liberal skulls over this, wasn't he? This is Day 2. I hope he didn't fucking kill himself.
 
. But the texts in this case are smoking gun evidence of pervasive bias - which is indeed a basis for discrediting the investigation.

No it isn't. You've got partisan text messages from a handful of people, most of whom were immediately fired. I see evidence of political affillitation, but not bias in the sense that these people in any way shaped the investigation due to this bias. What you have with these texts, are proof that some people on the investigation were democrats. For most of the right, that is enough to disregard everything they say. Not for me. Until you can show how this "bias" impacted the investigation, I'm about as shocked as someone providing text messages that show Mitch McConnel to be a republican.


.
The court can shut it down based on the standard I gave you. On that note, the cat is already out of the bag that the investigation was launched based on a series of pretextual searches and seizures (which, as you know, implicates the Constitution) and “intelligence” which all players knew or should have known was untrustworthy. In particular, this Steele dossier was paid for by Trump’s political adversary. Do you realize how damning that is? So the remaining question is not whether Trump is guilty of anything, but whether these investigators are guilty of anything in abusing their authority to attempt a bogus prosecution. The text messages erase all plausible deniability. Don’t expect this to end well for them.

Three big things wrong with the above:

1) The investigation start date: This keeps getting brought out by the right, and it has no significance to whether an investigation is lawful. Police can "investigate" someone/something whenever they want. There is no threshold for when the police can turn to an issue and start looking into it. If a police officer has nothing more than a wild baseless hunch, he can still "investigate" any issue he wants. Now he can't conduct a search, detain a suspect, or otherwise violate the Constitutional rights of anyone, but he can "investigate."
Hell, the term itself is vague enough to where that should be obvious. When does an investigation start, in a legal sense? Is it when an officer is sitting at his desk and his mind turns to a particular issue? Is it when he first puts pen to paper, filling out any paperwork for some issue? Is it when he leaves the station to look into something? There is no answer for this because the courts have never bothered with it. An investigation can be benign, or incredibly intrusive. So our legal system does not care about it. Just searches, detainments, and the like.

2) The fucking dossier:
This has been beaten to death in several other threads, but here's a quick recap one more time.
All that a judge is looking for in a warrant is whether the aggregate of everything provided by law enforcement, amounts to probable cause. If it does, a search is reasonable under the Constitution and the judge will sign off. Any piece of that overall intelligence used for probable cause can be ignored, criticized, or discarded by the judge. But just because the judge dismisses one piece of evidence, does not mean that the rest vanishes. It survives on it's own and you still look to see if the total amounts to probable cause.
The republican argument was that the Special Counsel didn't include that a copy of the Steel dossier had been paid for by the DNC or the Clinton campaign (and it had been included in the application, but mentioned only in a foot note. Republicans changed their stance from "it's not included" to "well it's only mentioned in a footnote and that's not obvious enough). There is no legal obligation to include the fact that while copies of the Steele dossier were paid for by Republican sources, Democratic ones also paid for a copy.
Even so, a judge could look at this fact (or anything else) and determine that the dossier is sufficiently untrustworthy. However the correct action would be for the judge to discard the dossier and not include it in his reasoning. What the judge can't do, and what republicans are asking him to do, is throw out the entire warrant application. There could be 200 pieces of evidence in the warrant application. Even if 199 of them the judge tosses out, if that last one still gets you to probable cause, the warrant is lawful.
Prosecutors will always load the deck for a warrant application. Now you don't want to waste your time with stupid shit, or risk annoying the judge with filler, or really weak evidence. But you never know what the judge (unless you've gone before him a bunch, and feel you can read the guy/girl) is gonna find noteworthy. Maybe you've got some awesome witness testimony that you think cuts right to the heart of the case, but the judge disagrees. Well you better have something else in case the judge ignores it. To that effect, warrant applications on complex criminal cases are usually filled evidence ranging from "damn that looks bad for the defendant," to "meh." And of course this warrant application was filled with a shit ton of such evidence.

3) Politcal beliefs or party affiliation by law enforcement, triggers nothing automatically under our law. You can't remove an investigator, or throw out his findings just due to his political leanings. You can allege bias, but determining whether or not a warrant is valid, or a search was legal, turns on its own set of standards.
So did these fbi agents actually do anything to negatively impact the investigation? Did they conduct searches without a warrant? Did they detain anyone? These are the questions you ask. Not just what political party the investigators belong to. That, by itself, means nothing.

And I'd be interested in what trouble you think these people should be in. We have them texting to each other about their dislike for trump. That tells us nothing about their conduct. Nothing in here comes close to "shocking the conscious" as our law requires. If it did, you're telling me that any investigation could be stopped the moment a suspect finds out the political parties of investigating officers don't match his own. I know we live in a partisan world, but most people, and certainly our federal courts, do not presume state actors are evil just because they are republican or democrat.



.
Lastly, don’t hang your hat on Mueller’s indictments. None of them has resulted in a final judgment of guilt yet. I predict the whole thing implodes, with many veteran prosecutors disbarred and/or charged, and Trump’s innocence vindicated.

None of us know the breadth of what the Special Counsel has found yet. So none of us can declare with certainty whether trump broke the law. Only partisans are acting like this investigation lives and dies depending on how trump personally is punished.
What we do know is that 20 people and 3 corporations have been charged, and some of them have pled guilty. That's one of the largest groups ever charged under a Special Counsel. That's hardly nothing, and can't see why you would want Mueller to stop now unless you're worried about what he'll find later. Obviously, the more people you find in trump's orbit who committed crimes, the harder it is to make the argument that trump was just oblivious to all this.
It's the double standard by republicans which is appalling. This is a congress who held dozens of hearing on fucking Benghazi. Despite the first score of investigations returning nothing criminal, republicans insisted they needed more investigations to absolutely get to the bottom of this. Now, we can't even conclude one investigation because some members of law enforcement might be democrats. The bullshit is obvious.
 
Lol at an agent going to Congress as a whistleblower being a leaker!!

This is what’s so lame. Half the WR will post ridiculous tweets from hacks and act like it’s some sort of news
 
Hey where's your GeeseMan on this deal? He was gonna be dancing on liberal skulls over this, wasn't he? This is Day 2. I hope he didn't fucking kill himself.


Busy time at work,

The report did exactly what I thought it would.

Highlight failures and wrongdoing by leadership in the fbi and doj.
Recommend McCabe for criminal charges.
End the media’s ability to cover for them in upcoming IG reports based on their “impeccable reputations”.
Destroyed the chances of an OOJ charge for firing Comey.
Disgraced Comey.

On top of that, there was actually some unexpected bonus deliveries.

The most damaging texts yet revealed.
The fbi let off people that knowingly lied to them.
Because of these text, republicans are now going after Meuller hard.
We got to feast upon the rarest of salty tears, real life high ranking FBI agent tears.


And for anyone insinuating I said people would be locked up, you’re a liar and an idiot. And you’re forgetting last month when you criticized me for saying “nobody in Washington is ever held accountable” (as if I support that). You can’t have it both ways, I can’t be black pilled, and claim people will go to jail.

Lastly, this is just the first IG report. When all is said and done, the truth will be out and history will judge the obama administration based on reality, no the rosy picture the media painted.
 
No it isn't. You've got partisan text messages from a handful of people, most of whom were immediately fired. I see evidence of political affillitation, but not bias in the sense that these people in any way shaped the investigation due to this bias. What you have with these texts, are proof that some people on the investigation were democrats. For most of the right, that is enough to disregard everything they say. Not for me. Until you can show how this "bias" impacted the investigation, I'm about as shocked as someone providing text messages that show Mitch McConnel to be a republican.




Three big things wrong with the above:

1) The investigation start date: This keeps getting brought out by the right, and it has no significance to whether an investigation is lawful. Police can "investigate" someone/something whenever they want. There is no threshold for when the police can turn to an issue and start looking into it. If a police officer has nothing more than a wild baseless hunch, he can still "investigate" any issue he wants. Now he can't conduct a search, detain a suspect, or otherwise violate the Constitutional rights of anyone, but he can "investigate."
Hell, the term itself is vague enough to where that should be obvious. When does an investigation start, in a legal sense? Is it when an officer is sitting at his desk and his mind turns to a particular issue? Is it when he first puts pen to paper, filling out any paperwork for some issue? Is it when he leaves the station to look into something? There is no answer for this because the courts have never bothered with it. An investigation can be benign, or incredibly intrusive. So our legal system does not care about it. Just searches, detainments, and the like.

2) The fucking dossier:
This has been beaten to death in several other threads, but here's a quick recap one more time.
All that a judge is looking for in a warrant is whether the aggregate of everything provided by law enforcement, amounts to probable cause. If it does, a search is reasonable under the Constitution and the judge will sign off. Any piece of that overall intelligence used for probable cause can be ignored, criticized, or discarded by the judge. But just because the judge dismisses one piece of evidence, does not mean that the rest vanishes. It survives on it's own and you still look to see if the total amounts to probable cause.
The republican argument was that the Special Counsel didn't include that a copy of the Steel dossier had been paid for by the DNC or the Clinton campaign (and it had been included in the application, but mentioned only in a foot note. Republicans changed their stance from "it's not included" to "well it's only mentioned in a footnote and that's not obvious enough). There is no legal obligation to include the fact that while copies of the Steele dossier were paid for by Republican sources, Democratic ones also paid for a copy.
Even so, a judge could look at this fact (or anything else) and determine that the dossier is sufficiently untrustworthy. However the correct action would be for the judge to discard the dossier and not include it in his reasoning. What the judge can't do, and what republicans are asking him to do, is throw out the entire warrant application. There could be 200 pieces of evidence in the warrant application. Even if 199 of them the judge tosses out, if that last one still gets you to probable cause, the warrant is lawful.
Prosecutors will always load the deck for a warrant application. Now you don't want to waste your time with stupid shit, or risk annoying the judge with filler, or really weak evidence. But you never know what the judge (unless you've gone before him a bunch, and feel you can read the guy/girl) is gonna find noteworthy. Maybe you've got some awesome witness testimony that you think cuts right to the heart of the case, but the judge disagrees. Well you better have something else in case the judge ignores it. To that effect, warrant applications on complex criminal cases are usually filled evidence ranging from "damn that looks bad for the defendant," to "meh." And of course this warrant application was filled with a shit ton of such evidence.

3) Politcal beliefs or party affiliation by law enforcement, triggers nothing automatically under our law. You can't remove an investigator, or throw out his findings just due to his political leanings. You can allege bias, but determining whether or not a warrant is valid, or a search was legal, turns on its own set of standards.
So did these fbi agents actually do anything to negatively impact the investigation? Did they conduct searches without a warrant? Did they detain anyone? These are the questions you ask. Not just what political party the investigators belong to. That, by itself, means nothing.

And I'd be interested in what trouble you think these people should be in. We have them texting to each other about their dislike for trump. That tells us nothing about their conduct. Nothing in here comes close to "shocking the conscious" as our law requires. If it did, you're telling me that any investigation could be stopped the moment a suspect finds out the political parties of investigating officers don't match his own. I know we live in a partisan world, but most people, and certainly our federal courts, do not presume state actors are evil just because they are republican or democrat.





None of us know the breadth of what the Special Counsel has found yet. So none of us can declare with certainty whether trump broke the law. Only partisans are acting like this investigation lives and dies depending on how trump personally is punished.
What we do know is that 20 people and 3 corporations have been charged, and some of them have pled guilty. That's one of the largest groups ever charged under a Special Counsel. That's hardly nothing, and can't see why you would want Mueller to stop now unless you're worried about what he'll find later. Obviously, the more people you find in trump's orbit who committed crimes, the harder it is to make the argument that trump was just oblivious to all this.
It's the double standard by republicans which is appalling. This is a congress who held dozens of hearing on fucking Benghazi. Despite the first score of investigations returning nothing criminal, republicans insisted they needed more investigations to absolutely get to the bottom of this. Now, we can't even conclude one investigation because some members of law enforcement might be democrats. The bullshit is obvious.



“We will stop him”

Trump now has a very convenient excuse to say “I plead the 5th” during any questioning. Who can blame him. He just points to the texts and says “I don’t trust any of them”. Furthermore, since the release of these new texts, republican leadership has been calling Meullers investigation tainted (that’s not to say I agree, simply pointing out the new narrative)

Secondly, we do know something about Meullers investigation. Trump isn’t the target.

Now please, go on about how this is 73d chess by Meuller and trump can become the target at any time.
 
It's always the next report.

I'm sure two agents who exchanged text messages about how they thought trump was a twat and were subsequently and immediately removed from that investigation, will sink everything.

I think this is a good standard to have. Despite no evidence that they took any measure to shape or alter the investigation in any way, nor that they had any affect on Mueller (who fired them), they said they didn't like trump in their personal correspondence. Cancelling the whole investigation is the only solution. We should further go back and find out if any law enforcement personnel ever mentioned there dislike for a suspect in a personal conversation, and throw out those convictions as well. Only way to be sure there isn't bias.

I heard someone in the US government say something negative about Bin Laden once. Probably should have just pardoned the guy.
 
“We will stop him”

Trump now has a very convenient excuse to say “I plead the 5th” during any questioning. Who can blame him. He just points to the texts and says “I don’t trust any of them”.

Sound legal advice as always bob. Trump can now do something he always could have done. Brilliant.

There is no way you are a functional adult, married, with kids and living in NY, and still lack such a fundamental knowledge of our legal system.

Furthermore, since the release of these new texts, republican leadership has been calling Meullers investigation tainted (that’s not to say I agree, simply pointing out the new narrative)

They've been doing that since day 1 for shit reasons. I'm not moved by them coming up with another shit reason to continue moaning.



Now please, go on about how this is 73d chess by Meuller and trump can become the target at any time.

Well it's true isn't it?
 
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