Is Military Hand to Hand combat more efficient than MMA?

Out of curiosity I looked up how much time the various branches spend on H2H. It looks like out of an 80 hour work week, they'll spend ~2 hours a week as mandatory. Basically nothing.

I still maintain that the optional extra training can be legit, mostly because even the mandatory training uses full contact rolling/throws/etc. And like I said the MCMAP black belt stuff involves full speed real bayonets and other weapons. I believe they are the scripted "X-step" stuff, but there has got to be some value in seeing weapons coming at you in real time. Compare someone full speed attacking you with a knife to the 1-step I did in a TKD class where the girl said she was ready, I punch her full speed and pull it right in front of her face. She waits a few seconds and then remembers the move she's supposed to do, and even got mad at me for suggesting she should avoid the punch even if she can't remember the 'proper' steps to take...
 
Army combative is just like mma with that said it depends on your instructors. It's done by levels the problem I have with it is that it's so injury prone. I come from an mma background so I find it annoying when everyone is trying to muscle through shit and fuck you up.
 
This is a subject I was keenly interested in a few years back after having trained with some spec ops dudes (SEALs and Rangers). Their unarmed training isn't special and doesn't make them good at fighting unarmed. They spend their time shooting different types of firearms and practicing individual and team movement. If a guy loses his rifle (unforgivable sin), his sidearm, AND his knife, then something has gone very very wrong.

They spend something like a few weeks on it in an entire year so think about how good someone would be at a martial art training a few weeks in a year. However, all that being said, a lot of the team guys train MMA in their spare time for exercise and because they like it. I definitely believe those that train it separately can find spots to use it effectively, but overall they don't have enough time to train for an unarmed situation when they have all the other technical aspects of their training to consider.
 
Cyclone Mike said:
This is a subject I was keenly interested in a few years back after having trained with some spec ops dudes (SEALs and Rangers). Their unarmed training isn't special and doesn't make them good at fighting unarmed. They spend their time shooting different types of firearms and practicing individual and team movement. If a guy loses his rifle (unforgivable sin), his sidearm, AND his knife, then something has gone very very wrong.

They spend something like a few weeks on it in an entire year so think about how good someone would be at a martial art training a few weeks in a year. However, all that being said, a lot of the team guys train MMA in their spare time for exercise and because they like it. I definitely believe those that train it separately can find spots to use it effectively, but overall they don't have enough time to train for an unarmed situation when they have all the other technical aspects of their training to consider.
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I've also said on here many times that martial arts techniques are not a very important factor in a "real" fight (not some drunken brawl at your friends BBQ). If you decided you were going to kill a SEAL with your bare hands, I don't think his double leg technique is going to be a determining factor. What probably will be determining factors are mindset and physical attributes.

I mean you don't necessarily want to pick a fight with someone who did time in a maximum security prison for a few decades, even if he's never trained BJJ.
 
standard Military hand to hand training like training for cops really is for the masses, thousands and thousands of people, you can't expect much more than basic level instruction

There are some legit skills in certain special forces units. Spetnaz Alpha group, those guys are the truth with or without weapons. Ditto for the British SAS
 
We got certified in level 1 Modern Army Combatives Program at Intel School. It is a very basic introduction to ground fighting and clinch work. There is a little bit of striking taught and the final exam/test portion of the course is a clinch drill. You have to achieve one of three "safe clinch" positions against another student or instructor who is wearing boxing gloves and throws differing levels of punches at you four times.

Since I had an MMA and BJJ background I ended up helping with testing after getting my cert. You were basically allowed to go at it full force on the final 2 rounds.

The whole course is just designed to teach aggression and will to win to people who may have never been involved in a fight. As you progress up the chain to level 4 you learn more striking and some weapons techniques. As for level 1 and 2, the instructors tell you they are teaching you enough to get your ass kicked by anyone who trains MMA if you step up thinking you're a badass.

Level of instruction varies depending on how much your instructors trains outside of the Army.
We did some Combatives on the train up for Afghanistan. I was a blue belt at the time and schooled a lot of people, including some of the instructors just based on that.

The military in general, including Special Operations Units does not focus on hand to hand combat at all. Anyone who claims SF teams, SEALS, etc spend a lot of time on it is very uninformed.
 
Umm... why would people be doing BJJ on a battlefield? That sounds absolutely ludicrous.
 
Air Force here. Unless you are in Security Forces or special operations, your hand to hand combat training will consist of "warrior" stance, punching and kicking the air for 1 day at Basic training.

That's the extent of training that most Air Force personnel go through, unless they do it on their own time.
 
DragoN said:
Umm... why would people be doing BJJ on a battlefield? That sounds absolutely ludicrous.
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Presumably you wouldn't be using BJJ in a tank battle, but rather if, for example, something went wrong in a house clear. Effectiveness of the training aside, it seems absolutely ludicrous you can't dream up a scenario where hand to hand training would be useful in a war.
 
fluffball said:
Presumably you wouldn't be using BJJ in a tank battle, but rather if, for example, something went wrong in a house clear. Effectiveness of the training aside, it seems absolutely ludicrous you can't dream up a scenario where hand to hand training would be useful in a war.
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n.diazismylife1999 said:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Bellavia#Military_service

Such as here.
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Are we counting stabbing people with a knife as BJJ now?

He did not fire his weapon for fear of setting off an explosion and instead then engaged in hand-to-hand combat with the insurgent, which led to Bellavia killing the insurgent by stabbing him in the collarbone.
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ga_ninja said:
I'm talking about self defense purposes, I know in MMA you can train most techniques to become effective and efficient but in H2HC some are to lethal to practice with sparring partner but gives a more realistic approach. With that being said in a street situation there are no rules which would feel more confident in using?
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Military hand to hand combat is less efficient than street fighting, in all honesty. I disregarded almost everything they told us to do, as it was effectually pointless.
 
pookiyama said:
Military hand to hand combat is less efficient than street fighting, in all honesty. I disregarded almost everything they told us to do, as it was effectually pointless.
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Okay, I'll bite.

What do you mean by "street fighting"?
 
Paradigm said:
Are we counting stabbing people with a knife as BJJ now?
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I don't know, probably not? No one was stabbed with a knife initially. Bellavia ended up stabbing the insurgent in the collarbone after a ton of punches and kicks and hammering away at him with a plate that he tore off his vest after a prolonged hand-to-hand on the ground where Bellavia had the mount, IIRC. Knowing BJJ would have been very useful to him. Good attempt at snark based on a mistaken assumption, though, I guess.

Here:

https://books.google.com/books?id=lgTqegvuNiIC&pg=PA261&lpg=PA261&dq=I+leap+at+my+enemy.+Before+he+can+respond+I+land+right+on+top+of+his+chest.+A+rush+of+air+bursts+from+his+mouth&source=bl&ots=eB4ePYYSfL&sig=B80r9lU3x0jGaDZj-pvwbag9jGc&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjq4eDH5tDNAhVH_SwKHQnMCY0Q6AEIHDAA#v=onepage&q=I leap at my enemy. Before he can respond I land right on top of his chest. A rush of air bursts from his mouth&f=false

Another one:
"In 2005, blogger Michael Yon recounted a bloody brawl after an insurgent shot Lt. Col. Erik Kurilla in Mosul, Iraq. Sgt. Maj. Rob Prosser returned fire and ran out of ammunition, so he charged the insurgent and brought him to the ground.

The two became locked in a brutal brawl as they exchanged punches and tried to choke each other. The fight ended when other soldiers stormed the building. They took the bloodied enemy fighter alive."
 
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pookiyama said:
I mean a little bit of experience and muscle memory from being in a fight do more for you than what they teach you.
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Gotta say I don't agree, because you won't build muscle memory from being in a street fight, you'll just be having a fight untrained against another untrained guy. A soldier or marine is definitely going to beat an untrained guy in a fight
 
All other things equal, I can tell you unequivocally that a little bit of experience under fire is better than being taught wrong, without the experience to mitigate it. Hand to hand military training is bad. Like, Mcdojo bad.
 
pookiyama said:
I can tell you unequivocally that a little bit of experience under fire is better than being taught wrong
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Which is what the military does. Techniques are mostly irrelevant for anything other than sport combat. The rest is physical fitness and mindset. Honestly those blank-laser-gun house clearing drills the army does are probably better training for a to-the-death fist fight than MT is.

My money is on the soldier doing 80 hour weeks of having his mindset tested and getting a sweet six pack over some dude who has been in a street fight. :)
 
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