Is there a way to make wrestling exciting without taking tools away from the wrestler?

[revoltub]

Grind shouldnt get people yellow carded. Khabib grinds but he mauls people while doing so. Only the head in the crotch johnny hendricks style would get yellow carded

IMHO people should STFU and allow the fight to take place ANYWHERE it leads.
If a guy is stuck against the fence, it is up to him to get the hell out of that position. If he can't, then he loses points and his opponent gains controlling points.

Same on the ground.


I fucking hate when fighters beg the referees to get them out of an uncomfortable position. This is a fucking fight. Learn to get out of those positions or be stuck in it!!!

I think in the long run, it is better for the sport to allow wrestlers to do what they do, that way eventually the fighters will get better to the point they can grapple AND strike well enough to make every fight exciting.

 

[revoltub]

the guy on top is in a dominant position because of gravity. it's really that simple.

Thats was my initial thought as well.

I mean there is a reason that in wrestling the point is to get on top of the guy and not underneath him, right?

If you take someone down and get on top of him, you have done so by your own offense overwhelming the opponents active defense. It isnt some random thing that means nothing and involves no effort as it seems some are claiming.

 

[Shaddows]

I think in the long run, it is better for the sport to allow wrestlers to do what they do, that way eventually the fighters will get better to the point they can grapple AND strike well enough to make every fight exciting.

I think America will always be a leader in this area, as wrestling is not something other countries have in their schools.
But same as BJJ, at some poine everyone will eventually learn everything. then the best fighter will get the advantage.

but this sport is still young enough for Americans to dominate for the time being...

 

[BigGucciSosa]

Take away elbows and you take away lay-and-pray; it would force wrestlers to ground-and-pound or go for submissions.

Yes lets take away elbows, i mean look at all this lay n praying

 

[MikeMcMann]

i have been to many bjj classes over the years, and i always laugh my arse off when someone pulls guard. pass guard forearm to throat and chicken wing ding time. that or knee ride to mount. last time i went to a bjj class i watched my brother armbar the instructor

Well you are just one of the abundant Sherdog supermen who would have us believe they can beat top pro'. There are a lot of you.

Fedor learned top position is not everything V Werdum. We've seen many guys beaten and subbed from bottom in MMA. But I get it. You would laugh at the top submission artists if they thought they had any advantage on you from the bottom.

 

[MikeMcMann]

IMHO people should STFU and allow the fight to take place ANYWHERE it leads.
If a guy is stuck against the fence, it is up to him to get the hell out of that position. If he can't, then he loses points and his opponent gains controlling points.

Same on the ground.


I fucking hate when fighters beg the referees to get them out of an uncomfortable position. This is a fucking fight. Learn to get out of those positions or be stuck in it!!!

I.agree in part but disagree in part.

Leave them if they cannot get out but it's also a draw and not a win.

In the art of war or a chess game instituting a stalemate is not a win. And it should not be in a fight. Just because you can hold me in one spot but not do anything more with it because I'm too dangerous and might escape is not a win as you are neutralized as well. Two soldiers are out or one from each side. It's even. A draw.

If someone holds me in a fight but can do zero more and eventually let's go and tries to claim victory I.would laugh. It's a draw. I was holding him too but without trying as hard but we were equally neutralized.

 

[Dirge]

 

[Shaddows]

I.agree in part but disagree in part.

Leave them if they cannot get out but it's also a draw and not a win.

In the art of war or a chess game instituting a stalemate is not a win. Just because you can hold me in one spot but not do anything more with it because I'm too dangerous and might escape is not a win as you are neutralized as well. Two soldiers are out or one from each side. It's even. A draw.

If someone holds me in a fight but can do zero more and eventually let's go and tries to claim victory I.would laugh. It's a draw. I was holding him too but without trying as hard but we were equally neutralized.

I can agree to that. It makes sense...
though sometimes, being in a better position (i.e. half-guard in itself it is a more dominant position (compared to the guy on the bottom), even if that guy can tie you up.
Ues, I could be holding you because you are more dangerous, but you are tying me up because you are at the bottom, and there are more changes of me submitting you than you me.
So in that case, the victory should go for the guy at the top.

On that thought, no position (on the ground) is truly neutral (one is always on top of the other).

My bigger beef is when a BJJ guy is fighting someone else that also knows BJJ (which nowadays most do), they fight a hard battle for every inch, for every position, for moving and putting his hand in the right place, etc. And referees don't like there's "no action" it and just stand them up. That's ignorance at its best!!
Referees should know better!

But If they'd make it a tie, I would be OK with it.

 

[MikeMcMann]

I can agree to that. It makes sense...
though sometimes, being in a better position (i.e. half-guard in itself it is a more dominant position (compared to the guy on the bottom), even if that guy can tie you up.
Ues, I could be holding you because you are more dangerous, but you are tying me up because you are at the bottom, and there are more changes of me submitting you than you me.
So in that case, the victory should go for the guy at the top.

On that thought, no position (on the ground) is truly neutral (one is always on top of the other).

My bigger beef is when a BJJ guy is fighting someone else that also knows BJJ (which nowadays most do), they fight a hard battle for every inch, for every position, for moving and putting his hand in the right place, etc. And referees don't like there's "no action" it and just stand them up. That's ignorance at its best!!
Referees should know better!

But If they'd make it a tie, I would be OK with it.

Ya I love a good tactical positional battle that is inch by inch but understand that for most casuals it' boring as they can't recognize what is happening.

But again I think the answer to many of these issues is more draws. Fighters won't want a bunch of draws I on their record so it will push them to finish. Imagine Fitch if he could not win through position and instead with the longest draw streak. That simply does not work.

 

[Katsumi Yamada]

Ive been thinking, a lot of people point to yellow cards in pride, but in a way that takes away the wrestlers ability to "grind" which is something that happens in a real fight.

Now im not saying mma is a real fight, but I'm just saying that taking away someones ability to wrestle (just because you yourself can't) is too much of a rule manipulation.

Imagine if nobody knew how to jab and one guy learned. Now this jab isnt going to finish the fight, but it keeps him in control. He suffocates the other fighters offense with a jab and the fight drags on with no finish in sight. Now imagine if he got a yellow card for stalling. He wouldnt right? Because the long use of the jab eventually sets up a right hand, finishing the fight.

Just like how a long wrestling sequence can lead to a gnp or submission finish. This is my main problem with yellowcarding.

Another issue is using knees on the ground. I think,this would make it easier for wrestlers to finish fights, but the ufc will never allow it.

Ive heard taking away elbows would allow guys to get subs because of throwing punches and exposing arms.


In the end it seems we just have to deal with it.

Any thoughts or suggestions on a good way to increase action on the ground?

Knees on the ground, soccer kicks, no judges so wrestler has to finish the fight.

 

[Shaddows]

Ya I love a good tactical positional battle that is inch by inch but understand that for most casuals it' boring as they can't recognize what is happening.

But again I think the answer to many of these issues is more draws. Fighters won't want a bunch of draws I on their record so it will push them to finish. Imagine Fitch if he could not win through position and instead with the longest draw streak. That simply does not work.

Well, that's the thing. I don;t care for "the public".
Two teams in soccer on a tie, if the public boos them, the referee don't awards one penalty kick to each team. Same here.
Public simply need to learn better, and they would if the referee wouldn't stop a fucking high level chess match to stand them up, people would see the results of that battle for the inches.

And don't get me started on this stupid scoring system (why make a 10 point if they NEVER go below 9? That's a fucking binary system, not a 10 must.
Make it go to 3 (or 5) points, and set better criterias, so judges don't score only 10-9's.

But again, I can see your logic for more ties. Make it so both fighters don't get win bonuses and they will fight harder to get the W.
Makes absolute sense.

 

[acannxr]

Yes lets take away elbows, i mean look at all this lay n praying

Wow, you found three examples of elbows. Now compare that with the thousands of times a fighter has laid and prayed. I mean, I can think of fighters who made careers off lay and pray right off the top of my head (GSP, Fitch, Askren, Shields, Early-Woodley, Early-Koscheck, Rounds 4&5 of Hendricks/Lawler 2, Nelson/Lewis).

 

[revoltub]

Well, that's the thing. I don;t care for "the public".
Two teams in soccer on a tie, if the public boos them, the referee don't awards one penalty kick to each team. Same here.
Public simply need to learn better, and they would if the referee wouldn't stop a fucking high level chess match to stand them up, people would see the results of that battle for the inches.

And don't get me started on this stupid scoring system (why make a 10 point if they NEVER go below 9? That's a fucking binary system, not a 10 must.
Make it go to 3 (or 5) points, and set better criterias, so judges don't score only 10-9's.

But again, I can see your logic for more ties. Make it so both fighters don't get win bonuses and they will fight harder to get the W.
Makes absolute sense.

Why not go to the old round system in boxing before the ten must.

So instead of 30 27 it is 3 to 0

If there a draw they both get the round.

If There is a near finish the fighter gets an extra half round or whole round.

For example lets say in round 1u lose and round 2 u lose but they are close. Now lets say you win round 3 but you do so by almost finishing the fight several times and almost finishing,your opponent.

So you get that round and also get an extra"bonus" round for the damage. Therefore the fight is a draw...so there should be one sudden death round of 2 and a half minutes to promote pace.

 

[Shaddows]

Why not go to the old round system in boxing before the ten must.

So instead of 30 27 it is 3 to 0

If there a draw they both get the round.

If There is a near finish the fighter gets an extra half round or whole round.

For example lets say in round 1u lose and round 2 u lose but they are close. Now lets say you win round 3 but you do so by almost finishing the fight several times and almost finishing,your opponent.

So you get that round and also get an extra"bonus" round for the damage. Therefore the fight is a draw...so there should be one sudden death round of 2 and a half minutes to promote pace.

I like it!!
Sign me up!!

 

[eternaldarkness]

Well you are just one of the abundant Sherdog supermen who would have us believe they can beat top pro'. There are a lot of you.

Fedor learned top position is not everything V Werdum. We've seen many guys beaten and subbed from bottom in MMA. But I get it. You would laugh at the top submission artists if they thought they had any advantage on you from the bottom.

your a fucking clown that is taking it way out of context. Of course a top pro would destroy me in any position. You said that being on top in a fight means nothing, which shows you know nothing about fighting. How many years have you done bjj? I have done it on and off for over ten years and have rarely been subbed from top position. Even most of the best bjj guys prefer top position, so fuck off and learn a bit more before you post stupid shit.

 

[Bubblun]

Wrestling is still exciting as it is now, mma is a competition to find of who is the best fighter not who is the most exciting to clueless people that don't understand what they are watching.


When people complain about lay and pray these days it usually mean that the bottom fighter is good enough and conditioned enough to survive, but his wrestling isn't good enough to stand up.

A perfect example of that is Kamaru Usman, his last fight was considered a boring lay and pray by the nerds in this forum, but Usman was trying hard to hurt Meek with elbows and was very active on top, but Meek wasn't an easy prey at all.
People should give credit to the fighters instead of talking trash, these guys are the best fighters in the wold, nobody go in the cage to let himself being ground and pounded to death to make the fans happy.

 

[HUGHPHUG]

I'm still of the opinion that no matter how boring it is to watch, if a fighter can hold you down for 15/25 minutes straight then so be it.
Stand ups due to inactivity is fair enough if there is no sign of advancing or damage, but other than that it is what it is

It is the opponents job to figure out how to beat a guy like this

 

[Kleinschuster]

Knees to the head of grounded opponents

Came here to post this.

Allow elbows, knees to the ground and upkicks from the ground. Then you have a lot of dmg for and against the wrestler.

 

[Maori]

Make top position neutral in terms of points, instead reward passing and gnp.

At the same reward good guards, sub attempts and strikes from the bottom should be rewarded also.

 

[aichokyu]

knees on the ground, a wrestler in top position could use them effectively from side control or north south, like coleman and kerr used to do, and would make it more exiting because they could do damage without losing position.

unfortunately it can also be used very effectively against them, after a failed/defended double leg, and UFC catering primarily to an american audience, they wants rules that are favourable to american fighters, who for the most part come from a wrestling background, so they can't allow knees on the ground.