Islam vs Charles was a competitive fight. We've convinced ourselves it wasn't.

[checktheknuckles]

Damn, you are retarded.

So 1 fight at LW to win the belt, then 2 defenses against a way smaller/older FW and now talks of going to ww. This is literally facts you retarded goof. Don't want no part of charles or the other lw contenders.

 

[User9992]

So 1 fight at LW to win the belt, then 2 defenses against a way smaller/older FW and now talks of going to ww. This is literally facts you retarded goof. Don't want no part of charles or the other lw contenders.

Who faked injury 1 week before the fight?

 

[icffedor]

For the ones who understand, what they are watching it was and has always been competitive.
Shitlamstans love false narratives, so it is what it is.

You obviously have no clue wth you watched or blind as a bat

 

[icffedor]

So 1 fight at LW to win the belt, then 2 defenses against a way smaller/older FW and now talks of going to ww. This is literally facts you retarded goof. Don't want no part of charles or the other lw contenders.

Charles will never beat Islam and you acting like he's being ducked lol wth

 

[Standupguy152]

It was a competitive fight, I've said this from the first time it happened. The thing about this fight is that not much really happened, so any moments of any offense stand out. Islam landed a nice 1-2 right at the bell, got 2 TDs, Charles landed a solid up kick and had two sub attempts. Round 2 they clinched up, Charles defended the TDs, both threw and missed on strikes and then you got the finish. Islam won round 1 with TDs and control, round 2 was pretty even.

The thing that leads people to think Islam dominated was that Charles barely got any offense going the entire fight. And they remember the few times Islam did something offensive. But Islam didn't really do that much either.

Largely agree with this take!

People will remember how the fight ended, as well as the small bits of action in an otherwise uneventful (but still interesting) fight. This leads them to think that Islam dominated.

Upon rewatching, I’m impressed with Islam’s striking defense and counters. Charles couldn’t get going because Islam was hard to land clean on, and maybe he was a little wary of the TD. Islam countered cleanly when Charles overextended.

You could argue that Charles’ inability to get offense going on the feet led to the ill-fated flying knee.

 

[Standupguy152]

I've always maintained that the fight went the way it went, but because of Charles' mistake, it's not like we were comparing them at their best.

Having said that, I still think Islam wins even if Charles doesn't brainfart. Problem is, I don't know that, so I'm totally good with it getting run back, only since Charles did away with the number 1 contender (even though that was some shitty booking)


You're trying to get sense from a guy who has hard-stuck to the "I believe Hooker despite no evidence" train. Don't bother.


The terrible, biased thumbnail and Danis picture means no I don't.

Agreed with the crappy matchmaking. Man I really wanted to see Dariush vs Islam. Those scrambles could’ve been a beautiful thing to watch.

 

[Sivo The Ram]

that shit was less competitive than i remembered. damn

 

[TheMMAnalyst]

I appreciate the long and thought out reply. But I can't really debate this with you, we see this fight in a very different way. It just wouldn't go anywhere.

I appreciate the approach to intelligent discourse - I'm not trying to provoke an argument, I'm just trying to understand why you would consider this fight competitive after reading my response, to the point where you don't even think it's worth making an effort at a reply to counter my argument with your own.

You even admitted in this thread that "the thing that leads people to think Islam dominated was that Charles barely got any offense going the entire fight" and then add in "but Islam didn't really do that much either."

In striking Islam hurt him to start and end the fight (as well as controlling the distance and landing combinations and a partially blocked head-kick at range).

In clinch Islam out-worked/out-knee'd him and used the position to set-up a throw, also made Charles over-work to start the second round to escape the position.

In grappling Islam had no problem dealing with the submission threats (Charles didn't really commit to armbar/triangle/leglock, just threatened to set-up scrambles though), was able to easily establish and hold top position. When he had Charles hurt he was able to immediately secure and finish a submission within seconds.

I just don't see how you find it "competitive" when the best work Charles did was an upkick at the end of the first and some decent clinch work to start the second. It wasn't like he got mauled, it's just there was nothing he did that was actually effective in the greater strategic element of the fight (i.e. tactics vs. strategy), while the little that Islam did do was entirely effective.

Watching live I remember thinking during the middle of the second when Charles gave Islam the center and let him walk him down with combinations and kicks for a second "he's run out of ideas" and having re-watched that thought rings true again.

Charle's is not a stylistically flexible fighter, he's a pressuring offensive dynamo that needs to set a pace to discomfort the opponent into making mistakes where they can get finished. In this fight Islam immediately established he couldn't be pressured without supreme dangerous consequence (power-counter combination + clinch-throw). This made Charles hesitant to close the distance and since he can't adjust he just kept randomly cycling through his list of attacks and set-ups just believing that something would work and create a dynamic opening.

Once he'd exhausted all his ideas (blitz with combinations, try outside kicks, pressure against the cage, sacrifice throw, dynamic grappling attack/scrambles, own takedown attempt) at that point he seemed kind of lost in the fight like he didn't know what he should be doing since nothing was working.

The only moments of offense he did get were actually from positions Islam wanted to be in and could do better work from (i.e. he got the up-kick while getting stacked against the cage from bottom, he got his clinch knees being clinched against he cage and reacting by working super-hard to get out of the position).

Anyways I honestly would be interested to understand how you "see" the fight - to me it's fascinating how people can see things so differently. But if you don't want to get into the weeds of perception all good, thanks for contributing to this thread anyways.

 

[Conan the K-9]

I appreciate the approach to intelligent discourse - I'm not trying to provoke an argument, I'm just trying to understand why you would consider this fight competitive after reading my response, to the point where you don't even think it's worth making an effort at a reply to counter my argument with your own.

You even admitted in this thread that "the thing that leads people to think Islam dominated was that Charles barely got any offense going the entire fight" and then add in "but Islam didn't really do that much either."

In striking Islam hurt him to start and end the fight (as well as controlling the distance and landing combinations and a partially blocked head-kick at range).

In clinch Islam out-worked/out-knee'd him and used the position to set-up a throw, also made Charles over-work to start the second round to escape the position.

In grappling Islam had no problem dealing with the submission threats (Charles didn't really commit to armbar/triangle/leglock, just threatened to set-up scrambles though), was able to easily establish and hold top position. When he had Charles hurt he was able to immediately secure and finish a submission within seconds.

I just don't see how you find it "competitive" when the best work Charles did was an upkick at the end of the first and some decent clinch work to start the second. It wasn't like he got mauled, it's just there was nothing he did that was actually effective in the greater strategic element of the fight (i.e. tactics vs. strategy), while the little that Islam did do was entirely effective.

Watching live I remember thinking during the middle of the second when Charles gave Islam the center and let him walk him down with combinations and kicks for a second "he's run out of ideas" and having re-watched that thought rings true again.

Charle's is not a stylistically flexible fighter, he's a pressuring offensive dynamo that needs to set a pace to discomfort the opponent into making mistakes where they can get finished. In this fight Islam immediately established he couldn't be pressured without supreme dangerous consequence (power-counter combination + clinch-throw). This made Charles hesitant to close the distance and since he can't adjust he just kept randomly cycling through his list of attacks and set-ups just believing that something would work and create a dynamic opening.

Once he'd exhausted all his ideas (blitz with combinations, try outside kicks, pressure against the cage, sacrifice throw, dynamic grappling attack/scrambles, own takedown attempt) at that point he seemed kind of lost in the fight like he didn't know what he should be doing since nothing was working.

The only moments of offense he did get were actually from positions Islam wanted to be in and could do better work from (i.e. he got the up-kick while getting stacked against the cage from bottom, he got his clinch knees being clinched against he cage and reacting by working super-hard to get out of the position).

Anyways I honestly would be interested to understand how you "see" the fight - to me it's fascinating how people can see things so differently. But if you don't want to get into the weeds of perception all good, thanks for contributing to this thread anyways.

I’m not @JKS but I fully understand that someone has no energy to try explain or even less to debate on this topic.
It’s like trying to convince someone who regularly watches soccer or ice hockey, to get excited about watching bjj. It’s a dead road as you can see from some of the comments here.

You are right Charles did not really commit to any of his submissions, but meanwhile he really was in no danger him self either until, that mistake he made.

Charles landed the better knees in the clinch and was only taken down or tripped, because his opponent blantantly grabbed his glove.

For me already the fact that we all see this fight so different, is a clear proof that it was competitive.

 

[TheMMAnalyst]

I’m not @JKS but I fully understand that someone has no energy to try explain or even less to debate on this topic.
It’s like trying to convince someone who regularly watches soccer or ice hockey, to get excited about watching bjj. It’s a dead road as you can see from some of the comments here.

You are right Charles did not really commit to any of his submissions, but meanwhile he really was in no danger him self either until, that mistake he made.

Charles landed the better knees in the clinch and was only taken down or tripped, because his opponent blantantly grabbed his glove.

For me already the fact that we all see this fight so different, is a clear proof that it was competitive.

It is like we are watching entirely different things when I read these explanations.

It does seem like you intentionally forget all the effective stuff Islam did and claim that he did nothing before the finish. You also claim somehow that he landed better knees in the clinch, which is debatable (they were equal in the second, maybe he had a slight edge in that attack, though he lost that battle in the first). Then you throw in the "glove trap" to explain why he got tripped and it just seems like justifications built into excuses.

Here's my play-by-by of entirety of the fight with strikes and grappling exchanges attempted (whether landed or not):

ROUND 1

-Charles tries a jump flying knee/kick and it misses
-Charles tries a high kick and it's blocked by hand/Islam moves away
-Islam lands a straight left/right hook as Charles walks in and he backs off, face shows he's hurt even if momentarily
-Islam tries a sloppy, lunging 3-punch combination, the last of which lands on the guard but still hurt (I assume Charles was still stunned here because this is the most reckless blitz/exchange by Islam, very wild with chin up, was begging to be countered)
-Both guys throw in the pocket but nothing lands and they reset
-Charles misses a front-kick
-Islam tries a 1-2 but Charles defends
-They both try to throw but end up collapsing into a clinch, Charles grabs a body-lock and pulls Islam into half-guard
-Oliviera tries a few triangle/armbar set-ups but doesn't commit, Islam stays safe with both hands in, super-light GnP from both, Islam tries to maintain position so Oliviera opens guard and rolls for a leg-lock to use it as a sit-up, ends up with a partial body-lock as he stand-up on Islam but he spins out
-Islam lands a good knee, Charles counters back with a good one, Islam lands two more knees and this time when Charles tries to respond Islam uses it to judo throw him (did Islam grab his glove? yes. was Charles also grabbing the top of the octagon and getting warned? yes).
-Charles gets guard and Islam stays there working with super-light GnP for a minute, basically meaningless shots but keeps head into his chest/chin and pressuring him, finally with 40 seconds left he postures up and lands a really good elbow and starts throwing harder shots.
-Islam tries to stack and Oliviera lands a really solid up-kick, Islam goes back into guard and Charles lands a nice elbow.

ROUND 2

-Charles tries a front kick and misses
-Charles tries to pressure and throws a lead, Islam slips and throws a 2-punch counter (glancing, Anik over-reacts don't think either punch lands that clean)
-Islam throws a head-kick and Charles properly blocks/moves back
-Islam lands a lead hook and gets the clinch, lands a hard clinch knee, Oliviera lands a glancing clinch elbow, Charles tries an over-under/body-lock throw that doesn't work, both get up against the cage in the clinch with the over-under, Charles lands a nice short elbow as they stand, they get stuck there for 30 seconds hand-fighting, Charles lands his best clinch knee by far, then another nice short clinch knee as Islam tries to adjust the position, Islam gets double-under and tries a body-lock throw and it doesn't work, but now Charles back is flat against the cage and he's working hard to get out. Charles lands a short clinch elbow, Islam lands a nice knee to the body, Charles counters back with a nice knee.
-At this point Oliviera lets Islam take the center of the cage, tries to walk in with a push kick that misses
-Islam tries a 3-2 that misses, Charles tries to counter with a straight right but misses
-Charles lunges in with a 1-2 that misses and gets countered by Islam's same 3-2
-Charles tries a body kick that Islam blocks/moves away from
-Islam touches him with a jab, tries to throw a combo but Charles tries to counter, kind of sloppy with neither guy landing clean
-Charles tries a low kick that misses
-Islam is walking Charles back now, lands a really nice 2-3 before Charles can move out to the side
-Islam throws a heavy power high-kick that Charles blocks but still partially gets through because of the power of it
-Charles tries a lead straight and misses
-Charles tries a lunging hook and gets countered to the body by Islam
-Charles tries a jumping knee/switch kick and Islam throws a 2-3, hook lands and drop him, immediately moves to the arm-triangle attack and finish

***********************

The fight is mostly Charles trying stuff that doesn't work or reacting to stuff that Islam does that is working.

If we broke it down by every metric of fighting it's clear Islam was better there in this fight, there only area he got matched was clinch knees (which was a position he'd rather be in then Charles in the first place, so just by being there Charles is losing)

STAND-UP
Punches/Elbows - Islam stunned Charles to start the fight and ended it by dropping him before the submission with same combination. He repeatedly landed the same combination or variations of it (3-2 instead of 2-3). Oliviera didn't land a single clean punch, he did land a couple nice elbows in the clinch and off his back int total.
Kicks/Knees - Islam was able to avoid every single kicking attack from Charles, and was able to get in a partially blocked head-kick that got through to a degree. They both landed solid clinch knees, Islam did more in the first, Charles more in the second (not that much int total though, like 4 each)

CLINCH
Islam was able to get a takedown from this position, Charles was not (regardless of the glove grab, the takedown happened) and had to work hard to get out of the position and did not look comfortable being there for long.

GRAPPLING
Charles couldn't get a single legit submission threat going, was basically forced to play defensive guard and use attacks to create scrambles. Since he can't take Islam down his entire grappling game now needs to be effective from the bottom - Islam completely nullified it, he couldn't do anything so was forced to scramble to stand-up since would just lose slowly from bottom.

Islam defended or countered every single thing he did in this fight and didn't let him land a single effective strike at range. He basically took away all his tools and that made Oliviera try something stupid (a flying attack at range without set-up, what he did to open the fight so Islam already had a look at the attack and could now counter it).

It was an incredible display of technique dominance, which frequently gets mistaken as "competitive" by those that miss these nuances of the game or choose to see fights through a certain pinhole lens to better serve their own ego and interests.

 

[TR1]

So 1 fight at LW to win the belt, then 2 defenses against a way smaller/older FW and now talks of going to ww. This is literally facts you retarded goof. Don't want no part of charles or the other lw contenders.

Why don't you explain to us in detail why the 2nd defense was against Volk?
Who was it that pulled out last minute?

 

[Conan the K-9]

It is like we are watching entirely different things when I read these explanations.

It does seem like you intentionally forget all the effective stuff Islam did and claim that he did nothing before the finish. You also claim somehow that he landed better knees in the clinch, which is debatable (they were equal in the second, maybe he had a slight edge in that attack, though he lost that battle in the first). Then you throw in the "glove trap" to explain why he got tripped and it just seems like justifications built into excuses.

Here's my play-by-by of entirety of the fight with strikes and grappling exchanges attempted (whether landed or not):

ROUND 1

-Charles tries a jump flying knee/kick and it misses
-Charles tries a high kick and it's blocked by hand/Islam moves away
-Islam lands a straight left/right hook as Charles walks in and he backs off, face shows he's hurt even if momentarily
-Islam tries a sloppy, lunging 3-punch combination, the last of which lands on the guard but still hurt (I assume Charles was still stunned here because this is the most reckless blitz/exchange by Islam, very wild with chin up, was begging to be countered)
-Both guys throw in the pocket but nothing lands and they reset
-Charles misses a front-kick
-Islam tries a 1-2 but Charles defends
-They both try to throw but end up collapsing into a clinch, Charles grabs a body-lock and pulls Islam into half-guard
-Oliviera tries a few triangle/armbar set-ups but doesn't commit, Islam stays safe with both hands in, super-light GnP from both, Islam tries to maintain position so Oliviera opens guard and rolls for a leg-lock to use it as a sit-up, ends up with a partial body-lock as he stand-up on Islam but he spins out
-Islam lands a good knee, Charles counters back with a good one, Islam lands two more knees and this time when Charles tries to respond Islam uses it to judo throw him (did Islam grab his glove? yes. was Charles also grabbing the top of the octagon and getting warned? yes).
-Charles gets guard and Islam stays there working with super-light GnP for a minute, basically meaningless shots but keeps head into his chest/chin and pressuring him, finally with 40 seconds left he postures up and lands a really good elbow and starts throwing harder shots.
-Islam tries to stack and Oliviera lands a really solid up-kick, Islam goes back into guard and Charles lands a nice elbow.

ROUND 2

-Charles tries a front kick and misses
-Charles tries to pressure and throws a lead, Islam slips and throws a 2-punch counter (glancing, Anik over-reacts don't think either punch lands that clean)
-Islam throws a head-kick and Charles properly blocks/moves back
-Islam lands a lead hook and gets the clinch, lands a hard clinch knee, Oliviera lands a glancing clinch elbow, Charles tries an over-under/body-lock throw that doesn't work, both get up against the cage in the clinch with the over-under, Charles lands a nice short elbow as they stand, they get stuck there for 30 seconds hand-fighting, Charles lands his best clinch knee by far, then another nice short clinch knee as Islam tries to adjust the position, Islam gets double-under and tries a body-lock throw and it doesn't work, but now Charles back is flat against the cage and he's working hard to get out. Charles lands a short clinch elbow, Islam lands a nice knee to the body, Charles counters back with a nice knee.
-At this point Oliviera lets Islam take the center of the cage, tries to walk in with a push kick that misses
-Islam tries a 3-2 that misses, Charles tries to counter with a straight right but misses
-Charles lunges in with a 1-2 that misses and gets countered by Islam's same 3-2
-Charles tries a body kick that Islam blocks/moves away from
-Islam touches him with a jab, tries to throw a combo but Charles tries to counter, kind of sloppy with neither guy landing clean
-Charles tries a low kick that misses
-Islam is walking Charles back now, lands a really nice 2-3 before Charles can move out to the side
-Islam throws a heavy power high-kick that Charles blocks but still partially gets through because of the power of it
-Charles tries a lead straight and misses
-Charles tries a lunging hook and gets countered to the body by Islam
-Charles tries a jumping knee/switch kick and Islam throws a 2-3, hook lands and drop him, immediately moves to the arm-triangle attack and finish

***********************

The fight is mostly Charles trying stuff that doesn't work or reacting to stuff that Islam does that is working.

If we broke it down by every metric of fighting it's clear Islam was better there in this fight, there only area he got matched was clinch knees (which was a position he'd rather be in then Charles in the first place, so just by being there Charles is losing)

STAND-UP
Punches/Elbows - Islam stunned Charles to start the fight and ended it by dropping him before the submission with same combination. He repeatedly landed the same combination or variations of it (3-2 instead of 2-3). Oliviera didn't land a single clean punch, he did land a couple nice elbows in the clinch and off his back int total.
Kicks/Knees - Islam was able to avoid every single kicking attack from Charles, and was able to get in a partially blocked head-kick that got through to a degree. They both landed solid clinch knees, Islam did more in the first, Charles more in the second (not that much int total though, like 4 each)

CLINCH
Islam was able to get a takedown from this position, Charles was not (regardless of the glove grab, the takedown happened) and had to work hard to get out of the position and did not look comfortable being there for long.

GRAPPLING
Charles couldn't get a single legit submission threat going, was basically forced to play defensive guard and use attacks to create scrambles. Since he can't take Islam down his entire grappling game now needs to be effective from the bottom - Islam completely nullified it, he couldn't do anything so was forced to scramble to stand-up since would just lose slowly from bottom.

Islam defended or countered every single thing he did in this fight and didn't let him land a single effective strike at range. He basically took away all his tools and that made Oliviera try something stupid (a flying attack at range without set-up, what he did to open the fight so Islam already had a look at the attack and could now counter it).

It was an incredible display of technique dominance, which frequently gets mistaken as "competitive" by those that miss these nuances of the game or choose to see fights through a certain pinhole lens to better serve their own ego and interests.

First of all, Sorry Buddy, I’m just too lazy to answer and write long essays. I apologize for that.
It’s not my intentention to leave out or miss something, or make any excuses. I was just trying to explain and give an example on, how people see things different, as you were wondering that.

I see you are adamant in believing that you are right and your way of intepreting how the fight went is correct here, and I happen to disagree and so do some other people too. But that’s ok, and I have no problem with that and I feel no need to try to turn your head around.

I just saw the first fight enough competitive to not be able to tell how part 2 would go, without seeing it first. Especially how all the things came together to that fight, scedule, place and who benefitted from all that, makes me want to see this matchup on neutral ground, with no room for cheating, excuses or some shady aftermath again.

 

[checktheknuckles]

Why don't you explain to us in detail why the 2nd defense was against Volk?
Who was it that pulled out last minute?

Yes charles pulled out for injury, still less pullouts than Khabib, but that doesn't change the fact that Islam just had to fight a FW instead. Islam done beat his ass the first fight, did we really need to see Volk get brutalized again? Why is it so crazy for Islam to defend against a LW?

 

[TR1]

Yes charles pulled out for injury, still less pullouts than Khabib, but that doesn't change the fact that Islam just had to fight a FW instead. Islam done beat his ass the first fight, did we really need to see Volk get brutalized again? Why is it so crazy for Islam to defend against a LW?

Lmao what does this have to do with Khabib? Irrelivant.
Also half of Sherdog was pretending Volk won the 1st fight, let's just pretend that wasn't the case.

Good for you to admit though that Charles pulled out, and is the entire reason Volk 2 happened lats minute though. If anyone is ducking here is Charles.
Take your complains for the last minute replacement up with with the UFC.

 

[TheMMAnalyst]

First of all, Sorry Buddy, I’m just too lazy to answer and write long essays. I apologize for that.
It’s not my intentention to leave out or miss something, or make any excuses. I was just trying to explain and give an example on, how people see things different, as you were wondering that.

I see you are adamant in believing that you are right and your way of intepreting how the fight went is correct here, and I happen to disagree and so do some other people too. But that’s ok, and I have no problem with that and I feel no need to try to turn your head around.

I just saw the first fight enough competitive to not be able to tell how part 2 would go, without seeing it first. Especially how all the things came together to that fight, scedule, place and who benefitted from all that, makes me want to see this matchup on neutral ground, with no room for cheating, excuses or some shady aftermath again.

I don't mind that your responses or explanations are short, what I mind is that they don't offer any logic and/or reasonable explanation to validate your points or invalidate mine.

Obviously everyone is entitled to their opinion but what merit does an opinion hold if one can't soundly make an argument on its behalf? You seem to just want to make blanket statements about how it was competitive without rectifying the actual intangibles of what happened.

That has nothing to do with "believing I am right" or "my way of interpreting the fight is correct" - let's just look at the facts (i.e. what happened in the fight) and be honest about what happened. Charles landed zero punches or kicks (his best strike was an upkick, had a couple decent elbows and 3-4 nice knees to the body from the clinch), he landed no takedowns, he got stuck on bottom twice, he got hurt with the same combination three times, and there was never a moment where he had control of the fight.

I wrote that play-by-play with as much objectivity as possible - where does Charles do anything of significance or show any control of the fight? His best strike is an upkick from bottom after getting stuck there and stacked. He doesn't land a single clean punch or kick at range. His grappling is negated to being defensive or forcing scrambles off of submission attempts, basically meaning his offense has been negated entirely.

Now that doesn't mean the rematch wouldn't be different - I think Oliviera had eye surgery shortly thereafter and seemed to have gotten a bit of an ego (i.e. entourage of 20+ dudes copying his style, talking about himself in the third person), on top of getting his title stripped and being forced to go to Abu Dhabi to fight. So the outside variables were definitely all in Islam's favor.

Basically I ultimately can't tell if you guys that claim this fight was competitive don't understand fighting entirely or just have blinders on because you hate Islam and/or love Charles. And the main reason is because you guys refuse to make real counter-arguments on the basis of the facts. Instead it just becomes some whimsical discussion about "perspective" or "perception" when in actuality it appears to be borderline delusional refusal to accept or discuss reality.

Somehow a fight is competitive even though it went less than two rounds and one guy didn't land a single standing punch or kick of significance and was repeatedly hurt standing, thrown, controlled in the clinch and on the ground, and finished with a sub 10 seconds after getting dropped (literally got club and subbed).

Because.....that's just like your opinion, man.

 

[biscuitsbrah]

Bro don’t waste your time with people who clearly don’t know what they’re watching and then refuse to defend their stance @TheMMAnalyst

 

[xhaydenx]

He threw the knee because he felt this fight slipping away. This shit wasnt workin

He'd tried literally everything - offensive grappling, grappling off his back, striking at range, striking aggressive in close - and literally nothing was working at all.

Then he started to lose confidence and he tried some jumping kick, got countered easily and then subbed even easier.

Charles landed like 2 significant strikes, a clinch knee while he was defending against the cage and an upkick at the end of round 1 lol. Him being the aggressor for a lot on the feet doesn't mean it was "competitive". He was literally landing nothing as a result and just getting countered.

Dude lost clearly in all areas that he could have lost in an MMA fight.

It was an ass whooping.

 

[Conan the K-9]

I don't mind that your responses or explanations are short, what I mind is that they don't offer any logic and/or reasonable explanation to validate your points or invalidate mine.

Obviously everyone is entitled to their opinion but what merit does an opinion hold if one can't soundly make an argument on its behalf? You seem to just want to make blanket statements about how it was competitive without rectifying the actual intangibles of what happened.

That has nothing to do with "believing I am right" or "my way of interpreting the fight is correct" - let's just look at the facts (i.e. what happened in the fight) and be honest about what happened. Charles landed zero punches or kicks (his best strike was an upkick, had a couple decent elbows and 3-4 nice knees to the body from the clinch), he landed no takedowns, he got stuck on bottom twice, he got hurt with the same combination three times, and there was never a moment where he had control of the fight.

I wrote that play-by-play with as much objectivity as possible - where does Charles do anything of significance or show any control of the fight? His best strike is an upkick from bottom after getting stuck there and stacked. He doesn't land a single clean punch or kick at range. His grappling is negated to being defensive or forcing scrambles off of submission attempts, basically meaning his offense has been negated entirely.

Now that doesn't mean the rematch wouldn't be different - I think Oliviera had eye surgery shortly thereafter and seemed to have gotten a bit of an ego (i.e. entourage of 20+ dudes copying his style, talking about himself in the third person), on top of getting his title stripped and being forced to go to Abu Dhabi to fight. So the outside variables were definitely all in Islam's favor.

Basically I ultimately can't tell if you guys that claim this fight was competitive don't understand fighting entirely or just have blinders on because you hate Islam and/or love Charles. And the main reason is because you guys refuse to make real counter-arguments on the basis of the facts. Instead it just becomes some whimsical discussion about "perspective" or "perception" when in actuality it appears to be borderline delusional refusal to accept or discuss reality.

Somehow a fight is competitive even though it went less than two rounds and one guy didn't land a single standing punch or kick of significance and was repeatedly hurt standing, thrown, controlled in the clinch and on the ground, and finished with a sub 10 seconds after getting dropped (literally got club and subbed).

Because.....that's just like your opinion, man.

You see, it does not matter if I write short or long, you have already made your mind and and nothing what I say changes that. And all what I say is wrong… so it does not make sense arguing or even trying to explain things to you. In reality you don’t want to understand.
Perspective, opinion, delusion and so on. You said it your self.
Just like I said before dead road and a waiste of energy.

I have already posted a video to this thread, and I agree 100% with that. There is explanation enough and no need for long play for play posts. Even the half blind and biased ones would see.
Maybe you want to watch that?
I have also posted the official stats to this thread. Maybe you want to check them too, before saying that one fighter did not land anything and the other landed and controlled all the time?

I disagree with you about the clinch situations and I also disagree about who dictated the grappling exchanges. It was a very close fight.
And being able to defend submissions, sitting inside the opponents closed guard with no real own offense, does not mean one is in charge of the happenings?

I know some people even still claim that FKL won the grappling in the fight against Oliveira.
There is zero reason trying to explain what is actually happening in those exchanges to people like that. Just a waiste of time, dead road.

 

[MarleyLynx]

Charles made a mistake in R1 trying to grapple with Islam and got Judo throwed.

That judo throw was the result of glove grabbing.
3 minutes in - glove grabs and Oliveira is unable to regain control over his arm and gets rotated for the throw. You can see Islam still holding it trying to secure side control as they fall.

 

[moreorless87]

Largely agree with this take!

People will remember how the fight ended, as well as the small bits of action in an otherwise uneventful (but still interesting) fight. This leads them to think that Islam dominated.

Upon rewatching, I’m impressed with Islam’s striking defense and counters. Charles couldn’t get going because Islam was hard to land clean on, and maybe he was a little wary of the TD. Islam countered cleanly when Charles overextended.

You could argue that Charles’ inability to get offense going on the feet led to the ill-fated flying knee.

That does generally seem like good tactics vs Charles though, not allow him to make it a war by threatening a takedown he needs to respect because you can arguebly hurt him on the ground and then counter him when he does for something aggressive to try and turn the fight.

Playing a slow technical kickboxing game to deal with this is not really Charles style.