John Fury v Carl Froch

you two are taking the piss surely?
 
Kovalev's Man Bag said:
Tyson may've left the household and started his own family but John would remain the patriarch of their family. John wouldn't lose the title until death. All of this goes back to biblical times. It's the same on the maternal side. The mother, or occasionally the eldest female of a family, is the matriarch. Tyson will never have seniority in his family. Why? He's not the most senior member and he's the offspring of the man that is, John.
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I believe you are using the definition of patriarch as "oldest male in a family" whereas I am using the definition "oldest *and dominant* male in a family". In the past traditions (including biblical) these used to be equivalent. Currently, they are not the the same.

(edit: removed unintended text)
 
prikoke said:
I believe you are using the definition of patriarch as "oldest male in a family" whereas I am using the definition "oldest *and dominant* male in a family". In the past traditions (including biblical) these used to be equivalent. Currently, they are not the the same.

(edit: removed unintended text)
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It applies to either the father or the eldest male within that family unit/group. John is both. We know the word's meaning hasn't changed throughout history otherwise its etymology would reflect it. It's remained the same. Feel free to check it yourself. Patriarch, the word itself, is prefixed by 'pa' (father) or 'pat' (paternal). The same with matriarch, 'ma' (mother) or 'mat' (maternal). That's not a coincidence.
 
Kovalev's Man Bag said:
It applies to either the father or the eldest male within that family unit/group. John is both. We know the word's meaning hasn't changed throughout history otherwise its etymology would reflect it. It's remained the same. Feel free to check it yourself. Patriarch, the word itself, is prefixed by 'pa' (father) or 'pat' (paternal). The same with matriarch, 'ma' (mother) or 'mat' (maternal). That's not a coincidence.
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The word is made of "patria" (family) and "archein" (to rule). In many traditional societies the "ruler of the family" would be the oldest living male, but that's no longer true. (The word "pater" to mean father is derived from the word for family.)

Its etymology also has changed and expanded. Originally in antiquity it meant "man who exercised autocratic authority as a pater familias over an  extended family". Then it acquired biblical (Patriarchs of Israel) and ecclesiastical meaning in Christianity (e.g. the Patriarch of Constantinople). Later it also begun to be used to mean founder of a dynasty or famous family lineage. For example John D. Rockefeller is still called the patriarch of the Rockefeller family, despite being long dead by now (that's something that does not apply to his father or son).
 
John Fury doesn't fight anymore, and his last notable fight was a car auction in town, where he removed an old rivals eyeball in front of his kids. His brother is a proper and feared hard man, but John is living it up through his sons. Froch would fucking hurt this man, either in a ring or on the tarmac.
 
prikoke said:
The word is made of "patria" (family) and "archein" (to rule). In many traditional societies the "ruler of the family" would be the oldest living male, but that's no longer true. (The word "pater" to mean father is derived from the word for family.)

Its etymology also has changed and expanded. Originally in antiquity it meant "man who exercised autocratic authority as a pater familias over an  extended family". Then it acquired biblical (Patriarchs of Israel) and ecclesiastical meaning in Christianity (e.g. the Patriarch of Constantinople). Later it also begun to be used to mean founder of a dynasty or famous family lineage. For example John D. Rockefeller is still called the patriarch of the Rockefeller family, despite being long dead by now (that's something that does not apply to his father or son).
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The term, like most others, has multiple definitions. We're not concerned with its usage in other contexts (religious or otherwise). Only as it relates in the familial sense, in this case, biologically. That's all that applies here.
 
Athenry04 said:
John Fury doesn't fight anymore, and his last notable fight was a car auction in town, where he removed an old rivals eyeball in front of his kids. His brother is a proper and feared hard man, but John is living it up through his sons. Froch would fucking hurt this man, either in a ring or on the tarmac.
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I actually like Peter. He's much more honest and doesn't play the tough old man 24/7 like his brother. John is living vicariously through his sons and overcompensating. He's a mental midget.
 
Kovalev's Man Bag said:
I actually like Peter. He's much more honest and doesn't play the tough old man 24/7 like his brother. John is living vicariously through his sons and overcompensating. He's a mental midget.
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Pete Fury is a top lad, but trust me he was a serious gangster back in the day. Old school, keeps his head down, but the real deal.
 
Athenry04 said:
Pete Fury is a top lad, but trust me he was a serious gangster back in the day. Old school, keeps his head down, but the real deal.
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I know a little about Peter's past as I do John's. Both are ex-cons. Only Peter is actually level headed and comes off as a genuine guy. John though might as well be acting full-time in front of the camera. Always performing for his audience.
 
Kovalev's Man Bag said:
I know a little about Peter's past as I do John's. Both are ex-cons. Only Peter is actually level headed and comes off as a genuine guy. John though might as well be acting full-time in front of the camera. Always performing for his audience.
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He's a great interview, and understands the game inside out. If he was still training Tyson, then all this shit would not be happening fact. If Usyk beats Tyson, then Tyson only has himself to blame.
 
Athenry04 said:
He's a great interview, and understands the game inside out. If he was still training Tyson, then all this shit would not be happening fact. If Usyk beats Tyson, then Tyson only has himself to blame.
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Does Peter still train Savannah Marshall?
 
Athenry04 said:
As far as I'm aware, but she's been quiet since her last fight. He really should have more fighters but he took a step back after the fall out. And I have no idea if Hughie will ever fight again.
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I know that Peter also trained Rico Verhoeven. Whether he still does or not, I don't know. Rico credits the Furys for developing his jab and boxing skills.
 
Kovalev's Man Bag said:
The term, like most others, has multiple definitions. We're not concerned with its usage in other contexts (religious or otherwise). Only as it relates in the familial sense, in this case, biologically. That's all that applies here.
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The familial sense also changed. The original, Roman, meaning, applied only to pater familias, who legally had control and responsibility over the whole extended family (families of non-Roman citizens, for example, would not have a patriarch at all). It now became more of a colloquial term.
 
prikoke said:
The familial sense also changed. The original, Roman, meaning, applied only to pater familias, who legally had control and responsibility over the whole extended family (families of non-Roman citizens, for example, would not have a patriarch at all). It now became more of a colloquial term.
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If you want to test it then next time you sit down at the dinner table (father and/or grandfather present) go ahead and claim that you're the patriarch of your family and see how it goes. It won't go well.
 
Kovalev's Man Bag said:
If you want to test it then next time you sit down at the dinner table (father and/or grandfather present) go ahead and claim that you're the patriarch of your family and see how it goes. It won't go well.
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Why would I do that, when that was never the claim I was making? The whole point is that not every family has a patriarch. If the oldest male is not respected and not regarded as the dominant person in the family, he's not the patriarch.

in the same vein, gave Errol Musk tell Elon Musk he's the patriarch at the dinner table (if they even sit at the same table anymore), and it will go way worse than my hypothetical dinner conversation (and not just from Elon, but from pretty much every one else in the family).
 
prikoke said:
Why would I do that, when that was never the claim I was making? The whole point is that not every family has a patriarch. If the oldest male is not respected and not regarded as the dominant person in the family, he's not the patriarch.

in the same vein, gave Errol Musk tell Elon Musk he's the patriarch at the dinner table (if they even sit at the same table anymore), and it will go way worse than my hypothetical dinner conversation (and not just from Elon, but from pretty much every one else in the family).
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But the Fury family does have one. Ask Tommy. He even said that he "fears" John much worse than he does Tyson. His words. Most families do still sit together at the dinner table for the holidays (Thanksgiving, Christmas, Easter, etc). It's tradition.
 
TheGreatA said:
John always seems to pretend that he wasn't a tomato can in boxing.
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Yeah he was flattened by journeyman Steve Garber (20W, 25L) yet talks like he was a real force in Boxing back in his day <Dany07>
 
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