Judo vs wrestling.

[ShinkanPo]

This thread again?

Listen to these angry wrasslers.

"muh folkstyle!"

@TheRassler

 

[ShinkanPo]

Dan Severn showed em

 

[ShinkanPo]

Hahhahahaha funny

 

[Claude]

America is the only place where MMA is a legitimate sport. It's a backwater niche freakshow entity elsewhere

False and irrelevant.

The UFC is the main MMA promotion on the planet. Every single aspiring MMA competitor wants to get to the UFC.

The UFC has no competitive architecture. They don't have a selection process based on quality whatsoever. There are no trials, no qualifiers, nothing. It's not the Olympics where one athlete comes out on top of thousands.

Anybody can fight in the UFC from a skill standpoint. From the guy who barely even had a fight to the decorated fighter. People want to fight there because that's were the money and recognition is.

That's like saying "the only reason AAU guys dominate the NBA is because they're American & the NBA is an American based organization" hurrrrp durrrrrrrrp. There's a reason NBA dropout bums like Steph Marbury go over to China & look like Michael fucking Jordan.

Nope, that's different.

Basketball is a major american sport. It's a big part of the american culture, thus they have more aspiring basketball players than anywhere in the world, thus there's more competition. They also have resources, infrastructure, education, etc. So it's no surprise than a low caliber NBA player can look great in countries where basketball is not nearly as big and there's less infrastructure, education, etc.

Same reason why the US is mediocre at soccer. Interest is lower and there's no much support compared to other countries.

MMA is different. MMA fighters usually come from other combat sports. The guys who transtition well and become well rounded are the ones who succeed. Wrestlers were initially moping the floor with strikers, but getting triangled choked and armbarred by bjj fighters. Those who adapted and learned to defend subs became more successful. Strikers learned to defend TD's and wrestlers began having a harder time with them.

The background became less relevant and it was more about adapting.

Same reason a top Folkstyle athlete like Ben Askren, who has no striking to speak of whatsoever, goes to Asia & runs through whatever they've got over there like a knife through hot butter.

How does that prove anything?

A lot of non wrestlers have run through (better) competition. In fact some of the most dominant fighters ever were not folkstyle wrestlers:

Fedor: Judo and Sambo
Nogueira: Judo and bjj
Anderson Silva: Judo, bjj, MT
GSP: Karate and wrestling (not folkstyle)
Aldo: bjj

Furthermore, collegiate wrestlers were not nearly as dominant in Japan where they were not a majority and the rules didn't favor them as much. Eg. Takedowns and top position didn't award as many points as they do in america. On the other hand, they've been more successful on US based companies that sign plenty of collegiate wrestlers and fight under rules that favor them.

American HS/Collegiate wrestling is the most effective form of combat on the planet. It's been proven time & time again.

Wrong. In their pure form

Bjj > Folkstyle wrestling

As an MMA base, they both work. Like I said it's more about transitioning.

Cheers.

 

[FromTheSouth]

Notif.

 

[Deleted member 535377]

There is a misrepresentation here of Judo.
Learning Judo and learning Olympic Judo are two very different things. Olympic Judo and various national Judo associations have removed large parts of Judo that "score" and also, Judo councils seem to piss in their pants in that any clubs teaching Judo or MMA or being a part of, are excluded from their little pussy associations.

Full Judo, in all of it's glory hails below the waist sweeps, dumps and take-downs but competition judo changes it all.
Better to learn full unadulterated Kodokan (Kano's) Judo, than competition Judo to translate best to MMA.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Kodokan_judo_techniques#Katamewaza_(grappling_techniques)

 

[Deleted member 535377]

 

[ShinkanPo]

False and irrelevant.



The UFC has no competitive architecture. They don't have a selection process based on quality whatsoever. There are no trials, no qualifiers, nothing. It's not the Olympics where one athlete comes out on top of thousands.

Anybody can fight in the UFC from a skill standpoint. From the guy who barely even had a fight to the decorated fighter. People want to fight there because that's were the money and recognition is.



Nope, that's different.

Basketball is a major american sport. It's a big part of the american culture, thus they have more aspiring basketball players than anywhere in the world, thus there's more competition. They also have resources, infrastructure, education, etc. So it's no surprise than a low caliber NBA player can look great in countries where basketball is not nearly as big and there's less infrastructure, education, etc.

Same reason why the US is mediocre at soccer. Interest is lower and there's no much support compared to other countries.

MMA is different. MMA fighters usually come from other combat sports. The guys who transtition well and become well rounded are the ones who succeed. Wrestlers were initially moping the floor with strikers, but getting triangled choked and armbarred by bjj fighters. Those who adapted and learned to defend subs became more successful. Strikers learned to defend TD's and wrestlers began having a harder time with them.

The background became less relevant and it was more about adapting.



How does that prove anything?

A lot of non wrestlers have run through (better) competition. In fact some of the most dominant fighters ever were not folkstyle wrestlers:

Fedor: Judo and Sambo
Nogueira: Judo and bjj
Anderson Silva: Judo, bjj, MT
GSP: Karate and wrestling (not folkstyle)
Aldo: bjj

Furthermore, collegiate wrestlers were not nearly as dominant in Japan where they were not a majority and the rules didn't favor them as much. Eg. Takedowns and top position didn't award as many points as they do in america. On the other hand, they've been more successful on US based companies that sign plenty of collegiate wrestlers and fight under rules that favor them.



Wrong. In their pure form

Bjj > Folkstyle wrestling

As an MMA base, they both work. Like I said it's more about transitioning.

Cheers.

I agree with all these, but Anderson Silva is still Goat!!

 

[ShinkanPo]

There is a misrepresentation here of Judo.
Learning Judo and learning Olympic Judo are two very different things. Olympic Judo and various national Judo associations have removed large parts of Judo that "score" and also, Judo councils seem to piss in their pants in that any clubs teaching Judo or MMA or being a part of, are excluded from their little pussy associations.

Full Judo, in all of it's glory hails below the waist sweeps, dumps and take-downs but competition judo changes it all.
Better to learn full unadulterated Kodokan (Kano's) Judo, than competition Judo to translate best to MMA.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Kodokan_judo_techniques#Katamewaza_(grappling_techniques)

Wasn't Don Frye and Dan Severn have Judo Black belts but it seems they are not that good with Submissions specially when Severn started.

I am no ground hog expert though

 

[deev]

Nope. Compared to American HS & Collegiate Wrestling, Judo is a working man's "sport". They don't implement extreme conditioning, strength training, & weight cutting at early ages within the Judo world. There is conditioning implemented to a certain degree at the highest levels, but the focus is almost purely upon technique.

The biggest thing that separates US Folkstyle from Judo & other TMA grappling styles, is the ruthless, bully culture that is intrinsic to it's nature. The mean-spirited, uber-aggressive aesthetic. Respect isn't valued at all. Demoralizing your opponent & destroying them at all costs is the only thing that matters. Bigger, faster, stronger, more aggressive. That's really why it lends itself so well to real fighting.

Teach a top level Folkstyle guy (or even a mid/lower-level Folkstyle athlete like Jon Jones) how to hit people in the face, along with some rudimentary submission skills, & you've got a killing machine.

I was by no means an elite level Judoka but I did make it into the Scottish Cadet squad in my teens and see what you just said about conditioning or the lack of it in Judo? That's a load of bollocks that is.

 

[ShinkanPo]

I was by no means an elite level Judoka but I did make it into the Scottish Cadet squad in my teens and see what you just said about conditioning or the lack of it in Judo? That's a load of bollocks that is.

I think the poster you quote has issues.

 

[Syncretist]

Had akiyama not been a ethnic Korean born in Japan. He would have made many olympic national teams. The guy is an Asian games judo gold medalist.

A long time lurker here, but I decided to post, because you seem to be repeating Akiyama's one-sided - and frankly deceitful - claims, and those claims do a great disservice to Korean judo, to competitors who legitimately beat him, and ultimately to truth. To be straightforward: Akiyama failed to consistently make the South Korean national team, simply because he was not good enough to consistently make the team. As a South Korean national and someone who knows the local judo scene very well, I hope I can clarify the matters a bit.

First, the context: South Korea in recent years - obviously along with Japan - has been arguably one of the two strongest judo powerhouses in the world except at the higher weights (where Europeans tend to do better due in large part to physical superiority). As a result, making the national team is not exactly easy. As I explained to a friend a long time ago, when Yoon Dong-sik went around making similar claims about being jobbed by local judo politics: Representing South Korea or Japan in judo is akin to representing Brazil in soccer. That is, you can be among the best in the world and still not come remotely close to making the team. Remember how Deco - one-time UEFA club player of the year - had to settle with playing for Portugal, because Brazil already had Rivaldo and Ronaldinho among attacking midfielders? Likewise, in judo you can be literally the 2nd best competitor in the world at your weight and rarely make the South Korean or Japanese national team, because the guy in front of you happens to be the best in the world. In fact, in some cases, the top 3 competitors in the world in a given weight could be Koreans (or Japanese), and the 3rd best competitor in the world would not even have any hope of making the national team, barring a chain of lucky events.

Let me give you one well-known recent example where the scenario I sketched above actually occurred. Lee Won-hee arguably had the most dominant one year or so stretch in world competitive judo history when he won 40-plus matches in a row by ippon and won the 2004 Olympic Gold in a dominant fashion. The expectation in the judo world, given Lee's seeming invincibility then, was that Lee would replace Jeon Ki-young as the greatest Korean judoka ever and rule the weight for at least another half a decade. Yet, he pretty much disappeared from international competition soon after and failed to make the 2008 Olympic team - which prompted casual judo fans, especially those in Korea, to wonder whether Lee was unfairly kept from the national team. But nothing of the nature occurred. In truth, Lee continuously kept losing to Wang Ki-chun, the boy prodigy, who won his first world title at 19 and would've likely won the 2008 Olympic Gold had he not broken his ribs.

Still more remarkable, Lee Won-hee was not the only Olympic Gold medalist and world champion kept from the national team by Wang's brilliance. Kim Jae-bum - who was also a future Olympic Gold medalist and two-time world champion - could not make the team either, because he, too, kept losing to Wang. Indeed, Kim only started to make the national team when he moved up in weight - and he began to dominate the world stage as thoroughly as Wang did once he did move up.

(As a corollary, when Song Dae-nam - a complete unknown at the world stage - won the 2012 Olympic Gold at age 33, people wondered where he came from and automatically assumed that he, too, had been kept from the national team unfairly. But again, the truth was more mundane: Song couldn't make the team because he - you guessed it! - could not beat Kim Jae-bum, and he could only make the team by moving up in weight!)

So in essence South Korea had arguably the top 3 competitors in the world at the same weight in the mid-2000s - and all of them would win either multiple world titles or a world title plus an Olympic gold. So being a one-time winner in Asian Games - which frankly is way down in prestige relative to Olympics or the world championships - does not automatically mean you are good enough to consistently make the national team. In fact, making the South Korean or the Japanese team is harder than winning a gold at the Asian Games most of the time in terms of the competition you have to beat. To win an Asian games gold, you likely have to beat one wold class competitor at most (South Korean, if you are Japanese; and Japanese, if you are South Korean), whereas you have to beat multiple world class competitors to make the national team.

Now, let us return to Akiyama's situation. The weight that Akiyama competed at was not only a loaded weight simply because the scene is South Korea, but it had arguably been the most competitive weight in South Korean judo history for a decade. Earlier in the 1990s, you had three competitors who were likely among the top 4 or 5 competitors in the world - the best among them being Jeon Ki-young, who won three consecutive world titles and an Olympic gold, and who is universally considered the greatest Korean judoka ever. And yes, Yoon Dong-sik - who was unfortunately only the 2nd best competitor in the world at this weight then - had trouble making the national team for important meets, because of Jeon. Now move forward another half decade to late 1990s, when Akiyama entered the South Korean judo scene from Pusan. Jeon was long retired, but Yoon was still around. Moreover, Cho In-chul - two-time world champion who should've won the Gold when he lost arguably unfairly to Koga (who is one of the greatest Japanese judokas ever and up there with Jeon among the greatest of this generation) - had arguably surpassed Yoon.

So Akiyama was at best the third best competitor in the Korean scene at this time; it is not surprising then that Akiyama could not crack through. He wasn't better than Yoon, and he wasn't better than Cho, when he came on the scene. And once Yoon moved up in weight and Cho faded due to age, Akiyama did make the national team and had mixed results - winning the Asian games, but also failing to medal at the world championship and ignominiously being disqualified through cheating (a common theme in his career).

TLDR: Akiyama was very good. He was likely a top 10 judoka in the world in his prime. But to make the South Korean national team at his weight, he would have needed to be top 1-2, and that he was not. As a result, he seldom made the team. As simple as that.

 

[alexsarmin]

I do mostly judo but also freestyle wrestling and sparr with all type of grapplers. I find that in no gi judo has the advantage over greco if the opponent is of equal level since they are vurnable to judo style leg attacks and have a hard time throwing upper body as the judoka is used to upper body throws.

Freestyle and judo is closely matched and depends on the style. If the judoka can sprawl well and the wrestler is aswell aware of the judo style attacks then it's a close match and can go either way. I would say judo has the advantage in throws, sweeps, trips while freestyle has advantage in leg leg grab takedowns.
Which will be best depends on your style.

I think it depends alot on the style and if the judoka can sprawl well as wrestlers most do leg attack like single, double high c, and if the wrestler can defend well against the judokas leg attacks such as osoto, ouchi gari, kosoto and uchi mata.

A recent sparring between Fabio Basile (gold medalist judoka) and Frank Chamizo (gold medalist freestyle wrestler)



This shows only the stand-up part and getting a throw/takedown sparring.

 

[Eater of Souls]

Strong necro.

 

[Lonewolfmcquade]

Catch wrestlers have pretty shitty takedowns, they are a lot better than bjj takedowns, but you're not going to take someone down who is better at it than you. Freestyle/folkstyle > catch.

But the best top position of the grappling arts

 

[Lonewolfmcquade]

Judo wins even against no gi

 

[Lonewolfmcquade]

I do mostly judo but also freestyle wrestling and sparr with all type of grapplers. I find that in no gi judo has the advantage over greco if the opponent is of equal level since they are vurnable to judo style leg attacks and have a hard time throwing upper body as the judoka is used to upper body throws.

Freestyle and judo is closely matched and depends on the style. If the judoka can sprawl well and the wrestler is aswell aware of the judo style attacks then it's a close match and can go either way. I would say judo has the advantage in throws, sweeps, trips while freestyle has advantage in leg leg grab takedowns.
Which will be best depends on your style.

I think it depends alot on the style and if the judoka can sprawl well as wrestlers most do leg attack like single, double high c, and if the wrestler can defend well against the judokas leg attacks such as osoto, ouchi gari, kosoto and uchi mata.

A recent sparring between Fabio Basile (gold medalist judoka) and Frank Chamizo (gold medalist freestyle wrestler)



This shows only the stand-up part and getting a throw/takedown sparring.

I've heard this from other wrestlers as well. Why do you think it is that Judo has an advantage in throws/clinch? Things get more technical in a gi which translates over to no gi?

 

[alexsarmin]

I've heard this from other wrestlers as well. Why do you think it is that Judo has an advantage in throws/clinch? Things get more technical in a gi which translates over to no gi?

I think it's because the wrestler is not as used to throwing/tripping as a judoka is. I find that generally wrestlers are easier to takedown from the clinch then judokas because of this. Wrestlers a more used to the wrestling game which is to leg grab. There are throws, trips and sweeps in wrestling aswell but it is not as emphazied as in judo because of the rule set. In freestyle from standup position you can score by pushing out the opponent, back take, and if you go for a takedown/throw but you would rather go for a leg grab as it is less risky (no subs allowed). In judo from a standup position the only way to score is to Throw, trip, sweep the person cleanly to the back or to the side. I believe once i clinch up with the wrestler i am aware of his only option is going for the legs so i tie him up well with a overhook or underhook so that i have control on one side and i stand with one leg forward so he only can go for the single. Then i go sweeps, osoto, uchi gari, kosoto, kouchi and uchi mata. And it is easier to takedown a wrestler with these throws then doing these throws on a judoka as the judoka is more aware of the judo throws/trips

 

[Lonewolfmcquade]

I think it's because the wrestler is not as used to throwing/tripping as a judoka is. I find that generally wrestlers are easier to takedown from the clinch then judokas because of this. Wrestlers a more used to the wrestling game which is to leg grab. There are throws, trips and sweeps in wrestling aswell but it is not as emphazied as in judo because of the rule set. In freestyle from standup position you can score by pushing out the opponent, back take, and if you go for a takedown/throw but you would rather go for a leg grab as it is less risky (no subs allowed). In judo from a standup position the only way to score is to Throw, trip, sweep the person cleanly to the back or to the side. I believe once i clinch up with the wrestler i am aware of his only option is going for the legs so i tie him up well with a overhook or underhook so that i have control on one side and i stand with one leg forward so he only can go for the single. Then i go sweeps, osoto, uchi gari, kosoto, kouchi and uchi mata. And it is easier to takedown a wrestler with these throws then doing these throws on a judoka as the judoka is more aware of the judo throws/trips

But why aren't even Greco Romans as good at throwing?

 

[Lonewolfmcquade]

I think it's because the wrestler is not as used to throwing/tripping as a judoka is. I find that generally wrestlers are easier to takedown from the clinch then judokas because of this. Wrestlers a more used to the wrestling game which is to leg grab. There are throws, trips and sweeps in wrestling aswell but it is not as emphazied as in judo because of the rule set. In freestyle from standup position you can score by pushing out the opponent, back take, and if you go for a takedown/throw but you would rather go for a leg grab as it is less risky (no subs allowed). In judo from a standup position the only way to score is to Throw, trip, sweep the person cleanly to the back or to the side. I believe once i clinch up with the wrestler i am aware of his only option is going for the legs so i tie him up well with a overhook or underhook so that i have control on one side and i stand with one leg forward so he only can go for the single. Then i go sweeps, osoto, uchi gari, kosoto, kouchi and uchi mata. And it is easier to takedown a wrestler with these throws then doing these throws on a judoka as the judoka is more aware of the judo throws/trips

Btw, does someone starting Judo today up to Black belt know anything about leg takedowns? Will they get taken down like a kid in freestyle rules by a freestyle wrestlers? Is it still trained even though it's taken out of competition?