Kyoji Horiguchi (7-1 ufc) what gives?

[CC27]

Its simple, certain fighters can make more money fighting in a market they are from.

Horiguchi is awesome but he's a Flyweight, he already was easily beaten by the champ, he's from a market UFC only goes once a year.

To Rizin he's more valuable.

Same with someone like Mamed is more valuable to KSW than he would be to UFC. Or Al Capone is more valuable and can make more fighting in Russia.

 

[kingcillo24]

He's one of the best Flyweights period.

He's just worth more to Rizin than to the UFC imo. As good as he is, he wouldn't touch the belt as long as DJ is around. Rizin can make him a japanese superstar and offer him more money.

 

[Danespina]

So that's why Horiguchi's been wearing headphones all weekend.

And speaking of tunnel vision I think sometimes UFC has that when creating stars. They don't see the potential bigger picture.

UFC's attendance at the Saitama Super Arena has been suffering for the last 5 years, starting with around 25,000 fans, and dropping year after year till most recently it shrunk down to 8000 (Okami vs. Saint Preux).

Rizin on the other hand just sold two back to back shows headlined by Kyoji Horiguchi and about doubled UFC's attendance both times (15,000'ish).

I'm not claiming that's all on account of Horiguchi, but still there he is as a viable Japanese headliner looking like the next Kid Yamamoto or Takanori Gomi. If UFC thinks they couldn't have got much value out of him that's kind of on them, and indicative of a bigger problem.

 

[Cheapshart]

He's a smart kid. The UFC didn't think he was worth the money he could earn in Japan so he went to Japan. No bridges burned so there's a route back when the money is right.

Your average American fighter would sign a contract they're not happy with and then whine about it on Twitter every day.

 

[eseseses681]

He outstruck a post-2013 Demetrious for a couple rounds (outside the clinch that is) and kept the striking pretty competitive afterwards despite gassing from Demetrious' clinch and ground game. I think that says something real good about Kyoji.
He was on his way to getting a rematch with Demetrious-- only another win or two, and even if he lost he'd only have been another two away-- but, I really like Kyoji, but I don't think he really has right now much of a chance against Demetrious. He had- and still has really good chances against everyone else in the division, including Benavidez and Cejudo (and even counting in the former-flyweights Dodson and Lineker), and he improved a lot and is still getting better, but there was just nothing really different about his game that would give Demetrious a challenge. He was just getting better with all his old stuff.
Demetrious is a guy who thrives on knowing what his opponents are gonna do and having skills that are prepared for it, like his Georges St-Pierre-esque counter shoots and entrances into the clinch whenever his opponents overextend themselves a little bit. And Kyoji's just been focusing on improving his same, like, 5 moves (his leap-jab, his cheat-hook, his bob-and-hook combo, his light Karaté round kicks that mostly land with his foot, and his overhand-right) and button smashing them. Seriously, pay attention to that from now on; he'll throw almost nothing else of value except one of those strikes.
Demetrious isn't some unbeatable force in the division that nobody within it has a chance to beat like people think, but I don't think Kyoji's improvements are enough to beat it (not unless he has some secret weapon he hasn't had a chance to show off.)

And RIZIN offered him a better contract, and he always looked a little off at flyweight to me anyways. He looks a lot healthier at bantamweight, and I've never been one for the "this person is too small for this division and has to drop down before they get murdered" dialogue. And come to think of it, I don't think it's a coincidence that he only finished one of his 7 wins at flyweight and 11 of his 14 victories at bantamweight (it's not exactly like his flyweight decisioners were so much more durable than a lot of the guys he fought at bantamweight.)

 

[Danespina]

Kyoji's just been focusing on improving his same, like, 5 moves (his leap-jab, his cheat-hook, his bob-and-hook combo, his light Karaté round kicks that mostly land with his foot, and his overhand-right) and button smashing them. Seriously, pay attention to that from now on; he'll throw almost nothing else of value except one of those strikes.

You have good knowledge and obviously been paying attention to his fights with a solid eye, but he hasn't only been improving the same things. He moved to American Top Team in 2016 to work on his grappling, and as seen yesterday his takedown defence and takedowns are improving.

I also noticed that the first leg kick he threw was so hard that Oliveira started checking everything after.

And that two fights ago he was throwing knees and other sorts of clinch techniques.

And the finish yesterday actually came with a left, not right, which I only recently noticed how dangerous he was with both hands.

So even though yes, Horiguchi uses many of the techniques you mentioned. I think he's deeper than that and thought he switched everything up quite well yesterday. Would DJ still beat him? Yeah probably. But I think he would do better, and actually I could see him competing with a lot of top bantamweights like Cruz, Garbrandt, Moraes, and Lineker as well.

And he always looked a little off at flyweight to me anyways. He looks a lot healthier at bantamweight, and I've never been one for the "this person is too small for this division and has to drop down before they get murdered" dialogue.

In terms of size.

Here's a photo of Kyoji in the current Bantamweight Grand Prix he's in


And here's him at his last two weigh ins at 135.

IMO he's too small for bantamweight even though he's been having a lot of success.

 

[Sakuraba7]

Well you called Elliott a can, and also said that Hiro put on the best performance of the series. The fact that Hiro lost to Elliott means both of those are objectively untrue.

If you watched their respective performances then you'd know who was the best performer in the season. Elliot was second. There's a reason why some competitions have an MVP award, it doesn't have to be the champion/winner, just who performs most impressive. Add in the fact he nearly subbed Elliot.

Elliot is a "can" (hyperbole), he's a gatekeeper at best (not hyperbole).

 

[qw3rty]

What happened to Hiromasa? The guy made it to the Finals of TUF, had the best performance on the entire show that season.

And we haven't seen him fight in the UFC even once, they decided they rather sign a can who got cut from the UFC the first time around.

yeah but he was pretty boring TBH
OTOH Guchi is an excitng fighter

 

[Danespina]

yeah but he was pretty boring TBH
OTOH Guchi is an excitng fighter

FYI Horiguchi submitted Hiromasa in 2013 to become the Shooto Bantamweight Champion.

In terms of why Hiromasa isn't in the UFC. Maybe it has something to do with UFC making it a priority to fire all the wrestlers (Phil Davis, Bader, Shields, Okami, Fitch, Rosholt etc.) while also not signing any new ones.

 

[eseseses681]

You have good knowledge and obviously been paying attention to his fights with a solid eye, but he hasn't only been improving the same things. He moved to American Top Team in 2016 to work on his grappling, and as seen yesterday his takedown defence and takedowns are improving.

I also noticed that the first leg kick he threw was so hard that Oliveira started checking everything after.

And that two fights ago he was throwing knees and other sorts of clinch techniques.

And the finish yesterday actually came with a left, not right, which I only recently noticed how dangerous he was with both hands.

So even though yes, Horiguchi uses many of the techniques you mentioned. I think he's deeper than that and thought he switched everything up quite well yesterday. Would DJ still beat him? Yeah probably. But I think he would do better, and actually I could see him competing with a lot of top bantamweights like Cruz, Garbrandt, Moraes, and Lineker as well.



In terms of size.

Here's a photo of Kyoji in the current Bantamweight Grand Prix he's in
View attachment 318337

And here's him at his last two weigh ins at 135.

View attachment 318339

IMO he's too small for bantamweight even though he's been having a lot of success.

I decided to not be nitpicky and include slightly more effectiveness with ancillary moves as proof of some kind of game-changing evolution. He'll have to land a lot more telling shots with those moves and not have something like a 9-1 ratio of my aforementioned moves to other stuff to really say he's changed and isn't just better. A front-kick's the only thing he's really added effectively in the last few years, I forgot to say.
His takedown and grappling game is still pretty much the same, too, but it would've gotten too wordy for me to bring up that stuff. He's been doing that underhook-reversal w/leg-trip takedown at least since he fought Ian Loveland, and I'm pretty sure he did it against Montague. He's cleaned it up a lot, but it's an old move. And he's been doing the same stuff to land his ground 'n pound since he fought Manabu Inoue I believe.
He also used that same move (the bob-hook combo) to knock down Dustin Pague.

Besides that, pictures are misleading when it comes to determining an ideal weight-class. It's like judging the winner of a fight by whose face is more swollen; that's not how it works. Just the fact that he has so many knockouts at bantamweight and so few at flyweight shows that size isn't much of a factor with him. Tom Lawlor wasn't exactly a big middleweight, but he said outright that light-heavyweight's better for him, and his 6-2 record at light-heavyweight compared to his 4-4 middleweight record shows it might be better to give up some size.

I'm not against him using the same moves over and over again, either. I really like Koji Ando's striking just because it's nothing but a 1-2-3 boxing game. It's just not likely to work against Demetrious is all cuz' he hasn't changed enough yet.

 

[Danespina]

I decided to not be nitpicky and include slightly more effectiveness with ancillary moves as proof of some kind of game-changing evolution. He'll have to land a lot more telling shots with those moves and not have something like a 9-1 ratio of my aforementioned moves to other stuff to really say he's changed and isn't just better. A front-kick's the only thing he's really added effectively in the last few years, I forgot to say.
His takedown and grappling game is still pretty much the same, too, but it would've gotten too wordy for me to bring up that stuff. He's been doing that underhook-reversal w/leg-trip takedown at least since he fought Ian Loveland, and I'm pretty sure he did it against Montague. He's cleaned it up a lot, but it's an old move. And he's been doing the same stuff to land his ground 'n pound since he fought Manabu Inoue I believe.
He also used that same move (the bob-hook combo) to knock down Dustin Pague.

Besides that, pictures are misleading when it comes to determining an ideal weight-class. It's like judging the winner of a fight by whose face is more swollen; that's not how it works. Just the fact that he has so many knockouts at bantamweight and so few at flyweight shows that size isn't much of a factor with him. Tom Lawlor wasn't exactly a big middleweight, but he said outright that light-heavyweight's better for him, and his 6-2 record at light-heavyweight compared to his 4-4 middleweight record shows it might be better to give up some size.

I'm not against him using the same moves over and over again, either. I really like Koji Ando's striking just because it's nothing but a 1-2-3 boxing game. It's just not likely to work against Demetrious is all cuz' he hasn't changed enough yet.

Cool well I'll take a look out for some of the stuff you mentioned. Luckily he's fighting at least once again in 17 hours.

I wasin't trying to say he's changed his game, just that he's been adding to it, but that'll be clearer with the more upcoming footage we have.

I stand by that I think he's small for bantamweight. While pictures do lie I don't think they are with Horiguchi. The size disadvantage is very apparent espessially when he's facing guys coming down from feather. You can point to his decisions at flyweight as a reason on why that division isn't best for him, but even in some of those 125 bouts where he went the distance, he was still knocking guys around. See vs. Neil Seery below.

 

[tinobar]

Kape will send him back to the ufc

 

[Plissken]

What's interesting to me is that The Gooch hasn't regressed in his standup at ATT unlike Joanna has. I'm guessing he has kept his standup coaches he had prior and is merely adding to what he already had there.

 

[Senzo Tanaka]

His contract was up and RIZIN offered him a better deal. That's pretty much the story. He also wasn't happy with waiting on fights and wanted to fight at least 3 times a year.

RIZIN isn't strict like UFC so he can fight as much as he wants.

 

[Toco]

He outstruck a post-2013 Demetrious for a couple rounds (outside the clinch that is) and kept the striking pretty competitive afterwards despite gassing from Demetrious' clinch and ground game. I think that says something real good about Kyoji.
He was on his way to getting a rematch with Demetrious-- only another win or two, and even if he lost he'd only have been another two away-- but, I really like Kyoji, but I don't think he really has right now much of a chance against Demetrious. He had- and still has really good chances against everyone else in the division, including Benavidez and Cejudo (and even counting in the former-flyweights Dodson and Lineker), and he improved a lot and is still getting better, but there was just nothing really different about his game that would give Demetrious a challenge. He was just getting better with all his old stuff.
Demetrious is a guy who thrives on knowing what his opponents are gonna do and having skills that are prepared for it, like his Georges St-Pierre-esque counter shoots and entrances into the clinch whenever his opponents overextend themselves a little bit. And Kyoji's just been focusing on improving his same, like, 5 moves (his leap-jab, his cheat-hook, his bob-and-hook combo, his light Karaté round kicks that mostly land with his foot, and his overhand-right) and button smashing them. Seriously, pay attention to that from now on; he'll throw almost nothing else of value except one of those strikes.
Demetrious isn't some unbeatable force in the division that nobody within it has a chance to beat like people think, but I don't think Kyoji's improvements are enough to beat it (not unless he has some secret weapon he hasn't had a chance to show off.)

And RIZIN offered him a better contract, and he always looked a little off at flyweight to me anyways. He looks a lot healthier at bantamweight, and I've never been one for the "this person is too small for this division and has to drop down before they get murdered" dialogue. And come to think of it, I don't think it's a coincidence that he only finished one of his 7 wins at flyweight and 11 of his 14 victories at bantamweight (it's not exactly like his flyweight decisioners were so much more durable than a lot of the guys he fought at bantamweight.)

in the FLW division? MM seems pretty much unbeatable, that's for sure. maybe dillashaw can beat him, and that's still a maybe. you also know way more than me about MMA, so there's that, haha

 

[mime]

just watched his rizin fights, his striking going in and on guys coming in is unbelievable, accurate and clean. fun fighter

 

[spinitch]

MM did very well at BW too but think like Horiguchi like MM size wise are more optimal at FlW. Just UFC has the best FlW division led by the masterful mouse.

 

[savemgs]

You have good knowledge and obviously been paying attention to his fights with a solid eye, but he hasn't only been improving the same things. He moved to American Top Team in 2016 to work on his grappling, and as seen yesterday his takedown defence and takedowns are improving.

I also noticed that the first leg kick he threw was so hard that Oliveira started checking everything after.

And that two fights ago he was throwing knees and other sorts of clinch techniques.

And the finish yesterday actually came with a left, not right, which I only recently noticed how dangerous he was with both hands.

So even though yes, Horiguchi uses many of the techniques you mentioned. I think he's deeper than that and thought he switched everything up quite well yesterday. Would DJ still beat him? Yeah probably. But I think he would do better, and actually I could see him competing with a lot of top bantamweights like Cruz, Garbrandt, Moraes, and Lineker as well.



In terms of size.

Here's a photo of Kyoji in the current Bantamweight Grand Prix he's in
View attachment 318337

And here's him at his last two weigh ins at 135.

View attachment 318339

IMO he's too small for bantamweight even though he's been having a lot of success.

He winning by ko a lot more at 35 then 25.

 

[moon to me]

 

[Buffmeister]

What happened to Hiromasa? The guy made it to the Finals of TUF, had the best performance on the entire show that season.

And we haven't seen him fight in the UFC even once, they decided they rather sign a can who got cut from the UFC the first time around.

Him not getting signed was just like a big WTF?...for me.

It seems like just getting into a TUF finale is enough for the UFC to sign your ass...but not here...