Kyokushin/Muay Thai pros and cons

[shinkyoku]

Please someone correct me if I am wrong but I always thought one of the primary benefits of training and competing in karate is the emphasis on each strike landing with maximum force.

The ichigeki concept of "one hit one kill" was borrowed from kendo/swordmanship, where it makes more sense.
There are innumerable different rules used in karate competitions. In some focus and control is the goal, with too much force resulting in disqualification.
In some knockouts are the goal, and while maximum force is a good way to get there, feints and weaker "set up" punches have their place. And a well placed punch with decent power is better that a maximum power punch that is off target. The whole "its the punch you don't see..." and all that.

 

[dsdoubled]

The ichigeki concept of "one hit one kill" was borrowed from kendo/swordmanship, where it makes more sense.
There are innumerable different rules used in karate competitions. In some focus and control is the goal, with too much force resulting in disqualification.
In some knockouts are the goal, and while maximum force is a good way to get there, feints and weaker "set up" punches have their place. And a well placed punch with decent power is better that a maximum power punch that is off target. The whole "its the punch you don't see..." and all that.

I absolutely love how nowadays with the emergence of MMA, fighters can train in all striking or grappling arts and take from each one. As your post illustrates, there is so much one can gain from learning and competing in each art.

 

[Jimmy Jazz]

He looks like he does MS DOS alright.

This is gonna be me in 65 years.

thats interesting. reminded me of boxing. i wonder what style of karate that is?

 

[j123]

thats interesting. reminded me of boxing. i wonder what style of karate that is?

Senior citizen's karate

I'm undefeated against senior's btw. Esp. the cans that use walkers. I just kick the walker out, and they face plant because their stance is shit and they put 100% of their weight forward

I can't think of a senior I've fought that didn't end in KO within 5 seconds.

 

[Replay19]

Andy Hug vs Thai fighter

It seems like Kyokushin has potential, or is that potential just by Andy Hug himself?

 

[Hotora86]

thats interesting. reminded me of boxing. i wonder what style of karate that is?

One of the comments said:
Wado ryu style, http://www.wikf.com/, Professor Tatsuo Suzuki 8th Dan Hanshi, He has always taught even after serious illness.

http://www.wikf.com/tatsuo.php

 

[shinkyoku]

I absolutely love how nowadays with the emergence of MMA, fighters can train in all striking or grappling arts and take from each one. As your post illustrates, there is so much one can gain from learning and competing in each art.

Thats not really new. That was how it used to be long before MMA was even a glint in a promoters eye. Masters used to SEND their students to learn from other masters, and encourage them to blend the teachings.
Then, growing organizations (=big money for the leaders) resulted in school rivalry, which in turn encouraged isolationism which results in stagnation.

 

[dsdoubled]

Thats not really new. That was how it used to be long before MMA was even a glint in a promoters eye. Masters used to SEND their students to learn from other masters, and encourage them to blend the teachings.
Then, growing organizations (=big money for the leaders) resulted in school rivalry, which in turn encouraged isolationism which results in stagnation.

Care to expand on this? Was this a common practice in any particular region or with any particular martial art? Like I know nowadays you have some cross training between the US Olympic wrestling team and the US judo team. Or, many Bjj gyms bring in judoks or wrestlers to train takedowns. But back in the day what was this like?

 

[j123]

But back in the day what was this like?

"Bro I heard you opened a school in the forest. Give me your sign so I can smash it"

 

[AndyMaBobs]

Care to expand on this? Was this a common practice in any particular region or with any particular martial art? Like I know nowadays you have some cross training between the US Olympic wrestling team and the US judo team. Or, many Bjj gyms bring in judoks or wrestlers to train takedowns. But back in the day what was this like?

A good example would be Mas Oyama sending guys out to Thailand to see what they picked up and compete against the Thais.

There is another cool example again from Mas Oyama, that he was a black belt in judo under Kimura (considered by many to be the best judoka of all time).

 

[shinkyoku]

A good example would be Mas Oyama sending guys out to Thailand to see what they picked up and compete against the Thais.

There is another cool example again from Mas Oyama, that he was a black belt in judo under Kimura (considered by many to be the best judoka of all time).

He had also trained boxing (although briefly), trained Aikijutsu (a older more combative version of aikido), two styles of karate, and crosstrained in other styles &arts quite often. The oyama dojo that eventually grew into the kyokushin style, was in many ways a fighting dojo where many guys from many styles met to sparr and try stuff out.
When Kenji Kurosaki broke away from kyokushin to found the original Mejiro kickboxing gym (wich was a pioneer in the early japanese kickboxing scene in the 60-70ies, spawning several champions, including MT champions), it was as a result of a dispute between him and Oyama if they should try to raise talents from scratch "inhouse" -as kyokushin -or letting other do the grunt work and pick the best students from other schools and just add the finishing touch.

But what I was referring to was the old masters sending their students to train with other masters. For example, The founder of gojuryu was sent to china by his master on okinawa, to train kungfu. Many of the old masters studied under several of the previous generation of masters at the same time.
Early shotokan guys was sent to masters of other karate styles to gain insight into, and improve, their kata -because the masters of that style knew more! (Can anyone see that happen today?) This by the way included Gigo Funakoshi, son of Shotokans founder.
The early aikido organization actually had exchange program with, and sent students to, kodokan Judo to focus on bodythrows and newaza (not that there are any traces left). It was just common practice. People went anywhere they could to learn anything they could from whomever they could, to improve -and their teachers encouraged it.
The whole "Do not change! keep the style pure" crap would have been baffling to them. The whole shu-ha-ri (copy, adapt, break-away) concept of learning required the student to change what he had learned.

Even the worst cases of secretive styles was always more then happy to steal stuff from other styles. It was always a question of "learn from them without them learning from you".


Then organizations grew, and teaching martial arts became about the money involved, and the ego of the leaders....

 

[j123]

He had also trained boxing (although briefly), trained Aikijutsu (a older more combative version of aikido), two styles of karate, and crosstrained in other styles &arts quite often. The oyama dojo that eventually grew into the kyokushin style, was in many ways a fighting dojo where many guys from many styles met to sparr and try stuff out.
When Kenji Kurosaki broke away from kyokushin to found the original Mejiro kickboxing gym (wich was a pioneer in the early japanese kickboxing scene in the 60-70ies, spawning several champions, including MT champions), it was as a result of a dispute between him and Oyama if they should try to raise talents from scratch "inhouse" -as kyokushin -or letting other do the grunt work and pick the best students from other schools and just add the finishing touch.

But what I was referring to was the old masters sending their students to train with other masters. For example, The founder of gojuryu was sent to china by his master on okinawa, to train kungfu. Many of the old masters studied under several of the previous generation of masters at the same time.
Early shotokan guys was sent to masters of other karate styles to gain insight into, and improve, their kata -because the masters of that style knew more! (Can anyone see that happen today?) This by the way included Gigo Funakoshi, son of Shotokans founder.
The early aikido organization actually had exchange program with, and sent students to, kodokan Judo to focus on bodythrows and newaza (not that there are any traces left). It was just common practice. People went anywhere they could to learn anything they could from whomever they could, to improve -and their teachers encouraged it.
The whole "Do not change! keep the style pure" crap would have been baffling to them. The whole shu-ha-ri (copy, adapt, break-away) concept of learning required the student to change what he had learned.

Even the worst cases of secretive styles was always more then happy to steal stuff from other styles. It was always a question of "learn from them without them learning from you".


Then organizations grew, and teaching martial arts became about the money involved, and the ego of the leaders....

I'm thinking the reason this doesn't happen often anymore is due to money. Martial arts is getting into that realm where its possible to make financial gains (legally of course). IIRC the whole reason for boxing's old school rules of "don't talk to another trainer's fighter" was that if the fighter made it big, they'd give their cut to the coach, so they didn't want to lose a potential cash cow.
But back then the idea of profiting off fighting wasn't a priority

 

[Tkd10]

From my experience I think Muay Thai serves as a better foundation.

I enjoyed my time in Kyokushin, but the lack of head punches was a big problem for me when we would spar with kickboxers.

Not to mention your sternum won't be too pleased with the constant torso punches.

It's also easy to get comfortable in the dojo, top Kyokushin fighters have very different styles of fighting and footwork, but some casual practitioners get too comfortable with the close range kumite style and never really come out of that. Also although we were still taught to block, this style is not really the best at teaching a defensive style of fighting, most people would not even bother to block the low kicks on their shin, it's just expected to deal with the pain and dish out more. Where as to when I spar with MT guys, they always instinctively block even if they can handle the pain.

But it taught me a lot and was a good introduction to "combat" arts.

I also liked the occasional trance music for our warmup circuits on sparring nights.

It's just...the rule set is quite odd. I wish so badly the space helmet face punches with Judo takedown off shoot (kudo/daido juku) was more popular.

That in my opinion is what Kyokushin
should be.

Considering it is a modern style of karate, it just still feels too traditional at times. We hardly did kata, but spend a fair good amount of time on kihon.

I think the Kyokushin community needs to accept modernity and continue to evolve the style like Ashihara and Enshin.

I really like the Ashihara kata, it's basically kata but made out of fighting combinations, that to me is how kata should be done and i can see the purpose of kata.

 

[Azam]

I'm thinking the reason this doesn't happen often anymore is due to money. Martial arts is getting into that realm where its possible to make financial gains (legally of course). IIRC the whole reason for boxing's old school rules of "don't talk to another trainer's fighter" was that if the fighter made it big, they'd give their cut to the coach, so they didn't want to lose a potential cash cow.
But back then the idea of profiting off fighting wasn't a priority

Precisely. Just to add to @shinkyoku post and above.

Something that a lot of people rarely ever talk about with the old founders or martial arts masters is that many of them didn't teach for financial gain. Old karate masters like Anko Itosu, Chojun Miyagi etc didn't charge money for lessons. Many of them were already financially set and many early masters taught for free.

Early masters didn't accept payment for lessons but they often only accepted students that they thought were worth their time (i.e. showed dedication & patience) - usually to get instruction you'd need an introduction or someone to vouch for you. Students would initially start by doing many chores for their instructor after which lessons would be taught for free. The thinking behind it I feel was - you have to earn my instruction - do favours for me (chores) and I will do favours for you (teach you martial arts).

That changed though as Karate spread and instructors or potential students realised that they could make a living out of teaching. To be honest though - the financial compensation you receive for teaching martial arts is still pretty shitty in comparison to the average salary/job. Only very few gyms make decent money. You're more likely to make better money by opening a place dedicated to fitness.

That's the biggest reason why there was no hesitation in instructors back then encouraging students to cross train with other masters. There was no money or livelihood at stake. Back then those masters were 'real' teachers in every sense of the word. So it was extremely common for students to learn from multiple teachers/styles. Even Jigoro Kano learnt multiple styles and never had any real issues (backlash) from his teachers.

Nowadays though loyalty is stressed regardless of style in most gyms/dojos/schools and conveniently is emphasized by some as a part of budo or martial arts ethos (TMAs). The reason is obvious - retaining students & cash-flow into the gym. Cross training as a result has suffered. Even in MMA gyms - even though everything is now done in house you'd still have issues if you went to another gym to learn. It's not exclusive to MMA - it's the same with kyokushin, MT, boxing etc.

That's what money tends to do though - make you change your priorities.

Can you imagine if your Maths teacher had a tantrum because you learnt English from an English teacher?

Well that's what it's like in most martial arts gyms. Hence why I said I don't really consider most instructors 'real teachers.' Teachers do what's best for their students not what's best for themselves.

It's rare that you find a teacher in martial arts - they are a dime in a dozen but will always encourage you to grow either with them or jointly with someone else.

 

[Azam]

From my experience I think Muay Thai serves as a better foundation.

I enjoyed my time in Kyokushin, but the lack of head punches was a big problem for me when we would spar with kickboxers.

But it taught me a lot and was a good introduction to "combat" arts.

It's just...the rule set is quite odd. I wish so badly the space helmet face punches with Judo takedown off shoot (kudo/daido juku) was more popular.

That in my opinion is what Kyokushin should be.

I think the Kyokushin community needs to accept modernity and continue to evolve the style like Ashihara and Enshin.

I really like the Ashihara kata, it's basically kata but made out of fighting combinations, that to me is how kata should be done and i can see the purpose of kata.

I had the exact same issues as well. I think it's not an unusual progression for guys to start in Kyokushin or something similar and progress to something different.

I don't think Kyokushin should be like Kudo - in fact I hope it doesn't. Kudo is something that's open, non-restrictive (takes techniques from MT, Karate, Judo, BJJ etc), has an open cirriculum and more importantly devoid of any silly cult like behaviour like the osu osu osu after everything and the silly politics. If Kyokushin became anything like Kudo - I think it would take away from Kudo and ruin what it is a bit.

I do think though that Kyokushin does need to accept modernity and evolve. But that's for those that teach kyokushin to decide. While I do think the ruleset does more harm than good - it is a good bridge between safety & some degree of realism. You're not going to be open to brain trauma the way someone learning kickboxing or boxing might.

Kata is like that though outside of Kyokushin. JKA Shotokan, Uechi ryu, Okinawan Goju, Okinawan Shorin ryu etc - all teach kata/bunkai a hell of a lot better. You can include Enshin/Ashihara kata in that as well.

Kyokushin suffers in the kata/bunkai department imho because I think M.Oyama himself was clueless about most of it and I think that Kyokushin has evolved more into a sport where more time is devoted to competition/sparring. I think there are very few instructors that do teach it well - but I feel most of these have probably resort to looking outside of Kyokushin and look to styles like JKA & Okinawan Goju for answers to kata/bunkai.

I don't think it helps matters either that half of what you learn in Kyokushin you'll never apply in sparring.

 

[Tkd10]

I had the exact same issues as well. I think it's not an unusual progression for guys to start in Kyokushin or something similar and progress to something different.

I don't think Kyokushin should be like Kudo - in fact I hope it doesn't. Kudo is something that's open, non-restrictive (takes techniques from MT, Karate, Judo, BJJ etc), has an open cirriculum and more importantly devoid of any silly cult like behaviour like the osu osu osu after everything and the silly politics. If Kyokushin became anything like Kudo - I think it would take away from Kudo and ruin what it is a bit.

I do think though that Kyokushin does need to accept modernity and evolve. But that's for those that teach kyokushin to decide. While I do think the ruleset does more harm than good - it is a good bridge between safety & some degree of realism. You're not going to be open to brain trauma the way someone learning kickboxing or boxing might.

Kata is like that though outside of Kyokushin. JKA Shotokan, Uechi ryu, Okinawan Goju, Okinawan Shorin ryu etc - all teach kata/bunkai a hell of a lot better. You can include Enshin/Ashihara kata in that as well.

Kyokushin suffers in the kata/bunkai department imho because I think M.Oyama himself was clueless about most of it and I think that Kyokushin has evolved more into a sport where more time is devoted to competition/sparring. I think there are very few instructors that do teach it well - but I feel most of these have probably resort to looking outside of Kyokushin and look to styles like JKA & Okinawan Goju for answers to kata/bunkai.

I don't think it helps matters either that half of what you learn in Kyokushin you'll never apply in sparring.

That's true, a lot of kihon that we learn is not applicable in sparring.

I guess you're right in some sense, to keep Kyokushin separate from Kudo, but if so many Kyokushinkai want to spar under kickboxing or go pro in K-1 etc. The curriculum should have added training face punches on pads or lightly in sparring with helmets. I think the style would benefit greatly, or utilize Shinken Shobu more.

I don't like the brutal mindset of Kyokushin. In fact, even though in Muay Thai face punches are done, some coaches are very strict and make it very clear to go light unless you are a fighter or training for an up coming fight.

While there is no face punches in Kyokushin, some sensei's get carried away with the "tough" mindset. I've seen many times lack of control, head kicks to the jaw, broken ribs from knee kicks, accidental KO's that were just unexpected.

There are no face punches.....but then there are still head kicks...too busy punching the torso then you get a kick to the head, that unfortunately is how so many knockouts happen in a tournament. It's just a conflicting rule set.

I love Japanese culture, but the constant "Osu!" is kind of ridiculous. I came across an article of a high level Japanese Jiu Jitsu Sensei, which said the constant Osu is just too cult like, it should not feel like you're in the military. Even for a native Japanese, the culture of Kyokushin can be too rigid.

It's a cool style, I always get nostalgic when I remember my training, but I also remember why I decided to move on.

 

[spacetime]

Thats not really new. That was how it used to be long before MMA was even a glint in a promoters eye. Masters used to SEND their students to learn from other masters, and encourage them to blend the teachings.
Then, growing organizations (=big money for the leaders) resulted in school rivalry, which in turn encouraged isolationism which results in stagnation.

No, that's what Mas Oyama encouraged( crosstraining) . Most traditional martial artists however were hardcore purists before MMA..