Lloyd Irvin's students accused of brutal rape (Part 2)

[madgrappler]

I see KGB's point. There's no need for ad hominem's and cursing at one another.

I don't agree with him but I do get what he is driving at.

Can you explain it please?

 

[KGB256]

A bunch of people got convicted. Lloyd didn't. The reason given was that he couldn't get it up and complete the rape, not that he didn't think it was rape. I'll go with the jury on this one, they received more information that we have and they asked if there were other things they could find Lloyd guilty of. The only thing that came between Lloyd and a rape conviction was his dick (ironically).

Incorrect. All of the defendants said they thought it was consentual...pretty standard in a rape case. Had Lloyd penetrated her, it would not have mattered...his assumption of consent would not have been a valid defense.

The only assumption I'm making is that the jury had a better foundation of knowledge than you or I do.

The assumption I'm not making, and the one you are, is that the jury was wrong.

I can divide that into a load of smaller assumptions if you honestly feel that game is somehow the way to go here.

I made no statements or assumptions about the jury's decision. If he had been charged with attempted rape, I think he would have rightfully been convicted.

1) You assume that Gatlin was wrongly convicted by a jury.
2) You assume that Smith was either wrongly convicted by a jury, or that he had knowledge of what was going on that Irvin and Gatlin didn't.
3) You assume that Thompson was either wrongly convicted by a jury, or that he had knowledge of what was going on that Irvin and Gatlin didn't.

Incorrect on all 3. The men that penetrated her commited rape. Whether they knew it was rape or not doesn't matter.

We can further divide all of those into even smaller assumptions if needed. It's not honest work to just count the lines of bullshit one can make up and it sure doesn't have anything to do with Occam's razor. You act like this is a Cold Case (tm) that you're digging up because something wasn't right about the convictions and you have to start from scratch, but there is no reason to make that assumption.

I said nothing at all about the convictions being incorrect. Not sure where you got that idea.

If he was thinking it was clear cut rape, or just that they were taking advantage of this girl who didn't know what she had gotten herself into doesn't make a difference to me.

You remind me of a philosophy grad student I knew who honestly tried to start the whole "If a tree falls in the forest" discussion with me. It comes across as if you actually don't believe what you write, but are treating it as a pseudo-intellectual exercise of some sort.

I think they believed they were taking advantage of a naive young girl that was up for anything. That wasn't the reality.

And obviously the difference is between a man declaring he wanted to have sex and a man declaring he wanted to knowingly rape someone.

 

[Pizdek]

I dont want to read any more rape appologist nonsense... Im just blocking all of them. This two animals are going to do time... a long time hopefully... and LI .... I realy dont care. Never liked him... his way of running bussines.. his demeanor. When I was moving to DC area I asked my coach where to train and he recomended a good gym. When I asked him about LI he just said: Dont go there hes no good! ...... The Brazilian guy was right. If LI was guilty on technicality he is beeing punished now. If not... he is getting it because I dont like him.

 

[KGB256]

One of the things that make me think this is nothing but an experiment for KGB256 is that he takes all that abuse with a disconcerting virtual smile. Too thick skinned to be convincing in the role.

Don't give me too much credit for being thick skinned. I'm definitely not smiling. I don't appreciate when people attack me personally, but it goes with the territory. I'm doing my best to remain civil, because I understand this is an emotional issue for people.

 

[KJGould]

 

[Vitamin C]

I see KGB's point. There's no need for ad hominem's and cursing at one another.

I don't agree with him but I do get what he is driving at.

I tried this earlier. All I tried to say was to calm down the witch hunt vibe, speculations, and you know... death wishes and stuff, since it all makes it easier for the TLI guys to just disregard anything that is said.

I don't know how many times KGB has specifically stated that he thinks that Lloyd raped the girl and that he thinks it's disgusting, but that has largely been ignored.

It is impossible to hold a moderate stance here.

edit; Even still I feel the need to again, add a disclaimer to this post, wherein if you check my post history I have been one of the people strongly advocating against TLI in the debacle. I believe Lloyd E Irvin Jr to be the same as the one accused of gang rape and acquitted on a technicality which I think was a terrible misjustice. The fact that he was acquitted and Gatling later winning the appeal sickens me. I have been vocal about my dislike for the atmosphere created in the TLI fighter house, and I recall thinking after that first medal chasers episode that we would see something horrible come of it. Unfortunately I was not wrong.

 

[madgrappler]

I tried this earlier. All I tried to say was to calm down the witch hunt vibe, speculations, and you know... death wishes and stuff, since it all makes it easier for the TLI guys to just disregard anything that is said.

I don't know how many times KGB has specifically stated that he thinks that Lloyd raped the girl and that he thinks it's disgusting, but that has largely been ignored.

It is impossible to hold a moderate stance here.

So - if you are saying you think KGB is moderate or reasonable, or even sincere, then I just lost all respect for you.

 

[deadlizard]

This is so true.

 

[Breadcutter]

 

[Breadcutter]

Does Jordan Burton post here? Just curious how he feels the the girl that was brutally raped carries some of the fault. Interesting..

 

[Vitamin C]

So - if you are saying you think KGB is moderate or reasonable, or even sincere, then I just lost all respect for you.

So because he believes that there is possibly a grain of truth to Lloyd's testimony that he thought it was a consensual gang bang, but still holds the firm opinion that Lloyd did rape the girl, and is a scum bag for doing so regardless of the situation, he is somehow in the same camp as those pigs like Marcos?
He hasn't ever once argued that it WASN'T rape. He has said multiple times that it WAS.

And I'm not even saying that I have the same god damn view. You people are in full out combat mode. It's not about agreeing or supporting, it's about accurately understanding a person's position. KGB has never once claimed the girl was in any way responsible, wasn't raped, thinks the guys are all innocent because they thought it was consensual. He has made it clear that he knows that even if they did think it was consensual, that it is still rape.

 

[KGB256]

According to Occam's razor, we should select the hypothesis that makes the fewest assumptions while also accounting for all the available evidence.

Cutting this short because your post seems to indicate that you've uncovered quite a bit more infomration about the case than I have seen. As of Friday, I had read every article that had been provided. If additional information on testimony has been uncovered, I would genuinely appreciate the link so I can see for myself.

 

[madgrappler]

So because he believes that there is possibly a grain of truth to Lloyd's testimony that he thought it was a consensual gang bang, but still holds the firm opinion that Lloyd did rape the girl, and is a scum bag for doing so regardless of the situation, he is somehow in the same camp as those pigs like Marcos?
He hasn't ever once argued that it WASN'T rape. He has said multiple times that it WAS.

No one is arguing equivalence. Marcos and Shultz are going to prison. That hasn't been under discussion for a long time.

What is under discussion now: Lloyd Irvin is, best case, a scumbag for what happened in his own rape trial. He is a double scumbag for his response when outed. Several of his affiliates and blackbelts have been outed as scumbags for their attempts to defend him. The TLI mentatlity has been exposed as a cult of personality that is dangerous, abusive, and probably attracts scumbags in general.

One would have to be very weak minded to be spun by such an fool as KGB.

 

[Vitamin C]

No one is arguing equivalence. Marcos and Shultz are going to prison. That hasn't been under discussion for a long time.

What is under discussion now: Lloyd Irvin is, best case, a scumbag for what happened in his own rape trial. He is a double scumbag for his response when outed. Several of his affiliates and blackbelts have been outed as scumbags for their attempts to defend him. The TLI mentatlity has been exposed as a cult of personality that is dangerous, abusive, and probably attracts scumbags in general.

One would have to be very weak minded to be spun by such an fool as KGB.

Marcos isn't going anywhere dude. This is what I mean. People need to stop and breathe before posting in this thread.

 

[madgrappler]

Marcos isn't going anywhere dude. This is what I mean. People need to stop and breathe before posting in this thread.

Did I say Marcos is going anywhere?

 

[Vitamin C]

Did I say Marcos is going anywhere?

You just said Marcos is going to prison.

 

[madgrappler]

You just said Marcos is going to prison.

I meant Maldo. The rapist with shultz not avellan. Typo, I think pretty obvious what I meant.

 

[100%Jiu-Jitsu]

Cutting this short because your post seems to indicate that you've uncovered quite a bit more infomration about the case than I have seen. As of Friday, I had read every article that had been provided. If additional information on testimony has been uncovered, I would genuinely appreciate the link so I can see for myself.

No problem, I'm happy to track them down for you. I realize that because these threads have moved so fast, the posts with the actual news articles have gotten buried really quickly.

To make things more efficient, could you tell me if there were any particular details you hadn't heard about before?

 

[anaconda]

I tried this earlier. All I tried to say was to calm down the witch hunt vibe, speculations, and you know... death wishes and stuff, since it all makes it easier for the TLI guys to just disregard anything that is said.

I don't know how many times KGB has specifically stated that he thinks that Lloyd raped the girl and that he thinks it's disgusting, but that has largely been ignored.

It is impossible to hold a moderate stance here.

edit; Even still I feel the need to again, add a disclaimer to this post, wherein if you check my post history I have been one of the people strongly advocating against TLI in the debacle. I believe Lloyd E Irvin Jr to be the same as the one accused of gang rape and acquitted on a technicality which I think was a terrible misjustice. The fact that he was acquitted and Gatling later winning the appeal sickens me. I have been vocal about my dislike for the atmosphere created in the TLI fighter house, and I recall thinking after that first medal chasers episode that we would see something horrible come of it. Unfortunately I was not wrong.

It is getting pretty ridiculous. It is an emotional issue, I get it. But railing on people for having a different opinion is useless.

I know I've done it before and believe me, no one gets anywhere.

 

[Vitamin C]

I meant Maldo. The rapist with shultz not avellan. Typo, I think pretty obvious what I meant.

And it had nothing to do with what I said. Mistakes are being made. I never once referenced Maldonado or Schultz. I was specifically speaking about the Lloyd cover up situation, and you misconstrued at least that part of my post. Many mistakes have been made regarding what other people think in general, and that is why I am advocating taking our teeth out of each other's necks, recognizing that everyone here thinks very lowly of TLI, and redirect the attention where it deserves to be. Getting Lloyd Irvin to talk.