Marines Reissuing the 1911

[Roaming East]

Then why did some of the top dudes in the mil stick with them for so long?


Answer: Ergonomics + unmatched trigger + high accuracy potential.


You are biased as hell against 1911's. I blame Kimbers...

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Finally watched the 1911 challenge vid because I'm off my iphone and on the puter.


I actually agree with Pincus. Sub-compact 1911's are crap. Everything in the feeding cycle has to be perfect for them to run.

The full-sized 5" 1911's have the best reliability. He isn't even challenging FULL sized 1911's.

Kimber didnt turn me against 1911's, nothing has. i like the pistol. im just not in the camp that its the best pistol in the world for anything. On one hand, im not a .45 fiend. i think a good 9mm load is just dandy and since .45 is basically all the 1911 has going for it over most designs, that leans me against it as an active duty arm.

As far as anecdotal evidence of Delta bad-asses running around with them, i havent seen ANYBODY in country using them other than some General Officers walking around the FOB during dog and pony shows with Colt Commanders in shoulder slings. If you got anything other than anecdotal evidence that its in widespread use amongst the operator community im all ears. I've seen more Sigs than anything else as far as non beretta arms go.

 

[00 Buck]

Kimber didnt turn me against 1911's, nothing has. i like the pistol. im just not in the camp that its the best pistol in the world for anything. On one hand, im not a .45 fiend. i think a good 9mm load is just dandy and since .45 is basically all the 1911 has going for it over most designs, that leans me against it as an active duty arm.

As far as anecdotal evidence of Delta bad-asses running around with them, i havent seen ANYBODY in country using them other than some General Officers walking around the FOB during dog and pony shows with Colt Commanders in shoulder slings. If you got anything other than anecdotal evidence that its in widespread use amongst the operator community im all ears. I've seen more Sigs than anything else as far as non beretta arms go.

That's the thing though. I'm not deluded enough to think that they are in widespread use in the SOF community at all. Last I heard they also carried lots of glocks in 9mm and .40 s&w.

Not sure if they carried gen 4 glocks. Even glock has been stumbling in quality. Problems with extractors, recoil spring assemlies, ejectors, etc.. in the newer ones.


Does that change anything for me and my high quality 1911's and older gen 3 glocks?

NOPE!

 

[Gallachobar]

Or just shoot a couple hundred rounds through it with plenty of lube. You should be doing this regularly anyway.

Well I wasn't being completely serious because it's expensive, but that type of coating is on a completely different level functionally than wet lubricants.

Even in your quote he mentions better feeding due to better mechanical repeatability.

I'm talking about he said in volume 2 page 85:

A gross over-generalization. Just because most of the military's 1911's are worn out rattle traps doesn't mean they should be. The few top guys that do carry 1911's, carry high quality ones that start with a tight frame-slide fit. Basically tuned bullseye guns with some tactical features.

The key phrase here being "greater or lesser extent". We're talking about guns manufactured based on the original ordnance specs here, it's not the case that the 1911s the military had back in the day suffered problems from any of these issues, at least those held within what were considered optimal dimensions for military use. For the conditions they were designed for, the old military pistols were superior to modern close-tolerance designs. To bring Kuhnhausen into this again:

About Ml911 optimum performance slide dimensions- The several dimension and/or tolerance
changes proposed in this section are not a presumptive attempt to redesign the M1911 slide. What is
being proposed is a whole lot simpler- namely that several of the most critical dimensions, shown above
and on the following pages, should be restandardized (nearly all within ordnance specifications) and the
rest held at approx, mid. ordnance spec, in order to provide a best, or optimum grade, M1911 competition
pistol slide.

In pistols assembled on this standard, vertical dimensional tolerances are reduced to about mid
ordnance specification. Vertical and horizontal frame, slide, and component clearances are also
reduced; frame pin hole/pin clearances are minimized, and sears and hammers are precision fit based
on actual frame pin hole locations. Barrel link up/or cam up, barrel link down, barrel link down stop
position and barrel/slide clearance in the linked down position (aka link-down timing), are also
optimized.

Note: The foregoing is not suggested as being corrective of supposed design deficiencies in ordnance
specification U. S. military pistols- which follows, essentially, because there are none- but is discussed
to provide insight into the shift in direction toward a closer toleranced pistol capable of greater
reliability and accuracy given a non military combat scenario. The only shortcomings (and there are
two) associated with Ml911 type pistols built to optimum performance standards, is that (1) all
components must be of the best quality and carefully hand fit; and (2) close tolerance pistols make
lousy military service pistols.

All of that is from page 66.

It's not rocket science. If you're gun is exposed to large amounts of sand, mud, etc. , some of it is going to end up on the inside. The closer the slide-frame tolerances are, the less of this the gun will be able to handle.

An internal extractor is fine if the shooter knows how to adjust his own. It's not that hard.

I've adjusted extractors before, that's not why I like externals. When engineered properly, they are a superior mechanism that can be replaced without the need for gunsmith attention. They perform better when dirty, as well as not needing to be tuned for optimal function. The majority of IE's are made poorly and unfinished, getting rid of them eliminates a huge barrier to off-the shelf performance.

 

[00 Buck]

Even with some uber coating i would still lube generously. Not going to break a good habit.

Tighter guns should be less reliable in theory, but this doesnt always hold true IRL. Again, when the top guys DO carry the 1911, they basically carry tightly fitted bullseye guns with fixed tactical sights for the most part.

Shooting at the volume that they do and lubing generously would fix any problems with tightness real quick.

Edit: and i agree that external extractors are better, but not at the expense of quality of the other parts. Kimber externals come to mind...

One does not simply external extractor into mordor. Not without proper engineering anyway.

 

[Jory]

Honestly, if I were to buy a 1911, it would probably be strictly a range pistol. I have a lot more experience with the 9mm cartridge than .45, and would probably keep that as my home defense pistol.

Im not looking for uber-reliablity for this reason, so I am hoping to spend a little less than a Kimber or Colt if possible. The RIAs look very attractive @ $450, but seem too good to be true. Although it doesnt need to be ultra "reliable" per se, I want something that still shoots and has the feel of a 1911. My local shop has some nice basic springfield 1911s at $800, still less than the colts and kimbers, so I am wondering what I am gaining over the RIAs and what I am losing to the Colts/Kimbers/Sigs.

Took the RIA back to the range today. Last time I was using cheap ammo and I think that made the difference.
http://www.sherdog.net/forums/73249001-post89.html

 

[WorldofWarcraft]

I have a few 1911s, but I've always gotten crap for saying what I feel about them, especially since most gun aficionados I know are older folk who stand by their 1911s and won't have it any other way. Nostalgia plays too big of a role.

They are beautiful pistols, but I just do not think they're practical in this day and age. They still can get the job done, but they're just not practical as defensive firearms. There's better choices to be had for much less money. Double stacked polymer wonders are the way to go. 1911s are great competition pistols, though.

 

[judoyellow1**]

I have a few 1911s, but I've always gotten crap for saying what I feel about them, especially since most gun aficionados I know are older folk who stand by their 1911s and won't have it any other way. Nostalgia plays too big of a role.

They are beautiful pistols, but I just do not think they're practical in this day and age. They still can get the job done, but they're just not practical as defensive firearms. There's better choices to be had for much less money. Double stacked polymer wonders are the way to go. 1911s are great competition pistols, though.

This. The love for 1911 is great but there is a reason most PD's a d militaries don't use them. The main reason I see is just simple round capacity, 8 rounds is no good. Also remember I'm talking about 1911 not 2011's. When you have glocks and Hk's and s&w's that carry much more rounds it's no wonder people gravitated away from the 1911's like they did revolvers.

 

[Lug's Spear]

This. The love for 1911 is great but there is a reason most PD's a d militaries don't use them. The main reason I see is just simple round capacity, 8 rounds is no good. Also remember I'm talking about 1911 not 2011's. When you have glocks and Hk's and s&w's that carry much more rounds it's no wonder people gravitated away from the 1911's like they did revolvers.

Speaking of 2011's, there is also the Para Ordnance 14-45 that looks pretty appealing. I have heard a lot of good things about that company as well.

http://www.para-usa.com/new/product_pistol.php?id=89

http://www.para-usa.com/new/product_pistol.php?id=92

 

[D Train]

I know several .gov organizations all use Sigs. I'm a little surprised the military doesn't as well. Would just seem to make sense.

 

[SMEAC]

The military does have sigs, it also have various incantations of Beretta 9's, glocks, and various 1911's

 

[D Train]

The military does have sigs, it also have various incantations of Beretta 9's, glocks, and various 1911's

Why not standardize?

 

[Jory]

Why not standardize?

Sig was too expensive. The Sig P226 and the Beretta 92 were the finalists for the M9. Beretta could deliver for cheaper.

Also, from what I've read, the Sig P250 has had issues with quality control for the military mass production models. I don't think Sig is set up to deliver the kinds of numbers the military would require.

It'd be like Porche trying to compete with Ford for a police cruiser contract.

 

[SMEAC]

Why not standardize?

Not everyone is equal.

Police departments have different weapons for different units. You expect the military to have one size fits all weapons

 

[D Train]

Not everyone is equal.

Police departments have different weapons for different units. You expect the military to have one size fits all weapons

Not necessarily, but it looks like they've just a hodge podge of hand guns. I do they could come close to standardizing though.

 

[Roaming East]

Not necessarily, but it looks like they've just a hodge podge of hand guns. I do they could come close to standardizing though.

Sounds like what the Glock guys are always saying. That the military should just switch to Glock standard, since there is no fundamental difference mechanically from a 9mm, 40, or .45 glock. The guys who want a .45 can have it without requiring an entirely new pistol smithing course of training or supply train with vendor support.

 

[WorldofWarcraft]

Here's to add more fuel to the fire:

 

[SMEAC]

If that is James Yeager, I put no stock into that coward's views.

 

[The Mentalist]

Here's to add more fuel to the fire:

I can't take anyone seriously that wears shirts like that. He seems knowledgeable but I don't know any different to offer an opinion of my own.

 

[WorldofWarcraft]

The guy's a poser, but he makes some good points. Also, I'd like to add that I bet most of his students that used 1911s during training haven't broken in their 1911s yet. I haven't read the manuals of my 1911s, but I hear breaking in 1911 in general take around 600 rounds.

1911s tend to have this effect on their owners that they treat them like safe queens, thus never really breaking them in.

 

[Roaming East]

offtopic but listening to his credentials, what makes him a poser?