Social May i ask: what is the argument for reparations in 2019?

[PainIsLIfe]

Lol but we know the wrongs didn't stop 100× years ago and I gave an example of one.

Now you're just lying

Redlining affected more than blacks and wasnt a federal program. The same goes for Jim Crow laws.

But you've been convinced that giving 1 oppressed group reparation will soothe your white guilt and make the US 1 big harmonious family - not going to happen

 

[PainIsLIfe]

Fine by me. If they were done wrong, make them right.

And then make sure we hold ourselves accountable going forward and stop excusing the bullshit.

So everyone gets q check?

 

[evansusmc2]

You do realize that conflating bad behavior and traits with skin color is the definition of racism, right?

Well god damn it, it’s a trend that blacks happily uphold and think its normal to act like that with impunity. If the general majority of blacks didn’t want to be seen like this they would have changed it a long time ago.

 

[all caps]

Well god damn it, it’s a trend that blacks happily uphold and think its normal to act like that with impunity

This is not true.

 

[evansusmc2]

Shooting squirrels and beer bottles is child's play compared to how poor folk spend their time in places like Chicago, Indianapolis, or Baltimore.

Just saying.

Indianapolis native checking in. I can vouch for this guy’s comment. The poor white folks mainly stay out of trouble and focus on keeping he squirrel population down.

 

[evansusmc2]

I think it's pretty cut and dry we had a debt we didn't pay. What happens when you don't pay your debt?.

This is the 2nd time you’ve wedged in the word “we”. You can “we we we” your ass all the way home with that nonsense.

The vast majority of today’s Americans are like me. For instance my great grandfather immigrated legally in 1935 from Germany once he saw the Nazi crap starting to rise. That’s where my lineage comes from. And this is true for other Americans who had ancestors here that only date back to the times when Irish, Italians, Hungarians, Polish, etc etc came here.

 

[El anciano]

African-Americans have long suffered from the affects of slavery and at a later date, the equally evil and discriminatory Jim Crow laws.

Institutional racism in housing, education and health has helped to create and perpetuate an underclass of people.

Enslaved Africans literally built this country, but far too many of their ancestors are still suffering from discrimination.

How anyone can think these people are NOT entitled to reparations shows how clearly racist most non-people of colour still are

 

[evansusmc2]

And would Americans of today who ancestors where not in America during slavery have to pay?

Actually last year, when a thread like this surfaced, a bunch of black board members said yes. Mainly by using a bunch of goal post shifting justification. Also a few of them justified the future killing of white people in America once blacks become the majority around 2050.

 

[vanillaisis]

African-Americans have long suffered from the affects of slavery and at a later date, the equally evil and discriminatory Jim Crow laws.

Institutional racism in housing, education and health has helped to create and perpetuate an underclass of people.

Enslaved Africans literally built this country, but far too many of their ancestors are still suffering from discrimination.

How anyone can think these people are NOT entitled to reparations shows how clearly racist most non-people of colour still are

Injustices and genocides and slavery etc has existed forever. This type of shit should be settled in an International Court where British have to pay Irish and American blacks. It's a slippery slope because if it happens then other countries are going to use the argument to help them win more cases. Mexico taking Spain to court. China takes Japan to court. You see.

It's divisive. If one race gets free money based on their skin then other people of all other races will feel played. It's not good for race relations.

 

[PolishHeadlock2]

Redlining affected more than blacks and wasnt a federal program. The same goes for Jim Crow laws.

But you've been convinced that giving 1 oppressed group reparation will soothe your white guilt and make the US 1 big harmonious family - not going to happen

Another lie.

I've said repeatedly that if the government does or did harm to people and can quantify the damage and rectify they should.

It's a pretty simple and just concept.

 

[brackis1]

Just politicians using the black man like chess pieces. Business as usual.

You realize the right wing talks about reparations far more than anyone else as a method of scaring their base, right?

 

[brackis1]

Injustices and genocides and slavery etc has existed forever. This type of shit should be settled in an International Court where British have to pay Irish and American blacks. It's a slippery slope because if it happens then other countries are going to use the argument to help them win more cases. Mexico taking Spain to court. China takes Japan to court. You see.

It's divisive. If one race gets free money based on their skin then other people of all other races will feel played. It's not good for race relations.

lol yeah real slippery slope if countries actually used their courts to determine when some people cause economic harm to others, with the courts enforced a ruling....
Oh wait that's literally the entire fucking point of what civil court and you have no idea what you're talking about but wanted to justify why you should be allowed to ignore recently local exploitation using some bullshit about others doing it too.
And yes, countries take each other to court all the time.

Should we not prosecute war crimes because it becomes a slippery slope too?
Or medical malpractice when someone gets horribly injured by a negligent doctor because of a "slippery slope" where doctors get sued?

Jesus christ read a book or learn about the law or something lol

 

[SmilinDesperado]

My father belongs to The Muskogee Creek Nation and I don’t accept any federal funds out of principle. If you’re wondering why I stated the above it’s because I want you to have an idea of the type of person I am and a little bit of my background. Our world, not just the US has an unbelievably violent and unfair history. The US is no different, we have been involved in quite a bit but nothing compares to the land grabs and slaughter of NA groups and slavery.

There isn’t a fair way to gather and appropriate funds, you know this. Let’s say they somehow figured out a way that was fair, who gets compensation? How are they verified or qualified? Add to the fact that the ones who oppressed and the victims of oppression are no longer here today. The idea is in good faith, but it’s unrealistic.

I’ll propose something that hasn’t been stated yet and could easily have a program created to make amends. Any victim(s) of Jim Crow Laws, or direct family member(s) born before 1985 should receive compensation. I’d stand behind that 100%.

Thanks for the background info, it does help to know in conversations like this, because it sheds a little light on where you're coming from, and how I can better articulate my point. For the record, I'm black and japanese.
I hear what you're saying, and I get it. On principle, you want to be your own man, and make your own way, despite whatever bullshit may or may not have been put in front of you. That's well and good, and i respect that. But the issue of reparations is not about principles.

We need to define 'reparations'. Because it isn't what people are making it out to be.
Reparations: the making of amends for a wrong one has done, by paying money to or otherwise helping those who have been wronged.

Reparations aren't 'handouts', it isn't charity, or a pity fund, it is a debt being repaid for a wrong done. It is not something to "help black people get their shit together", it is an admittance of a wrongdoing, and then making amends for that wrongdoing.

I 100% agree that bad things happen in the world, and we can't just live in the past and go back in history on who didd what to whom. But with slavery in America? No, this isn't ancient history that isn't trackable, or hasn't had a lasting impact.
And i would say that reparations, and this whole argument with "black on black crime" and "the black community", the argument isn't about slavery, it's about the LEGACY of slavery. It is about what slavery did to a community. It is about what slavery did to the relationship between the government and that people.

You mentioned your Native American background. What about the Sioux tribe in South Dakota? The American government decimated the Native Americans, they then made a deal with the Sioux that they could keep 'The black hills', gold was later discovered in those hills, so USA took it back. So the Sioux get fucked. They are regulated to live on poor ass lands. Alcoholism increases, no economic opportunities, and they have a lower life expectancy rate compared to all other Americans. And that is from the legacy of how the US government treated them. Problem don't just go away because you want them to. You have to actually do something to make that happen. How does "just get over it" help anybody?
We aren't a poor country. We have the money to make amends, and the argument against righting a wrong is....?

As far as how to make reparations, I don't know how much of the thread you've read, but I have addressed this. I don't think individual cash reparations are appropriate, or helpful.
The US government has tried to pay the Sioux tribes for The Black Hills, (i think there's like a billion dollars in some trust fund for them) but the Siouix have refused the money, because they didn't sell the land to America. It was taken. If they had taken the money, they could get about $10,000 each, and that wouldn't do anything to fix the root problem. It's not just about money, it's about creating opportunities to thrive.
At least you're on board with the Jim Crow part of it.

 

[SmilinDesperado]

So when is it enough? If you give reparations and the cummunity is still poor do we still blame slavery and jim crow?

FTR- it seems these larger pockets of poverty tend to be in places like Baltimore, Chicago, Oakland, St. Louis, Detroit - places were slavery and jim crow werent predominate

That's an odd way to think of this situation. As if...you're doing some sort of favor to black people with reparations.
I said this in an earlier post, but reparations are not charity or hand outs, reparations are payment for a wrong done. They are something that is owed. There's nothing "entitled" about it. It is an admittance of wrong doing, and a payment for that wrong doing.
It isn't a cure-all. But you can't begin to fix a wrong, if you won't admit that you're wrong, and then do something to fix it.
You can't say "I was wrong...but if I did something to help fix that wrong..well, would you actually get better?" how does that make sense? If you did something wrong, you pay for it. And then it's up to those people to accept it and move on, and it's up to you to continue to try and foster that relatioinship. You don't just say "get over it".

The slaves arent alive to pay reparations to and we arent talking about 4 yrs ago - slavery ended 150 yrs ago.

You're making the same mistake too many people make with this argument.
This is not just about slavery, it is about the legacy of slavery. Slavery made Jim Crow, Jim Crow forced blacks to live in poor, ghettos, blacks living in poor ghettos increased crime, drugs, and gangs, crime, drugs and gangs, made "The war on drugs", "The war on drugs" targets and puts blacks in jail, black men in jail leads to broken families. These aren't isolated issues.
They all stem from the same shit. You can't just ignore history as if has no effect on the present.
To ignore this is being willfully ignorant.
Affirmative action doesn't fix this. This isn't a "cultural problem". There are plenty of blacks that are doing well when they have been given the opportunity to do so. People in places like the Baltimore and Chicago hoods lack opportunity and choices.

 

[SmilinDesperado]

Injustices and genocides and slavery etc has existed forever. This type of shit should be settled in an International Court where British have to pay Irish and American blacks. It's a slippery slope because if it happens then other countries are going to use the argument to help them win more cases. Mexico taking Spain to court. China takes Japan to court. You see.

It's divisive. If one race gets free money based on their skin then other people of all other races will feel played. It's not good for race relations.

lol It's dvisive that a country wants some sort of acountability from the country that fucked them? What?
This slippery slope argument is just too much.
We're not talking about some random, little know incident here, or Roman slave gladiators before there was a real Europe, we're talking about slavery in America. It has a very specific history, and you can very easily trace the damage it's done to black people of today. It didn't begin and end at slavery.

Mexico and Spain is an entirely different issue.
Japan does pay China. Or at least they did, they actually just stopped a year or two ago. Japan has paid Korea multiple times throughout the years. Japan has given a lot of money and development assistance to countries that it had formely colonized.
Germany still gives money, items, and discounts to Israel.
We paid reparations to Japanese Americans, and tried to give reparations to the Sioux tribe in the 80's.
This isn't as complicated a thing as it's being made out to be.

We need to look at these cases, case by case.
What is divisive is to ignore your neighbor's greivances. You have to at the bare minimum hear them out when we're talking about things like slavery, theft, rape, and murder.

 

[chardog]

White privilege.

correction, white guilt

without a large portion of white people agreeing to it, there are no legs.

 

[PainIsLIfe]

Another lie.

I've said repeatedly that if the government does or did harm to people and can quantify the damage and rectify they should.

It's a pretty simple and just concept.

Point to 1 single lie that I've posted.

Redlining was not a federal program. Jim Crow laws were state laws. And the people wronged arent here to make whole.

 

[freakroor]

Well god damn it, it’s a trend that blacks happily uphold and think its normal to act like that with impunity. If the general majority of blacks didn’t want to be seen like this they would have changed it a long time ago.

Yeah, like you personally know the general majority of blacks. Right....

maybe its time you go fuck your sister, you redneck racist cunt

 

[G-19]

Thanks for the background info, it does help to know in conversations like this, because it sheds a little light on where you're coming from, and how I can better articulate my point. For the record, I'm black and japanese.
I hear what you're saying, and I get it. On principle, you want to be your own man, and make your own way, despite whatever bullshit may or may not have been put in front of you. That's well and good, and i respect that. But the issue of reparations is not about principles.

We need to define 'reparations'. Because it isn't what people are making it out to be.
Reparations: the making of amends for a wrong one has done, by paying money to or otherwise helping those who have been wronged.

Reparations aren't 'handouts', it isn't charity, or a pity fund, it is a debt being repaid for a wrong done. It is not something to "help black people get their shit together", it is an admittance of a wrongdoing, and then making amends for that wrongdoing.

I 100% agree that bad things happen in the world, and we can't just live in the past and go back in history on who didd what to whom. But with slavery in America? No, this isn't ancient history that isn't trackable, or hasn't had a lasting impact.
And i would say that reparations, and this whole argument with "black on black crime" and "the black community", the argument isn't about slavery, it's about the LEGACY of slavery. It is about what slavery did to a community. It is about what slavery did to the relationship between the government and that people.

You mentioned your Native American background. What about the Sioux tribe in South Dakota? The American government decimated the Native Americans, they then made a deal with the Sioux that they could keep 'The black hills', gold was later discovered in those hills, so USA took it back. So the Sioux get fucked. They are regulated to live on poor ass lands. Alcoholism increases, no economic opportunities, and they have a lower life expectancy rate compared to all other Americans. And that is from the legacy of how the US government treated them. Problem don't just go away because you want them to. You have to actually do something to make that happen. How does "just get over it" help anybody?
We aren't a poor country. We have the money to make amends, and the argument against righting a wrong is....?

As far as how to make reparations, I don't know how much of the thread you've read, but I have addressed this. I don't think individual cash reparations are appropriate, or helpful.
The US government has tried to pay the Sioux tribes for The Black Hills, (i think there's like a billion dollars in some trust fund for them) but the Siouix have refused the money, because they didn't sell the land to America. It was taken. If they had taken the money, they could get about $10,000 each, and that wouldn't do anything to fix the root problem. It's not just about money, it's about creating opportunities to thrive.
At least you're on board with the Jim Crow part of it.

I wouldn’t want anyone thinking the way I do, or using me as any kind of moral compass or role model. I’m just one of those sick individuals who loves challenges and creating their own opportunity. I wouldn’t recommend that kind of mindset, especially for people trying to pull themselves out of poverty into a better life or anyone trying to feed their family.

I don’t disagree with you. I don’t think reparations are charity, but I would like to hear more about your idea of investing in infrastructure. The thing that doesn’t sit well with me on that is, if we can invest into institutions and other infrastructure to make amends, why can’t we do it in general for all?

Very rarely do I play the Native American card, so don’t get me started. I don’t see my dad much, but every time I see him he brings shit up like that. I went to a few pow wows with him and brought my son moreso as a fun experience for him to remember. Anyway, he brings up his distrust in the government because of all the promises they reneged on that brutally fucked over the Tribes they claimed to be making amends to. I’ve seen the alcoholism in person plenty, not just that but the abandonment of family as well. It’s disgusting and as someone who served in the military, and then as a federal government employee, and now as a state government employee it hurts knowing our government not only doesn’t care, but will go out of their way to fuck you if they think you walked away with a better deal than them.

Let me ask you this, if we went ahead with a monster project to pump the Black communities up with economic relief packages, revamped school institutions, created valuable job opportunities how would it effect the current culture? Additionally, do you think the idea of institutional racism in current America would die with these efforts?

 

[vanillaisis]

lol yeah real slippery slope if countries actually used their courts to determine when some people cause economic harm to others, with the courts enforced a ruling....
Oh wait that's literally the entire fucking point of what civil court and you have no idea what you're talking about but wanted to justify why you should be allowed to ignore recently local exploitation using some bullshit about others doing it too.
And yes, countries take each other to court all the time.

Should we not prosecute war crimes because it becomes a slippery slope too?
Or medical malpractice when someone gets horribly injured by a negligent doctor because of a "slippery slope" where doctors get sued?

Jesus christ read a book or learn about the law or something lol

I guess you missed the part where I said International court. Also missed the part where I said British should have to pay Irish and American blacks. I'm acknowledging an injustice was done. I would actually benefit from this if the Irish were involved as well since they were forcefully taken as slaves and their lands genocided. If you can't understand how reparations are divisive I don't know how to explain it to you. I'm sure the Mexicans, Indians, Chinese, Whites, and all other races in America will feel some type of way by the government giving one single race reparations.