Official Judo Thread X: Triple Weave Edition
- Thread starter Zankou
- Start date
Hi guys, here's a question:
Do you know of any setup for a forward throw (uchimata, harai, seoi nage, etc.) that pretty much all beginners will fall for? Something that you could teach, say, orange belts? Perhaps some movement and first attack - with some important details, that will make almost all beginners practically walk into easily?
In BJJ, I have such a move. You hold them in side mount with your head on the mat, opposide side. Almost all beginners will very soon move their far arm on the wrong side of your head so you can kata-gatame them by moving over to mount and then to side mount on the other side.
Do you know of any setup for a forward throw (uchimata, harai, seoi nage, etc.) that pretty much all beginners will fall for? Something that you could teach, say, orange belts? Perhaps some movement and first attack - with some important details, that will make almost all beginners practically walk into easily?
In BJJ, I have such a move. You hold them in side mount with your head on the mat, opposide side. Almost all beginners will very soon move their far arm on the wrong side of your head so you can kata-gatame them by moving over to mount and then to side mount on the other side.
- Joined
- Mar 9, 2013
- Messages
- 20,197
- Reaction score
- 2
Nice, I had a date with a qt Vietnamese on Saturday night myself B )
- Joined
- Jun 21, 2010
- Messages
- 18,578
- Reaction score
- 0
The secret to beating beginners easily is...get good at the basics. Learning tricks specifically to beat bad players is a horrible waste of time. If you want to work on a setup for a forward throw that works on beginners, just get really good at the basic setups for whatever your favorite forward throw is. In my case, that's uchi mata, and my setup is to secure a sleeve and high collar grip, step back while dropping my tsurite elbow hard to break posture, and then take a small step back and to my hikite side to get uke to square up before throwing the uchi mata. Great thing about this setup is that it works on everyone if I can execute it correctly because it's mechanically sound and doesn't rely on any tricks, it relies on solid kuzushi.
- Joined
- Jun 21, 2010
- Messages
- 18,578
- Reaction score
- 0
Not a big fan of the peat, old Obans are my favs. So smooth.
Actually I consider throwing beginners a challenging problem. It's not like in BJJ where you are still a white belt but can reasonably stomp all newcomers. The fact is that any idiot can put up a defense by stiff arming and bending over. So it will take a while before you should be expected to throw all beginners. Maybe by brown belt?
That said, the quick short cut would be to take positions where the stiff arm problem goes away, without having the beginner understand much Judo. So you are looking at the high grip ("noob cannon"), o goshi, underhooks, single lapel ippon seoi, etc.
Every hear of Hiza Guruma, De Ashi Barai, Okuri Ashi Barai ? Work like magic...
Well, Uchi mata et al were mentioned by the OP. Hiza Guruma is a lot easier to do than Uchi Mata. I'll grant you the other two, although DAB is easier than Uchi Mata by a long shot.
All of yours are easier mechanically, but they are far more difficult conceptually (by this I mean moment of opportunity). So not only will tori miss opportunities, they are also infrequent and tori will not be able to create them.
Whereas the others you can just grab and go like a dummy.
Differences in perspectives I suppose. It's been longer for you than it has for me, since the beginner stage!
P.S. I'm not ashamed to say that I don't really use okuri ashi barai, though I would like to...
- Joined
- Jun 22, 2003
- Messages
- 3,119
- Reaction score
- 518
LOL!
No, on Tuesday we sodomize little puppies.
- Joined
- Mar 7, 2016
- Messages
- 8
- Reaction score
- 0
Hi everyone, anyone got any tips on getting hip contact against a larger opponent
- Joined
- Jun 21, 2010
- Messages
- 18,578
- Reaction score
- 0
Not sure I understand the question. You're having trouble closing distance against a larger person? Are you getting stiff armed? What is preventing you from getting your hips in?
- Joined
- Mar 7, 2016
- Messages
- 8
- Reaction score
- 0
Im getting stiff armed and being being 5 7 I have to close distance and having trouble
- Joined
- Jun 21, 2010
- Messages
- 18,578
- Reaction score
- 0
So your problem is dealing with the stiff arm. That's a more general problem than not being able to get your hips in. Other than just saying 'get better at grip fighting' (which is the real answer), the main ways to deal with the stiff arm are movement, power grips, and ashi waza.
1. Movement: a stiff arm is much harder to maintain if you're circling and using the angles you create to try and close distance. It's very hard for me to describe this verbally, but basically put pressure on the stiff arm at the elbow as you move towards that side in a circle and work to collapse it.
2. Power grips: if you can get a strong collar, belt, or over the back grip right off the bat it's very hard for uke to stiff arm you away. Get the grip and get your head close to his head/chest and he won't have an opening to create the stiff arm.
3. Ashi waza: it's really hard to maintain a stiff arm through foot sweep attacks. Sasae is especially useful for causing a small unbalancing that will allow you break down the stiff arm.
There's not really an easy answer to stiff arms other than grip fighting better and learning how to create openings where it's hard for uke to maintain the stiff arm and taking advantages of those times to close distance.
- Joined
- Mar 7, 2016
- Messages
- 8
- Reaction score
- 0
Thank you very much for the advice thats what im looking for (Y)
It might help if you say what throws you are trying because the solution may be different for each. In general it's a fact of life that the hips will be harder to reach, not only because of stiff arms but bending over / sprawling.
I'm working on this problem myself, and thought of some solutions. Previously I trained for my weight class, was an osoto / uchimata player, and found myself very limited in open weight. So here are some ideas I am working on:
1. You need to get good at pulling down and up, to prevent the sprawl. By this I mean action reaction tsuri komi pulls. Especially if uke is a bend over type. Previously I preferred pushing uke away before entering for uchimata.
2. Consider acquiring some throws that don't require hip contact, like seoi or tai otoshi. The more ways of entering you have, the more uke has to open up to defend.
3. Step by step throw. Force uke's head down, chop his feet away, then finally tip him over. This is simply recognizing the difference in mass, and that you can't just blast in.
I think the stiff arm issue is a whole other topic, but you are seeing more trouble with tall players because you can't use your lower half the close the distance.
Grab and go like a dummy, yeah, that's the ticket...not...
I think the post from uchi mata regarding getting good at basics is the best one so far. The OP (jonpall, hey, he used to post a lot over at UG, and what, Judo Forum when it was a real thing) original question is fairly non-sensical in any case.
If you are going to learn Judo, you have to just learn Judo (or BJJ, or Muy Thai, et al). Wanting some sort of non-fail setup for a forward throw for orange belts (in what, Judo?) to use in BJJ is odd to say the least. Why would you even want to do a forward throw in BJJ, for the most part ?
I teach beginners all the time, for the last 20+ years. I can teach a beginner to do DAB in one session, I use it as an intro throw and ukemi pair. Same for HG, and I'm talking adults or teens, not little kids, which are another kettle of fish, although it depends on the exact age of the kid and how solid his/her ABCS are to begin with.
Not create opportunity for HG ??? LOL, that's truly funny. I guess nobody can pull uke in a circle. If we are talking orange belts in Judo, they can do HG circling to either side all day long in my classes at least, same for DAB...it's a requirement for orange belt as a matter of fact.
How long have you been doing (presumably) Judo ? Because if you are a beginner or novice, there is a lot more to throwing a larger opponent than getting hip contact. or anybody for that matter...
