Realistic knife defence against resistance. Combat sports based.

[KnifeDefenceIsrael]

***I came to the conclusion that the techniques require improvements / completely different mindset at some points. Will be updated. Just maybe take it as separate ideas which you can improve.

Hey. I'm from Israel and we have been suffering from a lot of knife terror attacks lately.
I thought about the subject deeply and watched and tried almost every video with more than 1000 views and in almost all of the languages. then I combined my former knowledge (Former Israeli national judo) and my hobby (Watching combat sports) to produce this video. it contains examples from real fights and combat sports for the majority of the techniques, and a demonstration against resistance.

The video was approved by the official page of the Russian combat sambo federation (They uploaded it to their page separately as well).




Standing Kimura 40 minutes mostly MMA HIGHLIGHT (To see the possible Set ups/ counters/ counters to the counters options in real life) thread:
https://forums.sherdog.com/threads/...cks-40-minutes-mostly-mma-highlights.4285279/

There are few "holes" in the video. They will be addressed at the "Part 2- Useful Ideas from around the internet" video (I put in the comments of the video and in the description of the video stuff which I find useful. I'll just cut the useful parts for the "Part 2" video, plus add some things of my own).

******An important point is dealing with the possibility of a second weapon draw with the opponent's free arm.

***1:35 How to reduce the opponent's chance to draw another weapon with his free arm during an Arm Bar.


*** arm trap techniques during Kimura to prevent another weapon draw: 1) 2:10
2) 3:05

 

[DoctorTaco]

This is a really cool project, you’ve clearly done your research. I’ll try and make time to watch the whole video, in the mean time what were some of your biggest take always? What surprised you? What did you learn?

 

[KnifeDefenceIsrael]

The No 1 thing: against a weaker and less technical opponent the chances are not so low as people love to say. I personally think that I (187 pounds, 6'4, so I'm bigger than the average Israeli) have more than 50% percent chance to kill the average non trained, non physically built terrorist. It makes knife defense especially relevant to people with an experience in martial arts and some physical training (Like many on Sherog).

Basically every stabbing terror attack is made of full power repeated stabs from above with an Ice pick grip or from beneath with a regular grip. The most reliable way to finish the opponent is with a Kimura or an Arm bar on the ground (it's More successful than trying to get the knife out of the opponent's hand, Though I showed some of these techniques as well). To get there, you should know few basic blocks to block/evade the knife and then to get a Russia tie/ Two on one (against a stab from beneath), which has some relatively reliable throws which translate nicely into an arm bar. It's interesting that it's easier to get it against a knife wielding opponent than against a grappler. It's because you know which arm he is going to straighten (You basically anticipate his first move compared to grappling) and you go for it with 2 arms. Plus, because the opponent can't grab with the knife holding arm, It's easier to take him down/ Break the grip during the Arm bar, Etc. Of course the disadvantage is that every small motion of the opponent's arm might kill you, but it's still easier grappling wise compared to a grappling match.

Plus, you should be familiar with the "Arm pit grip" takeover (in the video) from which it's easy to get a Kimura and Sumi Gaeshi (Sacrifice throw from judo) with it.

these are the most successful (Personally for me) techniques. I showed them at the introduction against 100% resistance and recommended to understand and practice them before anything else. The rest of the video explains them in depth + builds upon them (different scenarios) + some more additional useful stuff.

 

[RabbitPunch36]

The No 1 thing: against a weaker and less technical opponent the chances are not so low as people love to say. I personally think that I (187 pounds, 6'4, so I'm bigger than the average Israeli) have more than 50% percent chance to kill the average non trained, non physically built terrorist. It makes knife defense especially relevant to people with an experience in martial arts and some physical training (Like many on Sherog).

Basically every stabbing terror attack is made of full power repeated stabs from above with an Ice pick grip or from beneath with a regular grip. The most reliable way to finish the opponent is with a Kimura or an Arm bar on the ground (it's More successful than trying to get the knife out of the opponent's hand, Though I showed some of these techniques as well). To get there, you should know few basic blocks to block/evade the knife and then to get a Russia tie/ Two on one (against a stab from beneath), which has some relatively reliable throws which translate nicely into an arm bar. It's interesting that it's easier to get it against a knife wielding opponent than against a grappler. It's because you know which arm he is going to straighten (You basically anticipate his first move compared to grappling) and you go for it with 2 arms. Plus, because the opponent can't grab with the knife holding arm, It's easier to take him down/ Break the grip during the Arm bar, Etc. Of course the disadvantage is that every small motion of the opponent's arm might kill you, but it's still easier grappling wise compared to a grappling match.

Plus, you should be familiar with the "Arm pit grip" takeover (in the video) from which it's easy to get a Kimura and Sumi Gaeshi (Sacrifice throw from judo) with it.

these are the most successful (Personally for me) techniques. I showed them at the introduction against 100% resistance and recommended to understand and practice them before anything else. The rest of the video explains them in depth + builds upon them (different scenarios) + some more additional useful stuff.

I skimmed the youtube video and the techniques look very realistic and useful but do you think the average Israeli citizen woukd even dedicate enough time to learn and practice the techniques? Most people want bs magic solutions that give them a sense of false confidence.

Not trying to insult your efforts, I'm just wondering how do you plan to market this to average people. How frequent are knife attacks anyway in Israel? Do they happen in every city?

 

[SandisLL]

Well, I think that project is interesting.

However my oponion is that knife defense standard situations against attack methods usually taught for special service ppl and military is one thing.
Areas targeted by taught ppl are well known and casual attack methods too. These ofc also are most effective do disable opponent asap.


While some attackers might be lesser predictable.

Some might do vs opponent dirty kickboxing while still does have this knife and not at all use just hand with knife.

Some maybe will have target just to hurt you not to kill at all.
Or draw blood. Then cuts are used not stabbing.

Then there is one relatively simple methods how to attemot outsmart an opponent. Btw this is done also by ppl who doesn't want in reality to stab you.
Then he might imitate possible stabbing attempt and instead to attack with kinfe kick, punch you with other side hand, leg.

Another kind of tricks used by skilled knifefighters are two....
One is : he does have knife in one hand and quickly knife is fluying and appears in his other hand.
Btw widely practicised in prisons trick. Ofc this requires a lot of hours to train. Prisoners does have time, a lot...

Next....
Not all ppl will show knife before attack.
If potential attacker is dressed suitable for such trick : when you see guy with empty hands and he quickly lower his hand and .....vuala knife is in his hand...
The trick is that knife is between his arm and clothing. Before to start attack.
Widely used by hardcore criminals method....


Another attack method is " to play an idiot ".
Preparator is pretending that he is not dangerous. Might keep hands behind back and in low position.
When he get enough close distance to attack he might stab.
Then usually target will be liver or splenum.
This was method well known in USSR prisons.

2nd.....very big thing ...
Ppl might have 2 knifes.
Btw it is relatively good defense vs someone threating to stab you and when still is in enough long distance.
To fight with someone armed with 2 knifes is nightmare....

___
Overall good luck and bear in mind one biggest mistake that might happen vs someone experienced ( I mean real life exp not even in gym ):::
People taught about def against knife attack usually assume that attacker usually will contentrate only on knife in hand.
In majority of cases it is correct assumption.
While he does have 2 hands, legs, knees, head that might be used for headbutts ....not just one hand with knife.

Judo ofc is cool thing, especially if you are taught in old style.
Sport competition rules made judo softer and softer during maybe 80 years in row.
The same with TMAs...

While ofc Judo does have real bonus that it is like wrestling or boxing or MT or sambo... It is full contanct stuff.

Not some non contact death drills.

 

[KnifeDefenceIsrael]

I skimmed the youtube video and the techniques look very realistic and useful but do you think the average Israeli citizen woukd even dedicate enough time to learn and practice the techniques? Most people want bs magic solutions that give them a sense of false confidence.

Not trying to insult your efforts, I'm just wondering how do you plan to market this to average people. How frequent are knife attacks anyway in Israel? Do they happen in every city?

Hey. Yes they are common and can happen everywhere. The statistical chances of dying from a terror attack are very low, but it has a psychological effect which is the real aim of terror (as a kid I experienced suicide bombings on a weekly basis so I know it well). For example, I study in Jerusalem (more attacks than average), and during waves of stabbings, my mother calls me and tells me not to wander around etc and she is extremely worried. Therefore, the ability of being able to do something which has a chance to work- can bring a little bit of psychological relief to many people even if they will never use it.

walking around with pepper spray is extremely common. It's not extremely effective against terrorist. Even after getting shot by a firearm they stand up and continue to try to stab in many cases (if it was possible for the average civilian to get a pistol he would do it. But it's hard. except for specific cases).

In the introduction I explain what are the most important things to understand and practice after viewing the video. I changed the description of the introduction on the timeline thanks to your comment =) these major techniques can be taught at a relatively short period of time (against a non trained non athletic attacker). Plus,In general, many things in the video are great for general self defense as well. For example- the Arm bar and the Kimura on which I concentrate. So it's not a waste of time to practice them.

I'm not insulted at all. Your question is extremely legit and I think about it as well. I have a problem when trying to post it in generic, non martial arts Israeli groups. Many people laugh at me etc and write that I'm a clown. People without experience can't discern between a legit technique and a bad one. For them it's all the same.

The majority of the Israeli population goes to the military. Even office workers do some generic "self defence" bullshit lessons.
Plus, many Israelis do some self defence/martial arts during their lifetime. Many people are interested in knife defense. I hope that if more soldiers/ instructors will see it and take something from it, especially the basic techniques which I recommend and which can be taught in a short period of time- it will eventually spread to wider circles and improve the common knife defence knowledge. If it becomes a common knowledge, I think that many will play with it during their army service/ high school, and will get to a point where they will have a chance of implementing it against a non trained non athletic average attacker.

In addition, I think that it can be helpful for policemen, soldiers and guards. For them it is just psychological. For example, I think that knowing some legit techniques will increase their psychological security when shooting attackers from a face to face range- as they have a potential "plan b/last resort".

 

[SandisLL]

Pepper spray ofc isn't so effective as it had been suppposed.
IMHO it does have also too delayed effect starting moment.


I didn't had used pepper spray vs humans....
while had been taught for example if I think that I will need to use it...to place between clothing and arm...
This reduces time you need before after decision you will attempt to start use it. Time is killer.

Also pepper spray does have delayed effect IMHO.
Once I had mistake and missed pepper spray with deso...
I was surprised how long time it took before it started to work on me.
Effective stuff ofc but doesn't imho applies enogugh immediate effect....

While when on me had been attempted to use pepper spray, I just did automatic stuff: shelled up and kicked guy.

Ofc one from most idiotic things is to attempt threat an opponent by keeping pepper spray in extended arm.

Pepper spray should be used immediately and better if attacker will not see this.

Cos even if he will be surprised abd get spray in eyes, attacker still might deliver for example 2-3 punches and 2-3 kicks in row.

While pepper spray is really strong tool, maximal effect it might reach later than 3 seconds after had been sprayed in eyes....

 

[KnifeDefenceIsrael]

Pepper spray ofc isn't so effective as it had been suppposed.
IMHO it does have also too delayed effect starting moment.


I didn't had used pepper spray vs humans....
while had been taught for example if I think that I will need to use it...to place between clothing and arm...
This reduces time you need before after decision you will attempt to start use it. Time is killer.

Also pepper spray does have delayed effect IMHO.
Once I had mistake and missed pepper spray with deso...
I was surprised how long time it took before it started to work on me.
Effective stuff ofc but doesn't imho applies enogugh immediate effect....

While when on me had been attempted to use pepper spray, I just did automatic stuff: shelled up and kicked guy.

Ofc one from most idiotic things is to attempt threat an opponent by keeping pepper spray in extended arm.

Pepper spray should be used immediately and better if attacker will not see this.

Cos even if he will be surprised abd get spray in eyes, attacker still might deliver for example 2-3 punches and 2-3 kicks in row.

While pepper spray is really strong tool, maximal effect it might reach later than 3 seconds after had been sprayed in eyes....

Hey. I didn't understand you.
I wrote in the comment above you that Pepper spray, which can be carried legally in Israel, isn't very effective against terrorists, and that Often terrorists stand up and continue stabbing even after getting shot by a firearm (They think that they will end up in paradise with 70 virgins). But pepper spray is a tool that can give you few seconds as you wrote above to maybe run away/ let your kids to run away and maybe save themselves while you engage the terrorist afterwards.

I think that maybe against a hesitant attacker who is not a terrorist- pepper spray might be more useful.

Plus, In Israel at least, there is a law which sets a limit on the spray's strength. I've heard about people, and I know nobody like that, who have extremely extremely strong sprays which are way above the limit, and which are supposedly relatively effective.

 

[DoctorTaco]

Hey. I didn't understand you

none of us understand him either

 

[j123]

Hey. I didn't understand you.
I wrote in the comment above you that Pepper spray, which can be carried legally in Israel, isn't very effective against terrorists, and that Often terrorists stand up and continue stabbing even after getting shot by a firearm (They think that they will end up in paradise with 70 virgins). But pepper spray is a tool that can give you few seconds as you wrote above to maybe run away/ let your kids to run away and maybe save themselves while you engage the terrorist afterwards.

I think that maybe against a hesitant attacker who is not a terrorist- pepper spray might be more useful.

Plus, In Israel at least, there is a law which sets a limit on the spray's strength. I've heard about people, and I know nobody like that, who have extremely extremely strong sprays which are way above the limit, and which are supposedly relatively effective.

I think what he's saying is:

he agrees with your statement that pepper spray isn't the non-lethal be-all-end-all tool for self-defense.

He's used it against animals but not humans; When someone used it on him, he was surprised the delay it had on him. I'm guessing he expected that as soon as he got tagged, he would've been incapacitated, but looks like the delay that affected him was a bit long where he was able to still mount an offense; If it were a very committed guy who might be high off PCP, that delay is a lifetime.

long story short, he agrees with you.

 

[KnifeDefenceIsrael]

I think what he's saying is:

he agrees with your statement that pepper spray isnt a non-lethal be all end all tool for self-defense

he's used it against animals but not humans; When someone used it on him, he was surprised of the delay it had on him. Guessing he expected as soon as he got tagged, he'd be incapacitated, but looks like the delay that affected him was a bit long where he was able to still mount an offense; If it were a very committed guy who might be high off PCP, that delay is a lifetime.

long story short, he agrees with you.

Oh thanks you!!!!!!!!
"Pepper spray ofc isn't so effective as it had been suppposed."
this sentence confused me. I thought that he meant that i supposed that pepper spray is effective. My mistake, I read it the opposite way. Now everything makes a complete sense. Thanks =)

 

[TheMaster]

The No 1 thing: against a weaker and less technical opponent the chances are not so low as people love to say. I personally think that I (187 pounds, 6'4, so I'm bigger than the average Israeli) have more than 50% percent chance to kill the average non trained, non physically built terrorist. It makes knife defense especially relevant to people with an experience in martial arts and some physical training (Like many on Sherog).

This is a good project but I think you need to be careful throwing around estimates like that. There are a lot of variables, if you are wearing thick clothing for example your odds are much better to do a disabling strike while gripping the knife arm then progress to a disarm but saying "above 50% chance" is not a sensible figure to have in mind.

 

[KnifeDefenceIsrael]

This is a good project but I think you need to be careful throwing around estimates like that. There are a lot of variables, if you are wearing thick clothing for example your odds are much better to do a disabling strike while gripping the knife arm then progress to a disarm but saying "above 50% chance" is not a sensible figure to have in mind.

Mention that I wrote Against a weaker and non-trained opponent.
Against a trained opponent, on the same level as me for example, even if weaker by 5% percent for example, the chances are closer to 0. But I really do think that against the average (Physically average, means by that weaker than me and physically smaller) non trained non athletic opponent I'll have more than 50% percent chance of staying alive. Just an estimate from training with people of different sizes.
People who are experienced in martial arts completely destroy your chances. But most of the terrorists are not exactly cage fighters. Like 99% percent of them don't know what an arm bar is.

 

[Dexter]

Hey. I'm from Israel and we have been suffering from a lot of knife terror attacks lately.
I thought about the subject deeply and watched almost every video with more than 1000 views and in almost all of the languages. then I combined my former knowledge (Former Israeli national judo youth champ) and my hobby (watching mma fights) to produce this video. it contains examples from real fights and combat sports for the majority of the techniques, and a demonstration against 100% resistance.

I'm interested: why did you choose exact this type of dummy knife? From my small experience joking around the knives, wooden tantos gave the best result: your partner throws at you full speed/power while he’s not afraid to hurt you that badly as the real knife would.

 

[SandisLL]

People with different sizes in knifefight?

I agree that size matters damn a lot in combat sport. Especially !in wresltling or judo.

While for da tech streetZ and with knifes...

I suggest you to do one kind of thing: gave your opponent rubber piece with marking marker attached.
And allow him to attack you with any methods, including to kick, wrestle, punch etc...

After this session do with some 20× other ppl...
See marks, feel kicks, punches.

_____

In a lot of criminal cases were court trials cos smaller and otherwise inferiour ppl had killed large size opponents and in better shape than these killers were.

Ppl underestimate that sppeed and to outsmart opponent is more valuable aspect than power or size.

Cos they owerestimate physical power some specimen needs to kill or seriously wound someone with knife.

It is lesser power than needed for a power jab vs hobbyist in boxing gym.

Otherwise weren't cases when for example some 159 lbs psycho female had killed a 185 lber male in good shape etc...

Knife and items like hammer, bottle and other stuff to hit ppl etc... ofc aren't handguns.
Still they are huge size difference effect negotiators.

Majority of vicitms death cases in household type kife usage ( when it is some conflict in flat, home, apartment ) where these ppl are in....usually are done by untrained ppl ...

Btw some untrained psychos are using not the best attack methods in order kill with one attempt.

Multiple fast hysteric cuts without knife weaving might be deadly stuff etc.

From one point easier is to defend against trained opponent who had been taught to do maybe 6-9 most effective kife attack methods...

Rather than fast psycho who will attempt to do fast weird stuff.

__

It is in some kind like with thing when you are teaching defense against attack with baseball bat.

Ofc most effective thing how to use bat is to hit head.

While some attacker might opt to go with fake move for legs, then damage hands and after this maybe will attack head.

There might be two reasons: he maybe want just to damage an opponent to get him to piss off.
Or apply gradual damage tactic.

In the same pro boxing are ppl who does have style to accumulate gradual damage and often are getting an opponent till stoppage with this method despite does have 1 punch KO power....


For combat sport I ofc agree that 5% in size, reach and power matters a lot.

A lot more than on the street.
Cos trainers for this purpose are trainers to study an opponent and use each possible advantage his student does have vs an opponent.

Big stuff is that athletes are fighting with previous notice and it isn't 0,5-1-10 seconds timeframe.


Ofc it will be easier to deal with guy in the pub who will tell : let's go out , we need to talk or throw insults for minute in row.

___
Terrorists are very dangerous cos they might not do this.

They might pretend to be casual ppl and stab ppl from behind.
Pretend to be causal maybe even prayers... and after yelling one phrase to activate IED.
Or shell some object with RPG or ATGM and before this will not tell anything and do all the best not to rise suspicions.

 

[KnifeDefenceIsrael]

Why did you choose exact this type of dummy knife? From my small experience joking around the knives, wooden tantos gave the best result: your partner throws at you full speed/power while he’s not afraid to hurt you that badly as the real knife would.

Hey brother! First of all thanks for the footage!!! I've added it to the description of my video and to the comments. it can be seen there, how he winner finishes the realistic knife fight by a basic throw and basic ground striking which I shown in the video.

That's because they don't sell it in the store near my house, just the rubber one =) So I didn't even have a chance to think about it. It looks though that it can do damage. I would not use it as the default tool for 100% realistic training. Maybe sometimes when you want to make it a bit more realistic.

 

[Dexter]

Hey brother! First of all thanks for the footage!!! I've added it to the description of my video and to the comments. it can be seen there, how he winner finishes the realistic knife fight by a basic throw and basic ground striking which I shown in the video.

That's because they don't sell it in the store near my house, just the rubber one =) So I didn't even have a chance to think about it. It looks though that it can do damage. I would not use it as the default tool for 100% realistic training. Maybe sometimes when you want to make it a bit more realistic.

IMHO, the ability to make damage IS the point of the wooden one - your partner won't just ignore the pain part like he would with the rubber variant. The steel knife, even dulled, is too extreme, and the rubber is too unrealistic because the partner won't see it as a threat during the drills.

 

[SandisLL]

Well, in modern life videos and phones with cameras are casual thing.

While 20+ years earlier it wasnt.

Rubber knife might be used as tool of proof.
Mock in marker and traces on sparring partners clothing and body will be " painted " easily.
While if to punch, grapple and kick and wrestle still is allowed sense is....

Ofc I had even saw full contact comp with normal ppl while rules were idiotic: scored were only stabs with not sharp but steel knife only in chest or front of torso.
Kicks, punches not allowed, don't touch neck and face....


I will not post video for some reasons: guys were normal and these rules were enforced by sponsor....
Therefore unrealistic for real life scenario.
While it wasn't promoted as SD training or ad. Just stuff for fun under certain rules where only thing allowed is to attempt stab ( not cut anything ) in chest and front of torso.
Therefore boring ....

 

[SandisLL]

If the question is why steel knife had been allowed: it wasn't sharpened and guys had some light kevlar vests.

 

[KnifeDefenceIsrael]

IMHO, the ability to make damage IS the point of the wooden one - your partner won't just ignore the pain part like he would with the rubber variant. The steel knife, even dulled, is too extreme, and the rubber is too unrealistic because the partner won't see it as a threat during the drills.

But would you go to the face 100% with a wooden one on a regular basis? The most common stabs in terror attacks in Israel are stabs with Ice pick grip to the head area. That's why I even wore a helmet- to protect my eyes. I agree with you that on the one hand the defender is less afraid of the rubber knife, but on the other hand, the attacker, especially if the defender is using a helmet, is not afraid of going 100% for real to the head time after time during training. That way it's more realistic from the point of view of training the real full power dynamics.

But, I agree with you that such wooden knives make it more realistic from some other aspects. Thanks to you and your messages- When I'll have time, I hope during the summer, when I'll make some more realistic footage, I'll use the wooden knife as well. Plus, you talked about a metal one, I'll check this one as well, maybe I'll show some rounds with it but just to the body. I'll try to put some money aside (A student >< That's why I don't want to make an entire video of realistic footage until the summer vacation against people who are stronger than me. In the summer I'll have time to recover if shit happens) and get the shock (electric) one as well. Each of them will give a little bit different perspective, which I guess is important because we can't use real knives.

Your messages are very very useful! Thanks.