RICKSON GRACIE (The FUTURE of Jiu-Jitsu, ENDORSES Ryron & Rener's Curriculum, Gracie University)

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JoelThomas said:
You think the level of intensity at which you roll with strikes in the gym--no doubt with gloves, on mats, with friends--is in any way preparing you to be tackled onto concrete by a guy on bath salts? Thinking that your mind is prepared for self-defense by practicing Gracie Combatives is like thinking you're ready for the front lines after a few rounds of paintball.
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It's very hard to mentally prepare for such things other than experience. However physical preparation does help. At least if you are still conscious after the initial shock you have a plan. Not having trained for it is the worst of all.
 
deadlizard said:
Bro, don't you get it? What you're describing is MMA. It's not a true form of SD.

SD is specific for an environment where you need to defend yourself. It's not even closely related to BJJ, MT, MMA, or any MA you can think of. There are rules in all those "sports" you describe. We train to neutralize bro!

But we can't spar. When you spar, you have "rules". It takes away from the essence of true self defense. Don't fucking water down my art bro.

EDIT: by the way, if I get into a real fight with Rafa, I would totally GnP him to death. His years of training is worthless against my SD techniques. But I can't spar against him. He has to really try to rob me in order for my techniques to work.
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What are you talking about?

They're saying you SHOULD spar.

And Rafa is one of hte best BJJers to have lived in all probability. He's hardly a useful example. None of us will ever reach his skills. And since we're using stupidly extreme examples....I wonder what would happen if he was in a fight with Mike Tyson in his prime. You think Rafa would grapplefuck him or piss his pants and get KTFOd?

I don't think GJJ is the last word in street violence. It's pretty good for challenge fights but is lacking in other areas. There are plenty of situations where ground fighting is a terrible idea. Restricting yourself for BJJ rather than striking isn't always going to be the optimal strategy. The lack of mental training in most schools is a huge hole for unexpected violence too. But then what is perfect? Only Krav Maga appears to attempt to cover all the bases and the prevailing view is that it fails. I see no problem at all in promoting the Combatives system or something similar that covers the distance management, takedowns, punch-aware escapes and so on as a base for BJJ that is then built on with BJJ vs BJJ training (which is inherently a sport). What is the problem with that?

Also if you don't even train, how can you even have an opinion on this?
 
Balto said:
I've never understood the focus on teaching BJJers special grappling only strategies to clinch with strikers.

I've found by far the easiest way to clinch with a striker is just to throw some strikes back. I trained striking for many years before I even got into BJJ. Clinches happen all the time naturally. They are not hard to get into at all. They are actually much harder to avoid after a decent combination than they are to get into.

It's not like it takes some superlative striking level to gain this ability. A couple of months of training is all it takes to get the basic ability to force clinches without being knocked out immediately on your first attempt to close distance.

By far the best complement to "street" BJJ I've ever found is a little bit of boxing or MT. Yet I always see rather elaborate ways being taught to clinch with a striker without actually striking yourself. Just keep your hands up, chin down, throw a few punches yourself, and the clinch comes naturally. Definitely seems like the easiest way to me.
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you start to throw punches with a bigger stronger dude and you risk yourself to get ktfo... I do agree though that MT or bxing is great for getting to the clinch, but we are not talking about crosstraining, If you do MT and BJJ you are doing mma, which obviously is the best you can do in terms of fighting.
 
BJJ_Rage said:
you start to throw punches with a bigger stronger dude and you risk yourself to get ktfo... I do agree though that MT or bxing is great for getting to the clinch, but we are not talking about crosstraining, If you do MT and BJJ you are doing mma, which obviously is the best you can do in terms of fighting.
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The risk of getting knocked out is no greater than anything else I've seen. Yes, anytime you are fighting someone throwing bombs, you run a risk of getting caught. Not much you can do about that. Refusing to throw anything back yourself does not make you more protected against it. If anything, it makes it easier for the other dude to just tee off with impunity because aren't making him pay for winding up big. Normally you can just throw faster punches into the openings made to interrupt and discourage wild haymakers.

I guess I don't understand the whole point of avoiding crosstraining? Why, exactly? I thought we wanted to do the best we can to protect ourselves? Why not take the easiest and most effective routes to do so?

I have a Karate black belt too. There are dudes in Karate who don't want to learn BJJ for grappling. They'd rather go through old katas and try to discover the hidden grappling techniques within them. I guess that's better than no grappling at all, but why the hell would they do that when we already have something like BJJ that's way easier, better, and more effective?
 
Was at Pride GP 2000 said:
So you think about training but never physically train unless you are assulted? Seriously I'm interested in what you do.
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That's correct. Thus is the secret of my SD techniques. It's so top secret, I can only show it when I'm really being assaulted.
 
Codger said:
What are you talking about?

Also if you don't even train, how can you even have an opinion on this?
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Ever heard of LARPing? You can't prove that I train or don't train. In addition, we will never meet in real life.

Even if we do, if you issue a challenge to me, I will call the cops. Because I'm more civilized than you are.

So how we'll be talking about techniques is hypotheticals (if you do this, I will do this, etc etc). Which was my original point about what happened to Kung Fu. Pretty soon, BJJ as we know it will just be based on theories, Kata, with a touch of modern dance.
 
deadlizard said:
Ever heard of LARPing? You can't prove that I train or don't train. In addition, we will never meet in real life.
Wu

Even if we do, if you issue a challenge to me, I will call the cops. Because I'm more civilized than you are.

So how we'll be talking about techniques is hypotheticals (if you do this, I will do this, etc etc). Which was my original point about what happened to Kung Fu. Pretty soon, BJJ as we know it will just be based on theories, Kata, with a touch of modern dance.
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Errrrr......

.....what?
 
Balto said:
The risk of getting knocked out is no greater than anything else I've seen. Yes, anytime you are fighting someone throwing bombs, you run a risk of getting caught. Not much you can do about that. Refusing to throw anything back yourself does not make you more protected against it. If anything, it makes it easier for the other dude to just tee off with impunity because aren't making him pay for winding up big. Normally you can just throw faster punches into the openings made to interrupt and discourage wild haymakers.

I guess I don't understand the whole point of avoiding crosstraining? Why, exactly? I thought we wanted to do the best we can to protect ourselves? Why not take the easiest and most effective routes to do so?

I have a Karate black belt too. There are dudes in Karate who don't want to learn BJJ for grappling. They'd rather go through old katas and try to discover the hidden grappling techniques within them. I guess that's better than no grappling at all, but why the hell would they do that when we already have something like BJJ that's way easier, better, and more effective?
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No one says you should not throw anything, you throw something to distract and then shoot for the clinch, Gracie's always threw something just not something aimed to ko someone out.

There's people who doesn't enjoy striking classes, or do not have the time to crosstrain, this should not mean you shouldn't Learn tactics to get the fight where you wanted to be.

If you are standing for longer than you need to in order to clinch, then you are running a higher risk on getting ko. IMO gc show a very simple way to do it.
 
BJJ_Rage said:
No one says you should not throw anything, you throw something to distract and then shoot for the clinch, Gracie's always threw something just not something aimed to ko someone out.

There's people who doesn't enjoy striking classes, or do not have the time to crosstrain, this should not mean you shouldn't Learn tactics to get the fight where you wanted to be.

If you are standing for longer than you need to in order to clinch, then you are running a higher risk on getting ko. IMO gc show a very simple way to do it.
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They don't have time to train striking to protect themselves, but they are so concerned with protecting themselves that they spend time doing different self defense drills instead?

I know this is a real thing, but it make zero sense to me. If this made sense to me, I'd have never started BJJ.

"Nah bro, I'm cool. I don't need BJJ to deal with the reality of grappling. Naihanchi Shodan hidden techniques has ALL the grappling I need! I'm never training anything but 100% Karate until the day I die.

If you train Karate, and need to also train BJJ for self-defense, then something is seriously wrong with your Karate!"

Sounds like a joke, but that's a real thing too. So glad I never got into that.
 
Balto said:
They don't have time to train striking to protect themselves, but they are so concerned with protecting themselves that they spend time doing different self defense drills instead?

I know this is a real thing, but it make zero sense to me. If this made sense to me, I'd have never started BJJ.

"Nah bro, I'm cool. I don't need BJJ to deal with the reality of grappling. Naihanchi Shodan hidden techniques has ALL the grappling I need! I'm never training anything but 100% Karate until the day I die.

If you train Karate, and need to also train BJJ for self-defense, then something is seriously wrong with your Karate!"

Sounds like a joke, but that's a real thing too. So glad I never got into that.
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I simply disagree with you.

No, I dont have time to practice striking, I do however have time and find very entertaining to train bjj with strikes. It is my responsibility as an instructor to teach at least a strategy on how to get to a clinch without getting ktfo. If its your view that you must strike and the clinch will come naturally, then than might be your karate mind talking, not your bjj black belt. You crosstrained, and thats the reason you give that as a given, it is not. It might be the result, and yes normally the clinch will happen, thing is, when would it happen, and under what conditions.

I dont find your karate analogy of much use, because a. theres acutally a shit ton of people thinking that way 2. Its way harder to remain on your feet in a real fight than it is to fall down to the ground, nonetheless, the ideal is to chose how and when to fall, specially to fall on top.

Combatives is not about magic ninjas techniques, im quite sure you have not watch it, I spoke highly against it before I have, it is not. Its quite simple sistematic aproach to ground fighting.

I would invite you to watch I think it was UFC 5 o 6, where there was this tough as nails judoka, dude was a savage, but it was clear he had no fighting strategy on how to apply his judo to fighting. Way way wya lesser stand up grapplers such as royce ralph even rezon were taking down people with good old stomp/clinch/ trips.

So bottom line, I totally agree with people saying that IF you must learn some other type of MA to complement your bjj, then theres something wrong about it. However, bjj is not magic neither turns you into a ninja, so of course crosstraining is the ideal, but there are lots of motives why someone will just not like to take striking classes to complement his bjj.

Watch the DVD man, like I told leichen, I really think it will change your perception on what is this SD stuff Rener and Ryron are talking about (note that I find static SD drills suche as famous 36 helio techniques worthless to practice for real life application)
 
Yeah we just disagree. Like I said, I'll never understand the "purity" argument against cross training.

I find it a little ironic because if I had actually believed in that, I'd never have done BJJ. And doing BJJ was one of the best things I ever did in martial arts. It really comes in useful.

But obviously some people feel differently about purity than me.

I have learned useful stuff from the self-defense/Combatives guys, way beyond the static self-defense curriculum. I definitely incorporate some of it to this day. So I don't think it's a BS curriculum or anything. They put out some good stuff that I have seen.

I just don't see the niche it really fits in to be some kind of pure BJJ guy. All of this is basically irrelevant to any training I've done in the past ten years. I train with a lot of sport BJJ guys, I train with a lot of MMA fighters, and I train with a lot of guys who have to use force in their job (cops, security guards, prison guards, etc.) None of them ever bring up this pure BJJ stuff. They all cross train instead to one extent or another. Even when I was training with an old school, self-defense oriented, former military, former cop, Helio story telling, hardcore GJJ Relson Gracie black belt -- he still cross trained other arts too.

To me this is mostly just a discussion in the abstract because I never encounter this resistance in my actual training.
 
Balto said:
Yeah we just disagree. Like I said, I'll never understand the "purity" argument against cross training.

I find it a little ironic because if I had actually believed in that, I'd never have done BJJ. And doing BJJ was one of the best things I ever did in martial arts. It really comes in useful.

But obviously some people feel differently about purity than me.

I have learned useful stuff from the self-defense/Combatives guys, way beyond the static self-defense curriculum. I definitely incorporate some of it to this day. So I don't think it's a BS curriculum or anything. They put out some good stuff that I have seen.

I just don't see the niche it really fits in to be some kind of pure BJJ guy. All of this is basically irrelevant to any training I've done in the past ten years. I train with a lot of sport BJJ guys, I train with a lot of MMA fighters, and I train with a lot of guys who have to use force in their job (cops, security guards, prison guards, etc.) None of them ever bring up this pure BJJ stuff. They all cross train instead to one extent or another. Even when I was training with an old school, self-defense oriented, former military, former cop, Helio story telling, hardcore GJJ Relson Gracie black belt -- he still cross trained other arts too.

To me this is mostly just a discussion in the abstract because I never encounter this resistance in my actual training.
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I think it is just saying that one art should be enough for the everyday Joe to be able to defend himself reasonably well.

It is not about being the MMA champ.

Most adults work and have other shit going on. You cannot expect them to go to a westling class, a bjj class, and a mt class every week and then an mma class tying them all together.
And straight mma is going to be focused towards sport fighting with rules.
 
SBJ said:
What is the "purity" argument?

Who is against cross training?

o_O
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Oh come on now. You know the answer to that. How about the guy this thread is about?

Rickson against cross training here
http://www.woma.tv/7-suprising-insights-life-bjj-rickson-gracie/
7. Gracie Jiu Jitsu Is Enough For Anyone
Bang at the 26.00-minute point Rickson gives us his views on cross training.

Rickson is in no doubt that Gracie Jiu-Jitsu is enough for anyone and students should focus on making the art work against anyone.

Sure they might spar against boxers and other martial arts specialist but the Jiu-jitsu representative should learn to make their style effective and not try and learn other martial arts to fill a gap they think exists."
 
Pixelated Porn said:
Most adults work and have other shit going on.
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And I don't?

If you are doing 1 hr BJJ classes 2x a week, all you have to do is skip one of them once a month and hit up a striking class instead. Half the time it's in the same gym.

That won't make you the MMA champ either, but it goes pretty far for defending yourself as the "average Joe."
 
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