Roger Federer or Novak Djokovic - Who's the KING of kings in Tennis?

[ferrisjso]

That’s the most backwards thinking thing I’ve heard. It hurts him that he is the GOAT of a particular surface and dominated basically everyone? It’s the exact opposite and one of the main reasons he’s in the conversation

I mean it depends on how you look at it. Nadal is clearly the clay goat and that's a positive thing. But only a minority of tennis is played on clay(31% of Slams and Masters and it's even lower when you factor in ATP 500 and Finals) and Nadal while great is not the GOAT off of it. Hard courts are the default surface in tennis and that is ultimatly what decides the GOAT convo especially for this era(once upon a time it was grass).

 

[MM808]

I mean it depends on how you look at it. Nadal is clearly the clay goat and that's a positive thing. But only a minority of tennis is played on clay(31% of Slams and Masters and it's even lower when you factor in ATP 500 and Finals) and Nadal while great is not the GOAT off of it. Hard courts are the default surface in tennis and that is ultimatly what decides the GOAT convo especially for this era(once upon a time it was grass).

Yes that would be the case if he was bad off of it but he has won majors on every other surface too. Not to mention, none of the others can claim they are an undisputed GOAT of one surface.

It is not a negative thing at all.

 

[gspieler]

Don't worry about him. He can't accept the consensus that never regarded a one-surface pony as genuinely being in the race.

A "one-surface pony" that has as many Slams on non-clay as Agassi or Becker had in their entire careers, to include dethroning prime Fed at Wimbeldon, and having wins against prime Joker at every Slam. Yeah, real scrub everywhere except clay.

 

[Madmick]

A "one-surface pony" that has as many Slams on non-clay as Agassi or Becker had in their entire careers, to include dethroning prime Fed at Wimbeldon, and having wins against prime Joker at every Slam. Yeah, real scrub everywhere except clay.

Agassi and Becker.

Yeah, that's his class. Those are his peers.

 

[gspieler]

Agassi and Becker.

Yeah, that's his class. Those are his peers.

...if you took away his best surface, and the surface he is the best ever(by a country mile), then yes, his resume would appear to be merely comparable to top 10ish all time guys.

Now let's do the same with Fed. Take away grass or hard court(either). His resume will look a lot closer to Borg, McEnroe, etc, then it will to Nadal or Joker.

 

[ferrisjso]

...if you took away his best surface, and the surface he is the best ever(by a country mile), then yes, his resume would appear to be merely comparable to top 10ish all time guys.

Now let's do the same with Fed. Take away grass or hard court(either). His resume will look a lot closer to Borg, McEnroe, etc, then it will to Nadal or Joker.

The first issue with your logic is hard court is the default tennis surface so having a higher percentage of their wins on hard court isn't really the same thing as on clay. Grass today is the same thing but in relation to the older greats it used to be the default tennis surface.

 

[gspieler]

The first issue with your logic is hard court is the default tennis surface so having a higher percentage of their wins on hard court isn't really the same thing as on clay. Grass today is the same thing but in relation to the older greats it used to be the default tennis surface.

Well, I can't argue against the claim that clay surface is inherently a lesser form of the game, so you got me there. I'm reasoning under the assumption that all surfaces are equally relevant to the discussion.

 

[Shaungotti]

What's the argument for Federer being above Djokovic at this point? Novak has more grand slams. He has a better head to head. He has a better record against Federer in slams. He has more masters titles.

I grew up during the Sampras/Agassi years. Back then, the idea of talking about someone with 20 grand slams not being far and away the greatest ever would have been insane. It still blows my mind that there are 3 guys with 20+ grand slams.

 

[ferrisjso]

What's the argument for Federer being above Djokovic at this point? Novak has more grand slams. He has a better head to head. He has a better record against Federer in slams. He has more masters titles.

I grew up during the Sampras/Agassi years. Back then, the idea of talking about someone with 20 grand slams not being far and away the greatest ever would have been insane. It still blows my mind that there are 3 guys with 20+ grand slams.

The arguments(which I do not agree with but am explaining) is that Federer was considered the clear cut GOAT for a few years before Djokovic became number 1 while Djokovic was the third wheel to Federer and Nadal. In some peoples eyes nothing Djokovic or Federer did after that could shake that 1st impression. If you told them at that time Djokovic would pass Federer in slams they'd have thought you were insane. Think of it like someone refusing to acknowledge Brady being better than Peyton because of how things looked in the 2000s.

Theres also the "eye test". Of the big 3 Federer is the one who is the most visually impressive to watch. Hes also the only one with a power serve. The eye test should not matter above results. Greatness isn't determined by how much you enjoy watching someone play but this dynamic is undeniable.

 

[Shaungotti]

The arguments(which I do not agree with but am explaining) is that Federer was considered the clear cut GOAT for a few years before Djokovic became number 1 while Djokovic was the third wheel to Federer and Nadal. In some peoples eyes nothing Djokovic or Federer did after that could shake that 1st impression. If you told them at that time Djokovic would pass Federer in slams they'd have thought you were insane. Think of it like someone refusing to acknowledge Brady being better than Peyton because of how things looked in the 2000s.

Theres also the "eye test". Of the big 3 Federer is the one who is the most visually impressive to watch. Hes also the only one with a power serve. The eye test should not matter above results. Greatness isn't determined by how much you enjoy watching someone play but this dynamic is undeniable.

Admittedly, I got used to calling Federer the GOAT for years. His record against Rafa was a bit problematic but you could somewhat explain it away by saying that Roger had more slams (at the time) and so many of their matches were on clay.

There came a point where it became undeniable that Novak was above Federer in the GOAT conversation. I always pulled for Roger and was gutted after the Wimbledon loss. Not that a loss to Novak is surprising or anything but at 40-15 on Federer's serve, you don't expect him to lose. Of all the big losses he's had, I'm sure that one must burn the most.

 

[Sweater of AV]

I always pulled for Roger and was gutted after the Wimbledon loss. Not that a loss to Novak is surprising or anything but at 40-15 on Federer's serve, you don't expect him to lose. Of all the big losses he's had, I'm sure that one must burn the most.

After the 2011 US Open one shouldn't have any expectations when it comes to Federer serving for the match at 40-15 against Djokovic.

I was hoping Federer would win but Novak not giving a shit, ripping a return winner and then coming back to win was hilarious.

 

[Unknown Pleasures]

Admittedly, I got used to calling Federer the GOAT for years. His record against Rafa was a bit problematic but you could somewhat explain it away by saying that Roger had more slams (at the time) and so many of their matches were on clay.

There came a point where it became undeniable that Novak was above Federer in the GOAT conversation. I always pulled for Roger and was gutted after the Wimbledon loss. Not that a loss to Novak is surprising or anything but at 40-15 on Federer's serve, you don't expect him to lose. Of all the big losses he's had, I'm sure that one must burn the most.

Was that the one where Novax hit the crazy return on match point? That has to be the goat return ever considering the situation.

The argument for Federer is kinda flimsy. But like boxing, timing in tennis means a lot. Federer was possibly a little past peak when most of his matches with Novax and Nadal happened.

As others pointed out, Roger also had an elegance in his game and less of a grind. Should count towards who is your favorite, not the best, but people often conflate the two.

Anyways, for sensible people Novax is the GOAT and like Ali got robbed of some opportunities over bullshit.

 

[SaiWa]

Was that the one where Novax hit the crazy return on match point? That has to be the goat return ever considering the situation.

The argument for Federer is kinda flimsy. But like boxing, timing in tennis means a lot. Federer was possibly a little past peak when most of his matches with Novax and Nadal happened.

As others pointed out, Roger also had an elegance in his game and less of a grind. Should count towards who is your favorite, not the best, but people often conflate the two.

Anyways, for sensible people Novax is the GOAT and like Ali got robbed of some opportunities over bullshit.

I daresay I don't believe that Federer was past peak as a reason for falling behind Djoker (and Rafa). Fed was 30 years old or so in 2011 when he had that multiple matchpoint meltdown. That gutted me as well cause I am still a Fed fan but if you look at the stats Fed always played 3rd behind Rafa and Djoker more or less. Both of them elevated their game past Federer. Federer would coast through everyone else but those two. It was super frustrating as a Federer fan. I mean Rafa (at age 36) claimed 2 Grand Slams in 2022 (includes a 4th round 5-setter thriller against Djoker). Djoker this year is straight up murdering everyone with 3 Grand Slams at age 35/36.

 

[Unknown Pleasures]

I daresay I don't believe that Federer was past peak as a reason for falling behind Djoker (and Rafa). Fed was 30 years old or so in 2011 when he had that multiple matchpoint meltdown. That gutted me as well cause I am still a Fed fan but if you look at the stats Fed always played 3rd behind Rafa and Djoker more or less. Both of them elevated their game past Federer. Federer would coast through everyone else but those two. It was super frustrating as a Federer fan. I mean Rafa (at age 36) claimed 2 Grand Slams in 2022 (includes a 4th round 5-setter thriller against Djoker). Djoker this year is straight up murdering everyone with 3 Grand Slams at age 35/36.

All agreeable, but some folks peak at different ages relative to each other . It's an intangible judgment call.

 

[Gladiator24]

It’s Djokovic, it simply has to be now. He’s won the most grand slams, plus he’s winning grand slams at the age where no other tennis player has done ever before, he’s simply incredible. He’s still dominating the younger players and making it look easy. And he could’ve had more grand slams too if they didn’t stop him from entering in certain years, but he will no doubt go on to win even more and at the time he is finished there won’t be a shred of doubt who is the greatest, in fact he may even have a claim for greatest sportsman of all time once he is finished.

 

[Unknown Pleasures]

It’s Djokovic, it simply has to be now. He’s won the most grand slams, plus he’s winning grand slams at the age where no other tennis player has done ever before, he’s simply incredible. He’s still dominating the younger players and making it look easy. And he could’ve had more grand slams too if they didn’t stop him from entering in certain years, but he will no doubt go on to win even more and at the time he is finished there won’t be a shred of doubt who is the greatest, in fact he may even have a claim for greatest sportsman of all time once he is finished.

I'm watching this ATP Finals thing going on right now. Apparently it's the most presitigious tournament after the majors and Novaxx is going for record breaking 7 time champion (Note: Federer 6 time champ, Nadal 0).

Right now Sinner is getting smoked though there's still time to turn it around. But this win, and the inevitable hitting of the 400 weeks at number 1 milestone (longest of any male or female player in history) is just adding to the gap between him and the field.

 

[Unknown Pleasures]

Not wanting to create a new thread, but I caught Novax's first round match today. That 18 year old qualifier he played is special. He was brilliant and made Novax put in some serious work, and it wasn't because Novax was making a lot of errors. That kid has potential to be special.

On the women's side, the defending champion just demolished the female teenage qualifier from Germany who was doing so bad the German girl literally started to cry during the match. Was sad to see, like Jerry Krause's widow.