Sam McVey thoughts?

DeJulez

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Built like a truck.
I'll post pics in a lil and some clips that are around. Can't do it at the moment.
Good fighter.
Was thinking what some of the posters who tend to have knowledge on the old school fighters think of him

Also fought in two MMA fights, they were called "all in" fights at the time.
Went 2-0 and beat two jiu jitsu fighters.
But was Colored Heavyweight champ. Can't remember if he beat Jack Johnson but I'm pretty sure he beat Langford and then lost to him a few times.
Reminds me of a bigger Shawn Porter
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Looks like a menacing guy to fight
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This is him KOing some Jiu Jitsu guy
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i read about him, i try not to judge the guys who have little to no film on them.
 
Hard to judge but just looking At his resume he was pretty good for the era
 
he looks like the other guys of the era which is to say old fashioned. well, he might be the only boxer to legit beat jiu jitsu guys huh?
 
he looks like the other guys of the era which is to say old fashioned. well, he might be the only boxer to legit beat jiu jitsu guys huh?
There was plenty back in those times.
Most were boxers in the Navy who were docked in Asia or Australia.
I guess they use to have alot of discipline vs discipline fights back in the day.
 
I call BS on most of those fights that boxrec lists as being for the "colored heavyweight title" including a bunch in which McVey was involved in. I wished boxrec reserachers would go back and do some real research on those instead of relying on sources written decades after the fact. Not that a "colored heavyweight title" wasn't around back then, because one did exist for a small period of time. But when I've gone back into the archives from the time I've only seen evidence that it existed after the point in time when Johnson's wife committed suicide, which Johnson announced his retirement soon after, and then after he was arrested on trumped up charges. That was towards the end of 1912 I do believe, and then into 1913 you can find some evidence where the title was split between a "white" and a "colored" version. That's because a lot of people involved in boxing didn't think Johnson would fight again. But previous to that, I've never seen it. I only saw one guy mentioned as the "colored heavyweight champion" and he went by the name of Jack Johnson who just happened to be a "colored" heavyweight champion.

That's not to say that some of those fights between Langford, Jeannette, McVey, etc., weren't contested for someone's idea of a "world title" because some of them were advertised as such. But those situations generally arose when Johnson backed out of deals he had agreed to (or refused to outright) in certain parts of the world. The National Sporting Club out of England stripped Johnson of his claim to the title when he refused to honour a signed agreement he had to face Langford and instead made Langford-Hague for their version of the "world championship". The powers that be in Australia made a similar decision when Johnson refused to honour an agreement he had to face McVey, and instead made Langford-McVey for their version of the "world championship". Ditto with the Federation de Boxe out of France (in which the first version of the IBU later followed suite). They also stripped Johnson of his claim to the world title when he refused to face Langford despite the French promoter (Vienne) meeting his demands. They made Langford-Jeannette for their version of the "world championship". Situations like that. They weren't being advertised or spoke about in the newspapers immediately after the fact as being fights for the "world colored championship". Just version around the world of the outright "world championship" regardless of the fighters' skin colour.
 
There was plenty back in those times.
Most were boxers in the Navy who were docked in Asia or Australia.
I guess they use to have alot of discipline vs discipline fights back in the day.
did boxers commonly defeat grapplers?
 
Although there isn't much footage of him, on appearance alone I can tell he beat the ever living fuck out of a lot of other people
 
This is cool. Also less surprising than it would be today, since early boxers studied a fair amount of wrestling.

What are the sources describing the two mixed bouts?
News papers I believe.
Ill find them later for you.
 
They had elaborate sets of rules for American boxers versus Japanese jiujitsu and early judo guys, called Merikan. Apparently the jiujitsu guys usually won, but it wasn't a sure thing:

https://bullshido.org/Merikan
Not when it was actual boxers.
Usually it was US Servicemen that the Jiujitsu guys would fight. So its really not boxers they were fighting, but military men who were learning boxing.
 
@Cross_Trainer Here you go
The night of the fight, December 31, 1908, the Marigny Theatre was packed to capacity. Even tickets to stand in the darkened back had gone for a "whopping" 7 francs apiece. Tano had arrived the day before, but had gone immediately to his hotel, sending M. Baxter as his representative to meet with Mr. Belvallette, representing the Pelican Boxing Club, and the referee, M. Reichel, to go over the rules. The contest was to be held under the "traditional regulations of boxing against jiu-jitsu fighting" which apparently were common enough that there was little debate as to what they involved. McVea would not have to wear a jacket or vest, but would wear boxing gloves. He would also be permitted to strike his opponent on the ground, while the only tactic forbidden to Tano was gouging the eyes. Each round would last three minutes and the match would continue until one of the men was unable to stand within a ten-count, conceded defeat, or the referee determined they were unfit to continue. In any case, It was also agreed by all parties that any and all decisions by Reichel would be final.

Sam was guaranteed 2,000 pounds win, lose or draw. He thought it would be easy money until Langford said, "Lord almighty, Sambo, he'll snap youse bones like matches."

These words from a tough little man like Langford put fear into McVey. He entered the ring ashen grey. He worried off nearly a stone in the few days before the contest. I told him that his only chance was to get the Japanese with the first punch.

"If you miss," I added, "he'll be throwing your arms and legs to the audience in half a minute."

"Lord, save me," groaned McVey.

McVea's confidence grew when he watched his opponent enter the ring, for Tano Matsuda wasn't the dreaded Japanese champion he'd be billed as but instead "he was a pathetic english man, skinny, and emaciated." This was soon followed by another surprise, as Baxter now demanded that each round be only two minutes in duration, and, more importantly, that McVea don an uwagiju-jitsu jacket. There was a huge expression of outrage from the crowd, but both Baxter and Tano refuse to concede on this demand. Sam eventually gave in, and the match was ready to proceed.



The gong sounded and Tano rushed McVea, who, still worried by Langford's warning and remembering Duke's advice, let loose with fearsome left hook which caught Matsuda squarely on the jaw, dropping him to the canvas. Since striking on the ground was allowed, McVea followed up but only lightly as his opponent was finished. The referee quickly stopped the action, and in only eight seconds it was over.
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"All-in" fighting was another name for "anything goes" and "no holds barred"; or "vale tudo", as it later become known in Brazil. As for Australia, it was, at the time of McVea's visit, probably the world's center for all-in fighting.

It had become popular a few years earlier thanks mostly to a pair of feuding jujutsuka, Ryugoro Fukishima and Professor P.W. Stevenson. Besides a highly publicized series of matches between the two, they both actively engaged in contests with wrestler and boxers, sparking the craze for the new "sport" of "all-in" fighting.

By the time McVea and his companions showed up, bouts between jujutsuka, wrestlers, and boxers were common occurrences. In fact, in early 1911 a "champion wrestler, weight-lifter, and physical culturist" by the name of Clarence Weber "challenge to fight Jack Johnson ‘all in,' and thus prove the, physical supremacy of the white race."


This "all-in" contest, according to Weber, was to be under the ancient rules of Pancratium, (the Latin name for the Ancient Greek sport of Pankration).

Another, more serious, proposition came soon after from the previously mentioned Professor P.W. Stevenson. With the departure of Johnson back to the states, his challenge was directed at McVea and Langford.

"I reckon I can beat either 'Sam' McVea or 'Sam' Langford in an hour." The professor is very keen on meeting one of the two colored boxers, as he is convinced of his ability to show that boxing, even in the hands of such capable exponents, is not the equal of the Japanese art as a means of self-defence. He is prepared to wager either McVea or Langford a modest £150 that in 12 bouts of five minutes each he can compel his opponent to cry enough seven times.
"They are great men at their own game, but I have maintained all along, and am of the same opinion still, that with ju-jitsu I can beat any boxer living... I will place no restrictions on them or make any impossible stipulations. The boxer will appear after his custom, wearing the police regulation gloves. I will come forward in ordinary costume....As a matter of fact, I don't care what gloves the boxer wears. He need not wear any at all if the police will permit him."
During Sam McVea's entertalnment at the Rink Hall last night the dusky boxer was publicly challenged to a contest -Ju jitsu and boxing-by the Ju jitsu champion, Professor Stevenson, who is well known locally. The challenge was laid for £25 aside, but this was declined, and the sum was eventually increased to £100 and accepted.
McVea's manager, Mr. Albert Morrow, met wth Stevenson at the Royal Hotel at eleven o'clock that night to hammer out the details for the match, which they agreed to hold the first week of next month. It would be contested on a "jiu-jitsu carpet" (mat) and would be made up of ten five-minute rounds divided by three minute rest periods between them. Each round would be treated as an individual bout and the winner of the contest was to be determined by who took the majority of the rounds. It was agreed that each combatant "should adhere to the rules of their respective sciences": for the the Professor that meant wearing a gi, while McVea would be sporting gloves.

McVea will be entitled to hit Stevenson In any position that he may assume for aggressive purposes, whether it be standing, kneeling, lying down or otherwise. Stevenson Is debarred kicking for the heart and the straight body kick. [EN19]


The £100 side bet, a large amount to most working people at this time but a paltry sum to a prizefighter like McVea, was a common ruse among wrestlers and boxers at the time to drum up interest. The real money in such a match would be from the gate, which led some to suggest that the contest wouldn't be on the up-and-up. As one newspaper put it



The contest between the two champions of boxing and jiu-jitsu took place at the Rink Hall on November 6th, a Thursday evening. A pair of exhibition boxing matches involving local Lismore fighters preceded the main event which commenced shortly after 9 o'clock. Stevenson, who weighed less than 11 stones, was cornered by his assistant and pupil, Jack Ross. McVea, who had more than 50 pounds on the jiu-jitsu exponent, was attended by his trainer Peter Felix. A Mr. Jerry Mahony acted as the timekeeper, while the referee was an ex-champion of Swiss wrestling and Lismore engineer by the name of Gus Hillman.
 
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At the signal to commence the first round Stevenson threw a somersault across the ring and landed prone. He grasped McVea's ankle... McVea looked as though he could have banged away at any portion of Stevenson's anatomy, but close watchers could observe McVea's ankle gradually being twisted round. Not only could he not hit his opponent, but found It impossible even to stand up. He fell eventually and Stevenson worked his hold right up the body, grabbed the right arm, and McVea tapped.
Stevenson had taken the first round in less than 2 minutes. The next few rounds would follow a similar pattern: Stevenson would work to drag McVea to the ground where he would then gain the submission around the 2 minute mark. In the second round, Stevenson tripped McVea to the ground where they rolled around before "Stevenson got the neck hold and seemed to be in a position in which he could have throttled McVea. McVea tapped once more." In the third, Stevenson fell back and dragged McVea down with him where he secured a "severe arm hold" and "Eventually McVea gave way once more". In the fourth, "Stevenson dropped to the ground and lay there, inviting an attack. McVea lunged at him, and Stevenson grabbed his arm and ragged his opponent down" where he secured a scissors hold on McVea's head, forcing him to surrender yet again.
Now down four rounds to none and on the brink of losing the match, many spectators began to question if McVea was giving it his all. It was obvious that the Professor was doing almost all the hard work: where he was perspiring heavily and breathing hard, McVea looked about as fresh as he did when the match began.The boxer had managed some offense, landing some lefts and uppercuts in rounds two and three, and ramming some hard blows to Stevenson's midsection when trapped in the scissors hold in the fourth, but nothing too meaningful or threatening.

During the bout the work of neither man was received very well. The sporadic applause was always downed by cries of dissatisfaction. However, It appeared to some that McVea missed many occasions when he could easily have despatched his opponent

Some, perhaps more astute, witnesses were more forgiving of McVea's seemingly poor showing.

McVea, however, was justified in being cautious,however,as to be caught off his guard for a second meant defeat against so skillful an exponent of jiu-jitsu.

Whatever criticisms there were of McVea were disregarded in the "sensational" fifth round.

Stevenson easily got hold of McVea's neck. The latter, however, seemed to be prepared for this. He straightened up and swung Stevenson off his feet, and whilst he clung there McVea drove solid blows to tbe stomach They were very sold blows, and they eventually drove Stevenson off. Then M'Vea got to work in earnest, and at long range attacked Stevenson's head. He sent in heavy lefts to the jaw. Three times in succession he sent Stevenson to the boards for four seconds, four seconds, and eight seconds. Stevenson got up very groggy, and McVea went In to finish him. Stevenson, however, dragged his man In agaln, and both fell on the floor. McVea continued to send In solid punches to the body and face. Stevenson turned over, and McVea Immediately drove In three powerful blows to the back of the neck and Stevenson was out.

Stevenson's corner, unable to revive him in time for the next round, decided to throw in the towel. This was met by hooting from the crowd, mostly from Stevenson supporters upset that he was about to be declared the loser even though he was up four rounds to one.

Afterwards, McVea explained his strategy (Stevenson was reported to have not been in any condition to speak to the press): being familiar with jiu-jitsu, he had intentionally been overly cautious, wanting to force the smaller Stevenson to tire himself out while not risking injury himself. Eventually in the fifth round an opening appeared and he took full advantage of it, proving that his strategy had been sound.

Sam McVea never again faced a ju-jitsu exponent, instead focusing the rest of his days on boxing. He ended his Hall of Fame career with a record of 65-16-12 in the sport.

And 2-0 in "all-in".
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They had elaborate sets of rules for American boxers versus Japanese jiujitsu and early judo guys, called Merikan. Apparently the jiujitsu guys usually won, but it wasn't a sure thing:

https://bullshido.org/Merikan
ok, thanks, i probably read sometime in the past but i read so much that i sometimes forget what i read. I'll check it out.
 
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