Serious Movie Discussion XLI

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Bullitt68

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Reboot.

The original OP from Mr. HuntersCreed:

For real movie fans.
This thread isn't for:
-people that think Transformers was one of the top 20 greatest movies of all time.
-people that think Shia LaBeouf is a GREAT actor, or find his halfstache appealing.
-people who's only real opinions are that The Goonies, The Usual Suspects, Fight Club, Donnie Darko, Boondock Saints, Pan's Labyrinth, The Dark Knight, etc. are the greatest films of all time and that's all they can talk about. Though the aforementioned films are great, and discussing them is welcome.
-people that Christian Bale, Christian Bale, Christian Bale, blah, blah, blah, Christian Bale.

This thread is for:
-people who value the artistry that takes place behind the camera, as well as in front of it.
-people who realize that explosions, and special effects aren't the only thing that make a good movie.
-people who have seen a few movies beyond what Hollywood puts out.
-people who know some directors and their styles.
-people who know who one or more of the following are.
--Aaron Eckhardt
--Bruce Campbell
--Vincent DiOnofrio
--Terrence Malick
--Werner Herzog
--Ellen Paige

The list of the original thread regulars' 25 favorite films, a nice gauge for any newcomers to see where/how their taste falls in line with that of the posters who make up this thread.

On November 9th, 2009, the Serious Movie Discussion regulars were asked to submit their 25 favorite movies. Thread regular flemmy tallied up the scores and made a list of this thread's 25 favorite movies. For users thinking about becoming regulars in here wondering about our taste, here is what the list looks like.

  1. Pulp Fiction


  2. Fight Club


  3. Heat


  4. Terminator 2


  5. Aliens


  6. Goodfellas


  7. Predator


  8. Taxi Driver


  9. Die Hard


  10. Snatch


  11. The Thing


  12. The Dark Knight


  13. Jaws


  14. The Big Lebowski


  15. Raging Bull


  16. There Will Be Blood


  17. The Shining


  18. Casino


  19. Leon: The Professional


  20. The Godfather


  21. A Clockwork Orange


  22. Children of Men


  23. City of God


  24. Once Upon a Time in the West


  25. Oldboy

So, if a lot of these films are favorites of yours, as well as ours, it's safe to assume you'll fit in very nicely here.

For a while now, this is the spot in the thread where we had reserved space to acknowledge the passing of Kansas (regarding the poster Kansas (aka StillInKansas)) one of the earliest and most frequent contributors to serious movie discussion. Sadly, another poster needs to be added to the in memoriam section of this OP: The earliest contributor, the TS himself, HuntersCreed (http://forums.sherdog.com/threads/rip-hunterscreed.3240777/).

Both HuntersCreed and Kansas were among the best friends of this thread, and they will be fondly remembered by all of us.
 
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I don't know what gym rescue is

It was that Spike thing with Randy Couture and Frank Shamrock trying to save failing gyms. I just watched the first episode to see the two of them. I can't actually watch reality shows.

it's a reality show.

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I already watched some Big Brother for you way back, which I never would've done for anybody else, and now this is on the horizon. What's the deal with you and reality shows? How come you like reality shows more than dramatic series? Is it the format itself or is it just certain reality shows?

They are good but not great.

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It pains me to see Norse mythology birth the inspiration for such crap.

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Cool. I always was one of those Karloff > Lugosi types of people, even though I love the original Dracula.

The Body Snatcher is also the last of their many memorable onscreen pairings.

So would you be okay If I started refeering to Rebecca as a David O Selznick flick?:p (jk)

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In all seriousness, though, Spellbound and The Paradine Case were the ones where he inserted himself into the productions the most. And it shows, especially if you compare Spellbound and The Paradine Case (he even wrote the script for the latter, which was the last time Hitchcock worked with him and is by far his worst outing with Selznick and just one of his worst movies period) to Notorious, which he made in between and which he produced himself.

I've seen some. I always thought it was funny, but nowhere near Seinfeld.

That goes without saying. It's still fun, though, and at the very least you should watch Season 7 with the Seinfeld reunion show arc. It's gold.

I particularly loved the dynamic between Ruffalo and RDJ (and they continued with it very well in the second movie)

I'd disagree with this. I did love that scene in The Avengers where RDJ is going off on Jackson and how annoying his secrecy is and then he just goes, "It's bugging him, too," and Ruffalo tries to pretend like he's not in the room. That dynamic was great, and on top of that you have RDJ's child-like fascination trying to poke him and make him turn. In the sequel, though, Ruffalo was such a beta. No sane person would've let RDJ do any of that crazy AI shit, and Ruffalo is actually close to RDJ in the brains department, but he just lets him walk all over him. It was tough for me to buy how soft Ruffalo sold his scientist character in those interactions.

and the tension between Evans and RDJ (which builds well to Civil War).

I only watched the trailers for Civil War yesterday, that shit looks fucking insane. I might just have to see that one on the big screen. What's the deal with Spider Man showing up, though? Since when is he a part of this shit? Is that from the comics?

The final battle- where you have all those different Iron Man suits battling on Tony's behalf, is a key example of something that on paper sounds so badass, but ended up being executed in a way that seemed confusing/loud/and messy.

Oh, I was totally on board with that. I loved the Batman Forever angle with his house getting destroyed and having to rely on his prototype thing, and then having all the suits flying around and him trying to jump into them, I thought that was all handled very well.

Oh and don't get me started with Ben Kingsley.

I loved that part! If Guy Pearce sucked as the villain, or if someone else had played that character and sucked, then I could've seen the Kingsley switch as a waste. However, Pearce was so good and was such an imposing villain that they didn't need Kingsley as the/another villain and so the switch worked perfectly. I loved the reveal and I loved every subsequent second with Kingsley, who I actually wouldn't have expected to have been able to play that part as hilariously as he did.

I thought Hemsworth was awesome in this one. Had some really funny lines/moments in the earlygoing but they didn't seem forced or out of place.

My favorite part was when they're all trying to pick up his hammer and he gets nervous for a quick second when it looks like Evans might actually pull it off. But then later it seemed like the writers had the same thoughts I mentioned about Thor's Superman syndrome, so they wrote that stupid shit where he has to go Inception himself back to Asgard and have his AI vision, conveniently eliminating him from the fighting.

Wasn't a big fan of Hulk/BW romance as it felt very much out of left field to me.

I actually liked that. It did come from out of left field, but the writing was solid and they both really sold it. And I liked that moment at the end with Jackson. I'm actually looking forward to seeing how that develops.

The thing is these big battles are all about The Avengers crushing cans. Sooner or later they are going to have to give the fights more weight by making the threats more credible.

This is why the mind control shit got on my nerves, that just felt like the laziest attempt to lessen their awesomeness. In any event, I think they've had the right idea in both movies in terms of making credible threats by virtue not of how imposing the opposition is but simply by the quantity of the opposition. There's just so many that they have to deal with that that's what becomes the challenge. They also worked around that issue with the ticking clock, first with the missile and then with the asteroid island (the latter was far stupider but it's the same principle).

Since I don't know shit about the comics, just out of curiosity, when you're saying they have to make the threats more credible, is that something that can readily be done? Are there villains in the Marvel backlog that could be Bane-like in fucking the Avengers' shit up?
 
I already watched some Big Brother for you way back, which I never would've done for anybody else, and now this is on the horizon. What's the deal with you and reality shows? How come you like reality shows more than dramatic series? Is it the format itself or is it just certain reality shows?

There's trashy reality, which i mostly don't like. Jersey Shore is the exception. That show was amazing.

Then there's competition reality, which i really like. There's often trash and scripted bs integrated in them, and whether i want to ignore that or indulge in it is up to me, because the competition comes down to real skills.

Nathan For You is parody and satire though. Like Da Ali G Show. I swear to God, it's the funniest thing that's ever been on TV.

 
Here's a list of my favorite lesser-known/foreign films:

Max Manus: Man of War (2008)(Norway)True story about Max sabotaging & assassinating Nazi's during WWII. A real superhero, amazing
Investigation of a Citizen Above Suspicion (1970) (Italy) Great & honest movie about a power, politics, police, & murder.
The Baader Meinhof-Complex (2008) (Germany) Insane true story, great acting, production... a real action movie that actually happened.
Sacco & Vanzetti (1971) (Italy) 100% true, documentary-style movie. Amazing acting, crazy story.
Stalingrad (1993) (Germany) Better than full-metal jacket. Epic, disturbing movie, with solid acting. No romanticism here.
Christiane F. (1981)(Germany) Like a German version of trainspotting with 14 year old no-name actors, but holy shit do they sell it. Disturbing
Paths Of Glory (1957) (USA) Stanley Kubrick, well-known but often get's overlooked because it's so old.
Fitzcarraldo (1982) (Germany) Not for everyone by any means but I love every minute of it. Herzog is the man. Aguirre... as well.
Mesrine 1 & 2 (2008) (France) True story about a crazy French Gangster in the 70's. Great acting and production as well. Vincent Cassel.
No Man's Land (2001) (Bosnia) Brilliant war movie, no action though. It's a thought-provoking, honest movie, with very convincing acting.
The Battle of Algiers (1966)(France) Well-known but ignored or forgotten. Great movie once it gets going.
Il Caso Mattei (1972) (Italy) The true story of Enrico Mattei, a freedom fighter turned politician who was assassinated by oil interests.
The Saint of Fort Washington (1993) (USA) Sad & realistic account of some homeless people in NYC. Great acting.
The Devil's Double (2011) (Belgium) 95% true story of an Iraqi forced to ex-communicate his family and serve as Saddam's son's double.
Confessions of a Police Commissioner(1971) (Italy) Great Story, decent movie. They don't make honest movies like this anymore
Django (1966) (Italy) The movie that inspired Django Unchained, and about 75 other movies. Like Rambo meets
The Great Silence (1968) (Italy) another Sergio Corbucci classic Spaghetti western. One of the best movie endings of all time
Father's Day (2011) (Canada) This movie has everything, literally everything, on a shoe-string budget. Hilarious, insane, brutal, gruesome.
World on a Wire (1973) (Germany) Plays on the disconnect between your eyes and your brain to make you question reality.
And Starring Pancho Villa as Himself (2003) (USA) Under-rated. True story about the legend Pancho Villa AND the first real movie ever.
A Bullet for the General (1966) (Italy) Gian Maria Volonte & Klaus Kinski in a western about the Mexican revolution! 3 awesome things in one


I'm also a huge fan of Tarantino & like Stanley Kubrick a lot but everyone knows them. Hollywood forgot how to tell stories, it's all about fake CGI graphics now. It's just not the same when the action is all made on a computer and the actor is just jumping around in front of a green screen. I love Jackie Chan movies because there's real danger involved, it adds to the intensity.

I watched Dirty Mary, Crazy Larry the other month, the helicopter chase scene was awesome. Way better than any CGI crap. The only reason the recent Mad Max was any good was because most of the stunts and explosions were real, that guy gets it, even though he forgot to add a story.
 
What's the deal with you and reality shows? How come you like reality shows more than dramatic series? Is it the format itself or is it just certain reality shows?

If I may:

The man is a story guy above all else. This is a medium which literally bends reality to squeeze a story into. I'm often astounded by how well this shit is edited to form narrative. For most the problem is noticing this. It distracts from the fictional dream on a level of authenticity.

But this dude is all about ignoring the pretense of that authenticity. A day ago he was talking about how philosophy is a default presence within a human's subconscious. So watching the makers edit rolling in the mud to fight for a common object so that it seems a life and death endeavour is no biggie.

I'm not judging. I don't think it's switching off a brain at all. In fact, he's more engaged because he's in the moment more than any of us, who are fools dividing shit into subject and object constantly. It annoys me, actually.
 
Is flemmy gonna have to choke a bitch?

You can choke me, but you can't choke the truth.

The only reason I cared about the main character at all was because he had a team of hot virgins with him.

Nathan for you can be hilarious at times. Do you think the stores are even real? Or are they just set-up for the show?
 
Here's a list of my favorite lesser-known/foreign films:

Max Manus: Man of War (2008)(Norway)True story about Max sabotaging & assassinating Nazi's during WWII. A real superhero, amazing
Investigation of a Citizen Above Suspicion (1970) (Italy) Great & honest movie about a power, politics, police, & murder.
The Baader Meinhof-Complex (2008) (Germany) Insane true story, great acting, production... a real action movie that actually happened.
Sacco & Vanzetti (1971) (Italy) 100% true, documentary-style movie. Amazing acting, crazy story.
Stalingrad (1993) (Germany) Better than full-metal jacket. Epic, disturbing movie, with solid acting. No romanticism here.
Christiane F. (1981)(Germany) Like a German version of trainspotting with 14 year old no-name actors, but holy shit do they sell it. Disturbing
Paths Of Glory (1957) (USA) Stanley Kubrick, well-known but often get's overlooked because it's so old.
Fitzcarraldo (1982) (Germany) Not for everyone by any means but I love every minute of it. Herzog is the man. Aguirre... as well.
Mesrine 1 & 2 (2008) (France) True story about a crazy French Gangster in the 70's. Great acting and production as well. Vincent Cassel.
No Man's Land (2001) (Bosnia) Brilliant war movie, no action though. It's a thought-provoking, honest movie, with very convincing acting.
The Battle of Algiers (1966)(France) Well-known but ignored or forgotten. Great movie once it gets going.
Il Caso Mattei (1972) (Italy) The true story of Enrico Mattei, a freedom fighter turned politician who was assassinated by oil interests.
The Saint of Fort Washington (1993) (USA) Sad & realistic account of some homeless people in NYC. Great acting.
The Devil's Double (2011) (Belgium) 95% true story of an Iraqi forced to ex-communicate his family and serve as Saddam's son's double.
Confessions of a Police Commissioner(1971) (Italy) Great Story, decent movie. They don't make honest movies like this anymore
Django (1966) (Italy) The movie that inspired Django Unchained, and about 75 other movies. Like Rambo meets
The Great Silence (1968) (Italy) another Sergio Corbucci classic Spaghetti western. One of the best movie endings of all time
Father's Day (2011) (Canada) This movie has everything, literally everything, on a shoe-string budget. Hilarious, insane, brutal, gruesome.
World on a Wire (1973) (Germany) Plays on the disconnect between your eyes and your brain to make you question reality.
And Starring Pancho Villa as Himself (2003) (USA) Under-rated. True story about the legend Pancho Villa AND the first real movie ever.
A Bullet for the General (1966) (Italy) Gian Maria Volonte & Klaus Kinski in a western about the Mexican revolution! 3 awesome things in one


I'm also a huge fan of Tarantino & like Stanley Kubrick a lot but everyone knows them. Hollywood forgot how to tell stories, it's all about fake CGI graphics now. It's just not the same when the action is all made on a computer and the actor is just jumping around in front of a green screen. I love Jackie Chan movies because there's real danger involved, it adds to the intensity.

I watched Dirty Mary, Crazy Larry the other month, the helicopter chase scene was awesome. Way better than any CGI crap. The only reason the recent Mad Max was any good was because most of the stunts and explosions were real, that guy gets it, even though he forgot to add a story.
Only film i've seen on this list is Mesrine, but damn was it good. Vincent Cassell >>>>
 
In case people haven't seen these:





I've said it before and I'll say it again: I love the internet :D

There's trashy reality, which i mostly don't like. Jersey Shore is the exception. That show was amazing.

That's the kind of shit I could never watch. Ayn Rand talks about how, for her, the experience of both creating and consuming art is a matter of creating or immersing herself in a world she would like to live in filled with people she would like to be around. For me, the reason I love art is that it serves that purpose as well as the purpose of abstracting negatives (whether in the form of concepts, like the concept of a malevolent, deterministic universe, or in the form of people, like immoral assholes or weak losers) and allowing me controlled access to them. I'm not like Rand in the sense that, for me, an artwork filled with shitty people I'd never want to associate myself with IRL isn't automatically terrible. I do, however, consider Rand's position on art as such to be a valid position on reality TV in particular. If I'm going to spend time in the world - emphasis on the world, not a fictional analog but the world in which we all live and which I am always horrified to find I share with such morons as the likes that populate reality TV - with a bunch of people, then if they're fucktards I'd want to kill IRL, there's no fictional barrier between them and me: I want to kill them just as much. Fiction dilutes the objectionable for the sake of contemplation. Reality TV doesn't. And I just can't take it.

Also, if you would've made it past the first two minutes of The Newsroom, you would've seen this:



Then there's competition reality, which i really like.

I've always liked game shows and trivia shows, but shit like Survivor and The Amazing Race (not to mention ridiculous shit like Fear Factor) just seem so silly and arbitrary.

Nathan For You is parody and satire though [...] I swear to God, it's the funniest thing that's ever been on TV.

I watched that clip and a bunch of other ones scrolling through Youtube. I don't see the potential experience of watching that as being tortuous, so I might just be down for a trade in the future. I will say, though, that I only chuckled a couple of times from what I watched so far (that man zone one was dumb but I laughed at the dude at the end, and then I watched the poo flavored yogurt one which was pretty funny) and I doubt it'll ever go beyond that simply because I hate pranks/practical jokes and shit like that (always hated Punk'd on principle). I can see why you like it - it's got the weird, quirky awkwardness of the Wet Hot/Stella guys - and I can see why you think I'd like it. And I do to an extent. But, once again going back to the fiction/reality thing, I'd find that stuff funnier in fictionalized form. Knowing that's real, that the people he's screwing with actually own businesses and that the shit he's "satirizing" are those people's livelihoods, just pisses me off. I have too much empathy and I can't help but put myself in the place of those business owners and if that jackass was bugging me I'd go Casino on him ("I want you to exit this guy off the premises and I want you to exit him off his feet and use his head to open the fucking door"). Even in fictional form, "awkward comedy" is contradictory; my least favorite parts of The Office, the parts that I've never found even remotely funny and which I always fast-forward, are the awkward moments when Michael is genuinely hurt or humiliated. Jackass style stuff where everybody is in on it and is fair game, not to mention where it's mostly physical with the pranks rather than psychological/emotional, I have no problem with that, but past that, I don't find it funny and actually find it antithetical to comedy.

Hollywood forgot how to tell stories, it's all about fake CGI graphics now. It's just not the same when the action is all made on a computer and the actor is just jumping around in front of a green screen. I love Jackie Chan movies because there's real danger involved, it adds to the intensity.

These are different issues you're complaining about here. Authenticity in action, however you happen to define that, has nothing to do with "how to tell stories." In fact, the stories in Jackie Chan movies are some of the thinnest and silliest of all martial arts movies whether from Hong Kong or Hollywood.


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I love you, Ricky, but you're not helping Flemmy's cause. Your prolix disquisition on the "merits" of reality TV actually makes you both seem even crazier o_O

The man is a story guy above all else. This is a medium which literally bends reality to squeeze a story into. I'm often astounded by how well this shit is edited to form narrative. For most the problem is noticing this.

Reality TV is about conflict, not story. It's not "squeezing a story into" reality; at best it's contextualizing a conflict and at worst it's manufacturing a conflict. Conflict is the heart of a good story, but for me, just as much with people as with storytelling, my interest is not merely in watching a heart beat.

But this dude is all about ignoring the pretense of that authenticity. A day ago he was talking about how philosophy is a default presence within a human's subconscious. So watching the makers edit rolling in the mud to fight for a common object so that it seems a life and death endeavour is no biggie.

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I'm not judging.

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I don't think it's switching off a brain at all.

It's not switching the brain off, but it is going over into the right lane and comfortably cruising at the speed limit while everybody else is driving like they got somewhere worth getting to.

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In fact, he's more engaged because he's in the moment more than any of us, who are fools dividing shit into subject and object constantly.

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Also, my apologies, Flemmy. Me and Ricky arguing without - but about - you makes me think of one of my favorite moments from Everybody Loves Raymond:

 
Also, my apologies, Flemmy. Me and Ricky arguing without - but about - you makes me think of one of my favorite moments from Everybody Loves Raymond:



Dude, your posts are all so long i would have never noticed it was going on.
 
I'm looking forward to the end of the month when the Belfast Film Festival will be on, there's quite a few things I plan on seeing but one I am really looking forward to is Embrace the Serpent. Has anyone seen it?
 
I watched that clip and a bunch of other ones scrolling through Youtube. I don't see the potential experience of watching that as being tortuous, so I might just be down for a trade in the future. I will say, though, that I only chuckled a couple of times from what I watched so far (that man zone one was dumb but I laughed at the dude at the end, and then I watched the poo flavored yogurt one which was pretty funny) and I doubt it'll ever go beyond that simply because I hate pranks/practical jokes and shit like that (always hated Punk'd on principle).

I immediately regretted showing you that clip because without the context of knowing him and how he constantly struggles to fit in, you couldn't possibly get everything out of it.

I can see why you like it - it's got the weird, quirky awkwardness of the Wet Hot/Stella guys - and I can see why you think I'd like it. And I do to an extent. But, once again going back to the fiction/reality thing, I'd find that stuff funnier in fictionalized form.

You're going to love it. I've shown it to a lot of people and everyone loves it.

Knowing that's real, that the people he's screwing with actually own businesses and that the shit he's "satirizing" are those people's livelihoods, just pisses me off. I have too much empathy and I can't help but put myself in the place of those business owners and if that jackass was bugging me I'd go Casino on him ("I want you to exit this guy off the premises and I want you to exit him off his feet and use his head to open the fucking door"). Even in fictional form, "awkward comedy" is contradictory; my least favorite parts of The Office, the parts that I've never found even remotely funny and which I always fast-forward, are the awkward moments when Michael is genuinely hurt or humiliated.

Once in a while it will be the case where someone is just so ridiculous and deserving of it, he let's them be the butt of the joke. But 90-95% of it falls on him.

I don't care if you end up watching it or not, but I'm positive you'll like it more than I'll like anything that's recommended to me.
 
Lol. You're mistaken that I'm defending him at all. I can't do what he does. I don't like the idea that it has less merit though. Half of Flemmy's awesomeness comes from this aspect of his approach. Why he inherently notices story elements in Mad Max that you have to argue about till you see, and that I have to concentrate like crazy for.

And you're smarter than splitting hairs - conflict and story. You said exactly what I did re: "manufacturing conflict". We can get into the nitty gritty of that if you like, and you know I can, but it'll have to be some time I don't have to crash.

I'm not with you on it being less of a worthy place to get to. But you know that about me already so....
 
Why he inherently notices story elements in Mad Max that you have to argue about till you see, and that I have to concentrate like crazy for.

I dunno that this is true. I think you're both better at it than i am. But thanks for the complements, playa
 
These are different issues you're complaining about here. Authenticity in action, however you happen to define that, has nothing to do with "how to tell stories." In fact, the stories in Jackie Chan movies are some of the thinnest and silliest of all martial arts movies whether from Hong Kong or Hollywood.

True. Next time I'll make sure to use paragraphs better. They were two different points. I was just high and rambling/venting at Hollywood.

I don't watch Jackie Chan movies for the story. But as far as kung-fu movies go and HK movies in general, Jackie Chan movies are not lacking in plot/story. That's not true. Police Story won the best film at the 1985 Hong Kong Film Awards.
 
Investigation of a Citizen Above Suspicion (1970) (Italy) Great & honest movie about a power, politics, police, & murder.

I've only seen two of Elio Petri's films, this one and The 10th Victim. But I'll say that the guy definitively has a predilection for murdering those you have sex with.:D And this weird sexual-killing dynamic that drives both films is underscored with some social satrize. In The 10th victim it was media and consumerism, while in Investigation of a Citizen Above Suspeicion, its as you said, politics, power and da polize!

Investigation is really heavy-handed though. It really is a film about super-decadent right-wingers that take an glutinous, almost frenzied joy in nailing those dirty lefties with anything they got! But the movie skids this by how oddly intensive and oddly giddy it is about everything it does. And the main character subtlety aping Mussolini in several scenes was really fun.

Plus dat score! Elio definitively knows how to put music in his films.

The Baader Meinhof-Complex (2008) (Germany) Insane true story, great acting, production... a real action movie that actually happened.

Funnily enough, when my father went to rent this movie he accidentally brought home "Baader Meinhof" from 2002 instead, which turned out to be a fairly mediocre movie. I was wondering what all the fuzz was about until I entered the video story and realized that he had brought home the wrong film. I imagine that this is what people who are scammed by Asylum films feels:D.

Honestly though... I barely remember Baader Meinhof Complex, which is extraordinarily rare for me since I tend to remember films very clearly. I remember thinking that it was just... alright.. and that the lead lady was pretty sexy.

Stalingrad (1993) (Germany) Better than full-metal jacket.

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Epic, disturbing movie, with solid acting. No romanticism here.

Stalingrad's idea of a "happy ending" is the realization that it's better to die of cold than it is to die from heat exhaustion. When that is your vantage point, I say that you present a pretty bleak worldview. :D

But yeah Stalingrad is a damn good film. If you want to compare it favorably to something -- without causing heinous sacrilege -- then I think Enemy at the Gates is a good candidate. Both are about Stalingrad but Enemy at the Gates conveys none of the horror, bleakness and realism that Stalingrad conveys, nor is it as uncompromissing as Stalingrad is.


Paths Of Glory (1957) (USA) Stanley Kubrick, well-known but often get's overlooked because it's so old.

Back in the days when Kubrick was still a young man and angry at the world, and did not care to hide said anger by conveying it through subtle themes and motifs. Almost all of Kubrick films have an underscoring of anti-authorian, the powerful are evil, thoughts, but Paths of Glory is just a middle finger to the entire establishment.

[/QUOTE]Fitzcarraldo (1982) (Germany) Not for everyone by any means but I love every minute of it. Herzog is the man. Aguirre... as well.[/QUOTE]

Honestly... it's always a bit jarring to see Kinski play someone that is supposed to be quite a decent guy. That man is the embodiement of deranged evil:D. Fitzcarraldo is great but I've always leaned more towards Aguirre.


Django (1966) (Italy) The movie that inspired Django Unchained, and about 75 other movies. Like Rambo meets

Django is just iconic. There are so many striking images in it. Italian cinema definitely had a tradition of creating visual- and atmospheric-oriented movies. And Django is a prime example of how you can use those two to markedly elevate your material. You said that Great Silence had one of the best endings ever (with is true) -- and personally I think that Django hauling that coffin through the mud, with that awesome music playing, is one of the best beginnings of all time. What a tone-setter!

I also just love how nillisistic and cruel the movie feels. Django isn't just violent, it's downright mean-spirited, and unlike violence - mean-spiritedness dosen't age. Many of the characters have their introduction by commiting some sort of increadibly callous deed. Wherever it'll be the KKK-general shooting Mexican pesants for sport or the Mexican general slicing off the guys ear just for the lulz. Even Django turns have quite an evil side - despite posing as a stand-up guy for so long in the narrative. In Django - you'll find evil in whatever corner you look in. And the gothic, almost Lucio Fulchi styled set-design definitively add to this cruel undertone.



The Great Silence (1968) (Italy) another Sergio Corbucci classic Spaghetti western. One of the best movie endings of all time

Yeah it was so great that they couldn't show it in certain countries!:D They even had to go back and re-shoot the ending so that it could be shown in those areas.:rolleyes:

But... one of the other reasons why I love The Great Silence is that it's a brillian political subversion of the western genre. I'll repost something I wrote a while ago in response to Steven Segal bringing left-wing populist trends to the action genre.

While reading your article, I couldn't help but to draw parallels to the Western genre. As said in your article, during the late 80's/early 90's Seagal blew left-winds onto the action genre, which through Stallone and Schwarzenegger had during the 80's established a predominantly right-wing orientation. And he did it through populist means! Subverting the political landscape of populist action flicks.

The same trend you could see in Westerns during the late 60's, early 70's. Up until the 60's, American Westerns had predominatly taken a relatively conservative stance in their persona. Sure there where liberal-oriented westerns like High Noon or The Ox-Bow Incident, but the vast majority excuded a right-wing slant, (ie: John Wayneism).

But during the late 60's, early 70's, this narrative was heavily subverted. There where American revisionist movies like Soldier Blue. But it was the Italians and their Spaghetti Westerns that really cranked out populist left-wing Westerns en masse at the time. With fims like: A Bullet For the General, The Big Gundown, Tepepa, A Proffesional Gun, Companeros, and The Great Silence, etc.

Just to give an example, take the briliant political subversion in The Great Silence.

The Great Silence is a movie about bounty hunters. In most American Westerns, bounty hunters where men fulfilling an important task, weeding out criminals and bandits that prevented the spread of civilisations. Bounty Hunters are basically good guys, often being sheriff's and the like. It's basically a right-wing message, people are immoral and bad, so the goverment has to send someone to bring back order and goodness to civilization. (and even Sergio Leone and most other Spaghetti Westerns presented something akin to this)

However, what Sergio Corbucci does in The Great Silence, is to put this practice into it's socioeconomical context. Criminals aren't criminals becuse they are "bad" or "evil" or anything inherent like it was in the classical Hollywood Westerns. They are just ordinary men unable to find work or pay their rent and therefore are forced to turn to a life of crime - and the socioeconomical conditions that creates these problems are orchestrated by the wealthy elite for their own benefit.

So the societal system is created by the elite to enrich them, while causing destitution to among the poor. The mass of criminality this then causes then creates the need for Bounty Hunters, whom the rich hire to kill the criminals they've themselves created through their policy. The Bounty Hunters, being antagonists, go about this business with extreme sadism and callousness, killing what are basically good and decent people that have no other alternative.

Corbucci does this to illustrate the faultiness of law and justice. The rich legally impoverish the poor, and then legally hire gunmen to kill of the poor whom have turned into criminals out of necessity. Basically, it's the old line about law and justice being institutionally designed to serve only only the rich - and everyone else (the poor, racial minorities, freethinkers, etc) suffer because of it.

And Corbucci delivers all this political commentary within the bounds of populist Spaghetti Westerns, subverting the established conservative order after his own belifs. Just like Seagal did.



A Bullet for the General (1966) (Italy) Gian Maria Volonte & Klaus Kinski in a western about the Mexican revolution! 3 awesome things in one

Definitively one of the best Zapata Westerns. It's this one or Companjeros. Great to see a team-up between Gian Maria Volonte and Kinski.

The only reason the recent Mad Max was any good was because most of the stunts and explosions were real, that guy gets it, even though he forgot to add a story.

The Serious Movie Discussion group had like a 5-page civil war about that subject a while ago. Which the pro-side won by a Cro Cop styled head kick and a follow-up G&P in the Fourth Round, which was aggrevated by that Dan Miragliotta not knowing when to stop the goddamn fight. So you better get in line and praise the movie damit!:mad:

:p

Personally though, I think the storytelling in Fury Road is superb. It's methodology is basically to streamline the whole plot through seemless world-building and telling visuals so that the thematic subtexts (as well as the action) gets enough Lebensraum to breath.

Take the theme of slavery as an example of this. Virtually everyone in the movie is in some relationship of bondage to Immortal Joe. The brides have been brainwashed into becoming his breeders through ideological-isolation. The kamikaze-boys are his "half-life" cannon fodder that he has brainwashed through religion to want to martyr themselves on the Fury Road. The "mothers" are made into living milk-machines. Furiosa is his slave-soldier. And Max himself is enslaved and used as a blood bag. Everyone in the citadel has been dehumanized into an object meant to serve Immortal Joe. He has created a world where he is the only real human, and everyone else is a dehumanized slave molded to serve his desires. And listening to the wives dialoge -- they've figured this system out. Themes like this one saturates the entire movie. It gives it an identity. That kind of consistent, thematic world-building just makes me all giddy inside.


These are different issues you're complaining about here. Authenticity in action, however you happen to define that, has nothing to do with "how to tell stories." In fact, the stories in Jackie Chan movies are some of the thinnest and silliest of all martial arts movies whether from Hong Kong or Hollywood.

I don't think that he was conflating storytelling with how to present action. I just think he bunched those two subjects into the same paragraph.

But... come on bro, by HK standards of silliness Jackie Chan has to be somewhere in the middle.:D They play a diffrent ball game over there. Just a few days ago I was watching this movie The Maidens of Heavenly Mountains with Gong Li and Bridgett Lin and it was just spastic what-the-fuckery from the get-go.

That said, take the Police Story series as an example of just how idiosyncratic Jackie Chan's style can be. It's really jarring to go from the Jackie Chan-directed Police Story 1 and 2 to the third Police Story that he didn't direct. Jackie's narrative is so intense and kinetic and scattered that it's creates such a stark contrast with the more conventional narrative in Police Story 3.
 
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The Serious Movie Discussion group had like a 5-page civil war about that subject a while ago. Which the pro-side won by a Cro Cop styled head kick and a follow-up G&P in the Fourth Round, which was aggrevated by that Dan Miragliotta not knowing when to stop the goddamn fight. So you better get in line and praise the movie damit!:mad:

This made me laugh.
 
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