Serious Movie Discussion XLI

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Honestly... it's always a bit jarring to see Kinski play someone that is supposed to be quite a decent guy. That man is the embodiement of deranged evil:D. Fitzcarraldo is great but I've always leaned more towards Aguirre.
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Nathan for you can be hilarious at times. Do you think the stores are even real? Or are they just set-up for the show?

I dunno. They seem to be. Usually the patron checks out of the idea within the first few minutes and Nathan crusades on on their behalf.
 
I dunno. They seem to be. Usually the patron checks out of the idea within the first few minutes and Nathan crusades on on their behalf.

Some hilariously awkward moments on that show thanks to Nathan. Haven't seen much of it, but it's a funny, interesting concept.
 
In the sequel, though, Ruffalo was such a beta. No sane person would've let RDJ do any of that crazy AI shit, and Ruffalo is actually close to RDJ in the brains department, but he just lets him walk all over him. It was tough for me to buy how soft Ruffalo sold his scientist character in those interactions.
I agree with your criticisms on Bruce Banner in AoU. He keeps on pointing out that what Stark is doing is wrong, or at the very least, questionable. Yet Banner still does what Stark wants him to do. Basically, he's Stark's bitch.

I only watched the trailers for Civil War yesterday, that shit looks fucking insane. I might just have to see that one on the big screen.
You should see this at the cinema. If you loved The Winter Soldier, you are likely going to love Civil War also since it’s from the same writers and directors. And based on the trailer, the tone really feels like The Winter Soldier all over again.

What's the deal with Spider Man showing up, though? Since when is he a part of this shit? Is that from the comics?
In the Civil War comics, Spider-Man was an integral part of the story. Tony convinced Spider-Man to unmask publicly in a press conference. Midway in the story, Spidey switched sides to Team Cap when he learned what Tony did to those who refused to register.

In the movie world, Sony owns the movie rights to Spider-Man. Due to The Amazing Spider-Man 2’s disappointing box office results and critical drubbing, Sony made a deal with Marvel Studios to reboot Spider-Man and re-introduce him in the Marvel Cinematic Universe. Sony still owns the Spider-Man movie rights but Marvel Studios will co-produce and have creative control on the character and his movies.

I loved that part! If Guy Pearce sucked as the villain, or if someone else had played that character and sucked, then I could've seen the Kingsley switch as a waste. However, Pearce was so good and was such an imposing villain that they didn't need Kingsley as the/another villain and so the switch worked perfectly. I loved the reveal and I loved every subsequent second with Kingsley, who I actually wouldn't have expected to have been able to play that part as hilariously as he did.
I’ve long suspected that casual viewers (non-comic book fans) would be more appreciative of Iron Man 3.

I actually liked that. It did come from out of left field, but the writing was solid and they both really sold it. And I liked that moment at the end with Jackson. I'm actually looking forward to seeing how that develops.
I’m not completely sold on their romance. Their scenes and the dialogue seemed forced to me.

Since I don't know shit about the comics, just out of curiosity, when you're saying they have to make the threats more credible, is that something that can readily be done? Are there villains in the Marvel backlog that could be Bane-like in fucking the Avengers' shit up?
Ultron is a top tier Avengers villain in the comics. Physically, Ultron is damn near unstoppable and sometimes it takes the whole team (and then some) to just barely defeat him. The movie version does not do the character justice.
 
Saw 10 Cloverfield Lane yesterday.

So far, my favourite Film of the Year, even though it slipped towards the End

Dont watch this expecting a Cloverfield sequel,it's a tense,well-acted Thriller.

positives:
-all great Performances, esp. by Goodman
-The Film keeps up it's intensity over it's running time
-The Twist
didn't have a Problem with the fact that actual Aliens landed on the Planet

-acceptable CGI for a low-budget Film

Negatives:

-some of Winstead's actions towards the end are too much of a standard Hollywood fare to me.

Her surviving the car falling from a ridiculous height.Convenient placing of lighter and whisky bottle

9/10
 
I've only seen two of Elio Petri's films, this one and The 10th Victim. But I'll say that the guy definitively has a predilection for murdering those you have sex with.:D And this weird sexual-killing dynamic that drives both films is underscored with some social satrize. In The 10th victim it was media and consumerism, while in Investigation of a Citizen Above Suspeicion, its as you said, politics, power and da polize!

Investigation is really heavy-handed though. It really is a film about super-decadent right-wingers that take an glutinous, almost frenzied joy in nailing those dirty lefties with anything they got! But the movie skids this by how oddly intensive and oddly giddy it is about everything it does. And the main character subtlety aping Mussolini in several scenes was really fun.

Plus dat score! Elio definitively knows how to put music in his films.



Funnily enough, when my father went to rent this movie he accidentally brought home "Baader Meinhof" from 2002 instead, which turned out to be a fairly mediocre movie. I was wondering what all the fuzz was about until I entered the video story and realized that he had brought home the wrong film. I imagine that this is what people who are scammed by Asylum films feels:D.

Honestly though... I barely remember Baader Meinhof Complex, which is extraordinarily rare for me since I tend to remember films very clearly. I remember thinking that it was just... alright.. and that the lead lady was pretty sexy.



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Stalingrad's idea of a "happy ending" is the realization that it's better to die of cold than it is to die from heat exhaustion. When that is your vantage point, I say that you present a pretty bleak worldview. :D

But yeah Stalingrad is a damn good film. If you want to compare it favorably to something -- without causing heinous sacrilege -- then I think Enemy at the Gates is a good candidate. Both are about Stalingrad but Enemy at the Gates conveys none of the horror, bleakness and realism that Stalingrad conveys, nor is it as uncompromissing as Stalingrad is.




Back in the days when Kubrick was still a young man and angry at the world, and did not care to hide said anger by conveying it through subtle themes and motifs. Almost all of Kubrick films have an underscoring of anti-authorian, the powerful are evil, thoughts, but Paths of Glory is just a middle finger to the entire establishment.

Honestly... it's always a bit jarring to see Kinski play someone that is supposed to be quite a decent guy. That man is the embodiement of deranged evil:D. Fitzcarraldo is great but I've always leaned more towards Aguirre.




Django is just iconic. There are so many striking images in it. Italian cinema definitely had a tradition of creating visual- and atmospheric-oriented movies. And Django is a prime example of how you can use those two to markedly elevate your material. You said that Great Silence had one of the best endings ever (with is true) -- and personally I think that Django hauling that coffin through the mud, with that awesome music playing, is one of the best beginnings of all time. What a tone-setter!

I also just love how nillisistic and cruel the movie feels. Django isn't just violent, it's downright mean-spirited, and unlike violence - mean-spiritedness dosen't age. Many of the characters have their introduction by commiting some sort of increadibly callous deed. Wherever it'll be the KKK-general shooting Mexican pesants for sport or the Mexican general slicing off the guys ear just for the lulz. Even Django turns have quite an evil side - despite posing as a stand-up guy for so long in the narrative. In Django - you'll find evil in whatever corner you look in. And the gothic, almost Lucio Fulchi styled set-design definitively add to this cruel undertone.





Yeah it was so great that they couldn't show it in certain countries!:D They even had to go back and re-shoot the ending so that it could be shown in those areas.:rolleyes:

But... one of the other reasons why I love The Great Silence is that it's a brillian political subversion of the western genre. I'll repost something I wrote a while ago in response to Steven Segal bringing left-wing populist trends to the action genre.







Definitively one of the best Zapata Westerns. It's this one or Companjeros. Great to see a team-up between Gian Maria Volonte and Kinski.



The Serious Movie Discussion group had like a 5-page civil war about that subject a while ago. Which the pro-side won by a Cro Cop styled head kick and a follow-up G&P in the Fourth Round, which was aggrevated by that Dan Miragliotta not knowing when to stop the goddamn fight. So you better get in line and praise the movie damit!:mad:

:p

Personally though, I think the storytelling in Fury Road is superb. It's methodology is basically to streamline the whole plot through seemless world-building and telling visuals so that the thematic subtexts (as well as the action) gets enough Lebensraum to breath.

Take the theme of slavery as an example of this. Virtually everyone in the movie is in some relationship of bondage to Immortal Joe. The brides have been brainwashed into becoming his breeders through ideological-isolation. The kamikaze-boys are his "half-life" cannon fodder that he has brainwashed through religion to want to martyr themselves on the Fury Road. The "mothers" are made into living milk-machines. Furiosa is his slave-soldier. And Max himself is enslaved and used as a blood bag. Everyone in the citadel has been dehumanized into an object meant to serve Immortal Joe. He has created a world where he is the only real human, and everyone else is a dehumanized slave molded to serve his desires. And listening to the wives dialoge -- they've figured this system out. Themes like this one saturates the entire movie. It gives it an identity. That kind of consistent, thematic world-building just makes me all giddy inside.




I don't think that he was conflating storytelling with how to present action. I just think he bunched those two subjects into the same paragraph.

But... come on bro, by HK standards of silliness Jackie Chan has to be somewhere in the middle.:D They play a diffrent ball game over there. Just a few days ago I was watching this movie The Maidens of Heavenly Mountains with Gong Li and Bridgett Lin and it was just spastic what-the-fuckery from the get-go.

That said, take the Police Story series as an example of just how idiosyncratic Jackie Chan's style can be. It's really jarring to go from the Jackie Chan-directed Police Story 1 and 2 to the third Police Story that he didn't direct. Jackie's narrative is so intense and kinetic and scattered that it's creates such a stark contrast with the more conventional narrative in Police Story 3.

First off, I should've stated that I have pretty radical political beliefs, and I love movies about radicals.

I haven't seen the 10th Victim. I have "property is no longer a theft", "Lulu: The Tool, aka The working Class go to Heaven" and "We still kill the old way" but the subtitles didn't burn properly and I deleted it by mistake. "Property is no longer a theft" was quite good, The main character is a banker who's allergic to money. It's all about him trying to ruin the live of a rich asshole butcher. It's like the Investigation of a citizen, but the main character is the lower-class radical, and his power comes from him having nothing to lose. It's a look into the power of the bitter man, with nothing to lose.

You can't really go wrong with Ennio Morricone, and he nailed it on "An Investigation of a Citizen Above Suspicion" and "Lulu The Tool"

Lulu is about a non-political factory worker, and what turns him from a subservient happy citizen, into an active political revolutionary, and the ripple effects it caused. In a world where political stories can't be told without an agenda, it does a great job of showing both the pro's and con's of radicalism. My grandfather got fired to trying to organize a strike, he was a miner and wanted proper masks, his fellow co-workers were afraid of the bosses and hung him out to dry. Fighting for what's right is a cold, lonely, scary path. This theme is poorly covered in a lot of superhero films today.

Baader-Meinhof Complex seems to be loved by Radicals, and anyone else just finds it decent-good. I've lent it to friends and people who are radical always love it... I just love the story. Anyone who's into radical politics surely understands how hard it is to make a change. How powerless the average human being is. Well the RAF refused to be pushed around. They used force against the rich and against the government... The Baader-Meinhof gang was so feared and misunderstood by the government that the government removed their brains for testing. Their brains subsequently disappeared. Some evidence suggests that the CIA stole their brains. It's an accurate character study, into some of the most interesting far-left radicals in the past 50 years. For those that are unfamiliar with their story and are interested in radical politics and revolution it's a great story. Were the tactics of the RAF, any worse than he tactics of those in power? Did those in power really earn their power anymore than the RAF did? It's debatable.

My worldview is pretty bleak. Especially when it comes to war. I love Full Metal Jacket, don't get me wrong. The first half is amazing, but it's really more of a boot-camp movie than a war movie. The story follows a good guy. In Stalingrad the bad guys are the good guys. It shows how the soldiers are victims of their own government/society/media. In most war movies the main actor survives, in Stalingrad they don't romanticize it, no one has a happy ending. People are left behind. The soldiers are all expendable. It's not like Platoon where's there's one or two crazy guys giving the squad a bad name. In Stalingrad everyone is both good and bad at the same time. It took the plot of "Cross of Iron" and told the story just as well, while only taking up 5 minutes of our time. I haven't seen "Enemy at the Gates" will have to check it out. I grew up wanting to be Rambo or Arnold's character from Predator. I loved guns, war, and military gear. Stalingrad just stripped away all the romance and presented war as it should be seem, brutal, ugly, cold, scary, & fucking insane.

I support young Kubrick. Power corrupts, it's a fact. I'm not going to get into my political beliefs but the whole system is a joke imo. Still, to this day, the army protects it's senior officers and punishes the rank and file for following orders. It's insanely disgusting imo. They're willing to sacrifice their lives for the good of their country and their people. Not to protect corrupt assholes who can't take responsibility for their own mistakes. Bill Mahr was fired for talking shit about the army brass after 9/11. Hollywood would never produce a movie like this nowadays. It takes all the politics out of the picture and shows the military trial from a human perspective. I loved it.

I agree the opening to Django is fantastic. The whole movie is. Even the song. Ì have a huge version of this poster, framed on my wall.
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When the KKK come rolling into town to kill him and he`s hiding behind the tree with his coffin, I though there`s no way he`s getting out of this alive. What came next, I`ll never forget. Just brilliant. The ending was brutal but amazing. I like that he left the girl behind, it was heart-breaking to see, but it showed us why Django was the way he was. Franco Nero played a bad-ass perfectly. If you ever watch the dubbed version it ruins the whole movie because Django doesn`t sound badass.

I liked the killing Mexicans for sport scene in "A Bullet for the general" better but Django is much better over-all. I should've mentioned "Duck, You Sucker" also. Another brilliant Spaghetti Western with a great score from Morricone. I saw Companeros recently and didn't love it. I was pretty tired, I'll have to re-watch it some time. Volonte is my favorite actor, Kinski is up there too, Nero can't compare with them, imo.

The Great Silence was a bit slow, but the ending and the story-line were brilliant. 9/10 the bad guy wins in real life, so I appreciate the ugly realism of it. I went to a 500 year old jail in Scotland, and almost all the prisoners were there because they stole to feed their family. One juvenile orphan spent years in jail for sleeping under a rich persons awning in a rain storm. He was in the same room with murderer's. It was very refreshing to see a movie where the prisoners/criminals were the good guys. Which is often the case in real life also.

Good write-up about "The Great Silence", what Seagal movies are left-wing radical though?

Thanks for filling me in on the Mad Max debates. I wouldn't mind reading those. I will say it was a brilliant idea to add those virgins. It many ways it eliminated the need for a story-line, but I still felt myself feeling no attachment to the main character whatsoever, or the virgins really. It was implied the bad guys were bad, but we didn't know. In 12 Angry Men it was implied the defendant was guilty, until the very end. How were we to know that this wasn't the case here...until the movie was done.

Speaking of weird HK movies with no plot: I recently watched "Meng gui da sha" aka Thunder Cops... here's the description
A police sting takes place in a haunted apartment building. The sting goes bad when a female ghost crashes the party. Lots of chase scenes involving floating heads and headless bodies.. and, oh yes.... toy helicopters. And then it gets weird...A band of Chinese elves save the day (one of them plays a mandolin)
 
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Dude, your posts are all so long i would have never noticed it was going on.

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I immediately regretted showing you that clip because without the context of knowing him and how he constantly struggles to fit in, you couldn't possibly get everything out of it.

You know I have to look shit up before I watch it. I read up on him and the show and everything beforehand, so I knew the premise.

I don't care if you end up watching it or not, but I'm positive you'll like it more than I'll like anything that's recommended to me.

At the risk of getting some oppositional defiance going on, with Hannibal on my side, I'm equally positive of the opposite.

You're mistaken that I'm defending him at all [...] I don't like the idea that it has less merit though.

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Half of Flemmy's awesomeness comes from this aspect of his approach. Why he inherently notices story elements in Mad Max that you have to argue about till you see, and that I have to concentrate like crazy for.

This is just a difference of opinion with respect to a particular artwork, not a fundamental and indissoluble aesthetic division.

And you're smarter than splitting hairs - conflict and story.

You call it splitting hairs, I call it the ontological differentiation of two different media.

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I don't watch Jackie Chan movies for the story.

Why do you make an exception for Hong Kong martial arts movies but not Hollywood blockbusters?

But as far as kung-fu movies go and HK movies in general, Jackie Chan movies are not lacking in plot/story. That's not true. Police Story won the best film at the 1985 Hong Kong Film Awards.

europe answered this re: Police Story, and that's to say nothing of the Armor of God movies or Wheels on Meals :oops:

Not saying Jackie Chan movies aren't awesome, I'm just applying pressure to some of your straightforward claims that might not be so straightforward...

You should see this at the cinema. If you loved The Winter Soldier, you are likely going to love Civil War also since it’s from the same writers and directors. And based on the trailer, the tone really feels like The Winter Soldier all over again.

I'm leaning towards it for sure.

In the movie world, Sony owns the movie rights to Spider-Man. Due to The Amazing Spider-Man 2’s disappointing box office results and critical drubbing, Sony made a deal with Marvel Studios to reboot Spider-Man and re-introduce him in the Marvel Cinematic Universe. Sony still owns the Spider-Man movie rights but Marvel Studios will co-produce and have creative control on the character and his movies.

Here's to hoping he doesn't suck.

I’ve long suspected that casual viewers (non-comic book fans) would be more appreciative of Iron Man 3.

Proved to be the case with me at least.

Ultron is a top tier Avengers villain in the comics. Physically, Ultron is damn near unstoppable and sometimes it takes the whole team (and then some) to just barely defeat him. The movie version does not do the character justice.

What about that Vision guy (lame ass name BTW)? Is he really as stupendously unstoppable as he seems to be? As if Thor wasn't already overqualified for his dealings on Earth, Vision to Thor seems like Thor to suitless RDJ. Or am I wrong in my interpretation of how crazy that character is supposed to be?
 
You know I have to look shit up before I watch it. I read up on him and the show and everything beforehand, so I knew the premise.

Reading about it doesn't get you to the same place i was in. That was season 3, and in every episode before that all his interactions go a lot more like the first guy. Nathan has nowhere near the confidence he has in that scene.

So seeing him with this bro'd out confidence is hilarious by itself, but then when it actually works on the black guy and culminates in that pride-filled bro hug, i was pissing my pants.

I just picked it cause it was near the top of the youtube list.
 
I love Aguirre and Fitcarraldo both. Both are based on real story's/people

I was able to relate to Fitzcarraldo much more than the character of Aguirre. Fitzcarraldo was a visionary with a noble goal. Aguirre was driven by greed, power, and fame. Fitzcarraldo was driven by love towards the indigenous people, and his hatred of the rich snobs. He wanted nothing to do with modern society. He realized that money turned people into assholes.

It was hilarious also, they cut the boat loose because they didn't want to anger the gods... It was ugly, but it was up-lifiting and just so different. Who the hell builds an opera house in the middle of a rain forest?

And then after watching "Burden of Dreams" and knowing what they went through making that movie, also adds to it.

Filled with great lines like "I shall move a mountain" and "respectability just bankrupted me, I belong on the outskirts with my pig" It's a giant fuck you to civilized society. Of course the lovely Claudia Cardinale helps also.

Edit: Fitzcarraldo was the first Kinski movie I ever saw (apart from Dr. Zhivago, which I didn't remember him from) For me it's the opposite, funnily enough. I have a harder time believing Ftizcarraldo as a villain.
 
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@Bullitt68

I watch Jackie Chan movies for the stunts and the fighting, not the story or script. When Hollywood movies are made with real stuntmen and stunts I enjoy them also. Deathproof for example, the action scenes were amazing. Jackie didn't write or direct "Wheels on Meals" or any of the "Lucky Star" movies. Armor of God was hilarious, I liked that script, even if the story was a rip-off.

In the rare case that a Hollywood director uses real action sequences I love it.. I gave Mad Max a 7/10 even though there was almost no storyline, just because the action looked real, and was real for the most part. It could've been an amazing movie if they put more work into the script, and spent more time developing the characters.

I loved Casino Royale for the chase scenes. I enjoyed Dirty Mary, Crazy Larry specifically for the action scenes, the script was dumb. The Revenant used CGI action but they did it in a realistic way which was awesome. Titanic and Jurassic park used a mix of good story and CGI to make a great movie. There's way too many movies that rely solely on CGI and over-the-top action sequences to tell the story. Like 2012 for example.

For an action movie to work they need to pace the action. Look at the Mummy 1 & 2. Part 2 had way more action, but it was boring because it was non-stop action. You stopped caring about whether they lived or died because you knew no matter how ridiculous there chances of survival are, you know they'll all be fine.

The best action sequence I've seen in a long time was first 25 minutes of "Journey to the West" which used CGI but certainly didn't rely on it, and they used a real set which made all the difference.

2015 was actually a good year for Hollywood. They put out some good movies this year. I'm just sick of all the American superhero crap.
 
I'll Hannibal another go based on what i read here , watched a couple of episodes and stopped , looking back i might have been watching too much dark stuff at the time and dropped it due to that , i need a balance or i get Squirrely lol
 
I'll Hannibal another go based on what i read here , watched a couple of episodes and stopped , looking back i might have been watching too much dark stuff at the time and dropped it due to that , i need a balance or i get Squirrely lol

Definitely give it another chance. I can say nothing but the highest praises for Hannibal
 
Fighting for what's right is a cold, lonely, scary path. This theme is poorly covered in a lot of superhero films today.

Well I'd say that the theme has been poorly covered in populist cinema in general, including in the past. There is sort of a McDonaldization of the very theme. People want to add it in their movies to give them some moral/heroic/exciting angle that pleases the audience -- but doesn't want to explore what it actually entails on a moral, emotional, sociological and psychological basis. That stuff is just to heavy and difficult for both the general audience and most of the directors to deal with.


My grandfather got fired to trying to organize a strike, he was a miner and wanted proper masks, his fellow co-workers were afraid of the bosses and hung him out to dry. F

Crazy where the days when basic human privileges like "wanting working masks" was considered an act of radicalism.

My worldview is pretty bleak. Especially when it comes to war. I love Full Metal Jacket, don't get me wrong. The first half is amazing, but it's really more of a boot-camp movie than a war movie. The story follows a good guy. In Stalingrad the bad guys are the good guys. It shows how the soldiers are victims of their own government/society/media. In most war movies the main actor survives, in Stalingrad they don't romanticize it, no one has a happy ending. People are left behind. The soldiers are all expendable. It's not like Platoon where's there's one or two crazy guys giving the squad a bad name. In Stalingrad everyone is both good and bad at the same time.

See... I don't think you and I see Full Metal Jacket through the same lenses. Personally I think Full Metal Jacket is even more bleak than Stalingrad. :p

While Stallingrad is about the death, misery and the chaos of war. Full Metal Jacket is about something more abstract, the death of an persons inner-life -- their emotions, principles and sense of decency.

You mentioned the word "boot camp". If we were more candid people, we would call that a "brainwashing center". That's really what it is. The conditioning that the recruits undergo in that place is designed to erase their humanistic qualities and mold them into automatons, assembly-line infantry-men, clones of each other.

Think about the methodology that the drill-sergant uses to train the soldiers. He galvanizes them with sexually loaded insults. A ton of the insults he throws at them is aimed at making them connect sex with violence. "this is my rifle, this is my gun", for example. He even orders the recruits to give their rifles a female name, and then sleep with them!

What is the point of all this obscenity, profaning, and erasure-of-individuality? It's to make them heartless soldiers with no scrupples at all. Some men like Private Pyle can't take it, and it breaks them. But most are molded as the boot camp intended. The second half of FMJ, is really about showing the consequences of this indocrination. The soldiers are all bloodthirsty, sexually perverted grunts -- with no moral qualm about shooting civilians, abusing prostitutes, or taking joy in killing their enemy. A subconcious connection between sex-and-violence is an ongoing theme in all this. The infantryman that shoots the sniper, for example, humps his hips back-and-forth in the air right after having nailed her, as if fucking her. And when Joker stands primed to excecute the sniper, what does Animal Mother say? He dosen't say "shoot her", he says "fuck her".

Joker is the only one in Vietnam who has retained some sort of humanistic qualities. He dosen't abuse the hookers or take joy in killing. Why is that? Becuse he was the only one who wasn't succesfully brainwashed at boot-camp. He resisted the indocrination. Yet when Joker is forced to excecute the female sniper, the sad consequences are that he losses his inner humanity. He recieves the "1000-yards stare" and becomes as emotionally hollow as his fellow grunts. In the ending scene, he marches in perfect alignement with his fellow troops, whistling the mickey-mouse tune alongsides them, signifying that he has become just like them. If you recall, the Drill-Sergent asked Privete Pyle in that pivotal scene when they where in the bathroom if he had gone completely "Mickey-Mouse"?, ie: if he had gone crazy? Joker went crazy in the end. That is the sadness of FMJ. Joker survived boot-camp. But he didn't surrvive the war.

And that's one of the reasons why FMJ is one of my favorite films of all time. Thematically, the first and second half follow each other perfectly. The second-act explores the consequences of what was going on in the first one. And even excluding that, it contains some of the saddest scenes in movie history, such as when Joker is forced to excecute the sniper.



Want to see a great piece of symbolism? Look at Joker's PEACE-sign on his jacket as he excecutes the sniper. Notice what happens the excact moment he pulls the trigger?




Ì have a huge version of this poster, framed on my wall.


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Though I have to say, since that is a Japanese poster, I thought Sukiyaki Western Django was pretty bad.:confused: Just to whacky and all over the place. The desicion to allow Japanese actors to speak english through the entire film was pretty hilarious though.

Franco Nero played a bad-ass perfectly. If you ever watch the dubbed version it ruins the whole movie because Django doesn`t sound badass.

Yeah the guy who dubbed him sounds like freaking Tom Hanks!:rolleyes:

I liked the killing Mexicans for sport scene in "A Bullet for the general" better

Not a subject I'd ever imagined I would be having a conversation about.:p. I think I like the one in Django better. Just came off as more cold and callous to me.

Nero can't compare with them, imo.

While I think Nero was great in Django, I've always thought that he had a really spotty acting career overall. I think that he shoulders some movies really well like Enter the Ninja (and feel free to call me crazy for picking that as my example:p). But othertimes, like in say Massacre Time or Los Amigos, he's thoroughly outshone by his co-leads George Hilton and Anthony Quinn respectively, (though Quinn is a serious heavyweigth so no shame in that instance). Though I have to admit that I have seen next-to-nothing of his Poliziotteschi output.


Good write-up about "The Great Silence", what Seagal movies are left-wing radical though?

Bullitt68 (yes that very same blue-colored guy moderating this thread) wrote some academic articles on Steven Seagal. I was writing in response to those. The articles are really good and eye-opening, if you're into academic film-criticism. Just don't make fun of that "what can change the essence of a man" speach in On Deadly Ground, he considers it beautiful.:p

Here are the articles in question:

http://offscreen.com/view/blockbuster_ideology_part_1

http://offscreen.com/view/blockbuster_ideology_part_2



It was implied the bad guys were bad, but we didn't know.


Huh?:eek:

We got a ton of stuff. A brainwashed slave-army at his disposal. Autocratic govermentship where he has made himself a God. Sexual slavery. Gross violation of Australian traffic laws. I thought it was perfecly illustrated how evilz he and his croonies where.

. I will say it was a brilliant idea to add those virgins. It many ways it eliminated the need for a story-line, but I still felt myself feeling no attachment to the main character whatsoever, or the virgins really.

What's that line that Max speaks in the beginning of the film? "I am a human being reduced to a single instinct: survive". Initally I just thought of that as one of those action one-liners that are meant to sell the film but it does speak of his character and mannerism. It also illustrates why he couldn't go with Furiosa into the citadel in the end. You don't get that way without becoming intensly emotionally traumatized. Being reduced to a single insict dosen't only affect the way he acts, it prevents him from re-integrating into society. Which is a theme that was established in Mad Max 1, and runs through all the other sequels. He really is a guy that has become so emotionally disconnected that he can't engage with other human beings. Though I will say that Road Warrior handled this angle much better than Fury Road.

And as for the brides... I didn't have trouble going along with them at all. Yeah it is basic and very streamlined but the visuals that we do get communicates what kind of an existence they are running from. Immortal Joe didn't hitch those brides with his great pick-up lines, just saying. :cool:
 
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Well I'd say that the theme has been poorly covered in populist cinema in general, including in the past. There is sort of a McDonaldization of the very theme. People want to add it in their movies to give them some moral/heroic/exciting angle that pleases the audience -- but doesn't want to explore what it actually entails on a moral, emotional, sociological and psychological basis. That stuff is just to heavy and difficult for both the general audience and most of the directors to deal with

I agree. That's why I like the old Italian movies from the 60's and 70's. They explore things on a much deeper level than you get in most if not all modern day films.

See... I don't think you and I see Full Metal Jacket through the same lenses. Personally I think Full Metal Jacket is even more bleak than Stalingrad. :p

Full Metal Jacket the first half of the movie is flawless, but the second half... to be honest I haven't watched the movie in almost 20 years. I don't remember that much of the second half. I lost interest a little when it became about interviewing brainwashed soldiers, I was watching at a friends house with a bunch of people in high school, we were drinking and smoking but I remember the first half like it was yesterday, which is a testament to how amazing it is. I'll have to re-watch it.

I wasn't trying to suggest that Stalingrad is a better movie than Full Metal Jacket. Just a better war movie if that makes sense. From what I remembered about FMJ it was half boot camp, then mostly journalism and hookers. Is it the best war movie? After reading your whole post maybe, but from what I remembered there wasn't much actual war in the movie.

Stalingrad is all war, and soldiers on the field during the war. It's a war movie. FMJ is a boot camp/Soldier life in Vietnam/Journalism/War movie. The war and the battles take a bit of a back-seat in the movie. Which makes perfect sense for the story, but makes it less of a war movie. That's not an insult, FMJ is so much more than a war movie.

Full Metal Jacket is without a doubt a better movie than Stalingrad, but it's not really a movie about war. I was also comparing them in terms of the story only, the directing and acting is obviously much better in FMJ also.

You and Bullitt are pretty serious. I was skimming through that last movie discussion thread and it was pretty terrible guys. I wasn't expected to be called out by Siskel and Ebert over here :) I also tried to keep the descriptions as short as possible so each movie and description would fit on the same line. So I didn't have any room to explain my FMJ comparison.

While Stallingrad is about the death, misery and the chaos of war. Full Metal Jacket is about something more abstract, the death of an persons inner-life -- their emotions, principles and sense of decency.

Stalingrad covered all those same elements, just without the boot camp portion.

Like Joker these guys survived boot camp, they were the trouble-makers sent to Stalingrad as a punishment for their disobedience. They wanted no part in the war, they made truces with the Russians when they could, they spared the Russian boys life even though he had valuable intel on them, they even helped him, and the boy helped the invading soldiers in return. That scene was great, they used it to introduce all the characters, and there was a wide array of main characters in the group. By introducing the characters during the stand-off they kept the tension running which turned a slow part into a exciting part. The soldiers were pissing themselves and crying. None of them were bad-asses, by today's standards. That was refreshing for a war movie.

Then, later the soldiers had to execute that same Russian kid who was stuck with them during the stand-off. That symbolized the death of the soldiers inner-self. They totally broke down mentally after that. They survived the war, but lost their humanity still, and then their lives.

In the beginning you despise them all for being Nazi's but by the end you're on the main group of characters side. That's a significant feat to accomplish. It's also rare to find a war/action movie with that much character depth.

You mentioned the word "boot camp". If we were more candid people, we would call that a "brainwashing center". That's really what it is. The conditioning that the recruits undergo in that place is designed to erase their humanistic qualities and mold them into automatons, assembly-line infantry-men, clones of each other.

Think about the methodology that the drill-sergant uses to train the soldiers. He galvanizes them with sexually loaded insults. A ton of the insults he throws at them is aimed at making them connect sex with violence. "this is my rifle, this is my gun", for example. He even orders the recruits to give their rifles a female name, and then sleep with them!

What is the point of all this obscenity, profaning, and erasure-of-individuality? It's to make them heartless soldiers with no scrupples at all. Some men like Private Pyle can't take it, and it breaks them. But most are molded as the boot camp intended. The second half of FMJ, is really about showing the consequences of this indocrination. The soldiers are all bloodthirsty, sexually perverted grunts -- with no moral qualm about shooting civilians, abusing prostitutes, or taking joy in killing their enemy. A subconcious connection between sex-and-violence is an ongoing theme in all this. The infantryman that shoots the sniper, for example, humps his hips back-and-forth in the air right after having nailed her, as if fucking her. And when Joker stands primed to excecute the sniper, what does Animal Mother say? He dosen't say "shoot her", he says "fuck her".

Joker is the only one in Vietnam who has retained some sort of humanistic qualities. He dosen't abuse the hookers or take joy in killing. Why is that? Becuse he was the only one who wasn't succesfully brainwashed at boot-camp. He resisted the indocrination. Yet when Joker is forced to excecute the female sniper, the sad consequences are that he losses his inner humanity. He recieves the "1000-yards stare" and becomes as emotionally hollow as his fellow grunts. In the ending scene, he marches in perfect alignement with his fellow troops, whistling the mickey-mouse tune alongsides them, signifying that he has become just like them. If you recall, the Drill-Sergent asked Privete Pyle in that pivotal scene when they where in the bathroom if he had gone completely "Mickey-Mouse"?, ie: if he had gone crazy? Joker went crazy in the end. That is the sadness of FMJ. Joker survived boot-camp. But he didn't surrvive the war.

And that's one of the reasons why FMJ is one of my favorite films of all time. Thematically, the first and second half follow each other perfectly. The second-act explores the consequences of what was going on in the first one. And even excluding that, it contains some of the saddest scenes in movie history, such as when Joker is forced to excecute the sniper.

Want to see a great piece of symbolism? Look at Joker's PEACE-sign on his jacket as he excecutes the sniper. Notice what happens the excact moment he pulls the trigger?

I agree about boot camp and the army brain-washing people. I'll keep all this in mind when I re-watch it. I appreciate the breakdown and your insight, I just don't have much to say about it since I haven't watched it in so long.


Though I have to say, since that is a Japanese poster, I thought Sukiyaki Western Django was pretty bad.:confused: Just to whacky and all over the place. The desicion to allow Japanese actors to speak english through the entire film was pretty hilarious though.

Yeah, I agree. I gave it 4/10. I almost stopped half-way through.


Yeah the guy who dubbed him sounds like freaking Tom Hanks!:rolleyes:



Not a subject I'd ever imagined I would be having a conversation about.:p. I think I like the one in Django better. Just came off as more cold and callous to me.

The dubbed version totally ruins it

I was laughing as I typed that, which was weird because I was typing about the KKK killing Mexicans for fun. Just a weird subject to discuss.

While I think Nero was great in Django, I've always thought that he had a really spotty acting career overall. I think that he shoulders some movies really well like Enter the Ninja (and feel free to call me crazy for picking that as my example:p). But othertimes, like in say Massacre Time or Los Amigos, he's thoroughly outshone by his co-leads George Hilton and Anthony Quinn respectively, (though Quinn is a serious heavyweigth so no shame in that instance). Though I have to admit that I have seen next-to-nothing of his Poliziotteschi output.

Yeah, he's definitely hit or miss. Even in Django, he played the role perfectly but their wasn't much depth to the role. I agree about Massacre Time. I didn't like his character in Companeros too much though his acting job was pretty good. I liked him in Confessions of a Police Captain, and 21 hours at Munich, but he's never wowed me apart from Django 1.


Bullitt68 (yes that very same blue-colored guy moderating this thread) wrote some academic articles on Steven Seagal. I was writing in response to those. The articles are really good and eye-opening, if you're into academic film-criticism. Just don't make fun of that "what can change the essence of a man" speach in On Deadly Ground, he considers it beautiful.:p

Here are the articles in question:

http://offscreen.com/view/blockbuster_ideology_part_1

http://offscreen.com/view/blockbuster_ideology_part_2

Will check out later.

Huh?:eek:

We got a ton of stuff. A brainwashed slave-army at his disposal. Autocratic govermentship where he has made himself a God. Sexual slavery. Gross violation of Australian traffic laws. I thought it was perfecly illustrated how evilz he and his croonies where.



What's that line that Max speaks in the beginning of the film? "I am a human being reduced to a single instinct: survive". Initally I just thought of that as one of those action one-liners that are meant to sell the film but it does speak of his character and mannerism. It also illustrates why he couldn't go with Furiosa into the citadel in the end. You don't get that way without becoming intensly emotionally traumatized. Being reduced to a single insict dosen't only affect the way he acts, it prevents him from re-integrating into society. Which is a theme that was established in Mad Max 1, and runs through all the other sequels. He really is a guy that has become so emotionally disconnected that he can't engage with other human beings. Though I will say that Road Warrior handled this angle much better than Fury Road.

And as for the brides... I didn't have trouble going along with them at all. Yeah it is basic and very streamlined but the visuals that we do get communicates what kind of an existence they are running from. Immortal Joe didn't hitch those brides with his great pick-up lines, just saying. :cool:

I'd have to re-watch to comment on that. I haven't seen most of the Mad Max films either. As a stand alone film from what I saw there wasn't much story at all. I wasn't paying close attention either, I wasn't analyzing it, or expecting a story really anyways, but was suprised at how little of a story there seemed to be. When they kept making references to Valhalla I figured I was missing something but I didn't care. The story didn't seem to matter, it was all about the action.
 
What about that Vision guy (lame ass name BTW)?
I can’t blame you for finding the name lame. For context, most of these Marvel characters were introduced in the 1960s and 1970s, that’s why most of their names sound goofy. Most of the iconic superhero names (Superman, Batman, Aquaman) sound silly if you really think about it.

Is he really as stupendously unstoppable as he seems to be?
In the comics, the Vision’s powers are he has super strength, flight, solar energy projection, and density control (which allows him to be intangible or immovable/invulnerable). So, yes, he is one of the heavy hitters in the comics. But writers always find ways to not allow Vision to use his powers efficiently or effectively.

As if Thor wasn't already overqualified for his dealings on Earth, Vision to Thor seems like Thor to suitless RDJ. Or am I wrong in my interpretation of how crazy that character is supposed to be?
You are not wrong. The Vision is a one-man army. He could take down the Avengers by himself. Check out this low-quality of Vision vs. Avengers (go to 13:30 mark)

 
I agree. That's why I like the old Italian movies from the 60's and 70's. They explore things on a much deeper level than you get in most if not all modern day films.

I think contemporary European Film criticism can be partly thanked for that. At the time, there was this idea that for a film to be truly great and important, it had to tackle concrete, social issues. And these voices were coming from left-leaning, often Marxists, film-scholars. The films of Elio Petri are a prime example of a guy who operated in that milieu. He made highly socially conscious films. And this trickled down to genre cinema as well. Zapata Westerns for examples are just brimming with political undertones about revolution, class-conflict and the relationship between the First World and the Third World. And unlike "serious films", populist entertainment like Zapata Westerns could avoid state censorship and bannishment, becuse they were just trash entertainment.

The downside with this type of Film Criticism is that it was narrow-minded. Masterminds of cinema like Sergio Leone for example was initially dismissed by these film scholars as simple-minded populist entertainment because he didn't explore the themes they wanted. It wasn't until Duck, You Sucker were they finally began giving him his dues, and that was because Duck, You Sucker contains political undertones, but it's odd that Leone would get this acknowledgement for a film that definitely wasn't his best. Likewise, other masterpieces like Jean-Pierre Melville's Army of Shadows was denounced simply becuse it wasn't Marxist politically. And Army of Shadows is one of the most brillian and moving films I've ever seen.


but from what I remembered there wasn't much actual war in the movie.

Haha. Yeah I guess that depends on how you define a "war movie". ;)

I wasn't expected to be called out by Siskel and Ebert over here

Man I hate Siskel and Ebert.:rolleyes: Bunch of overrated, narrow-minded reactionaries. They even gave thumbs-down to FMJ for christ sake! Not to mention other milestones like The Terminator. They where the kind of people that where so square and high-strung that they couldn't even notice the bloated, obvious political satire in films like Death Race 2000, (which I think is one of the funniest films of all time), simply becuse it came from the exploitation crowd.

Joe Bob Briggs, that the critic for me.:D He may be sleazy, crude and uncouth but he's completely lacking in pretension and ardently loves movies.


You and Bullitt are pretty serious

Bullitt is actually a professional, academic film schoolar (despite his at-times Martian taste in film). I'm just a guy with to much freetime on my hands.;)

Great write-up on Stallingrad, btw.


When they kept making references to Valhalla I figured I was missing something but I didn't care

Aww man, that kind of world-building is crack-cocaine for me.o_O Immortal Joe literally creates his own religion so to ideologically control the war-boys and to give them a world-view that justifies their kamikaze tactics. Without it, the war-boys would just look like video-game henchmen, throwing away their lives with high-risk tactics just becuse the script said so. But when you add that societal element, a religion that emphasizes death and martyrdom, their actions become justifiably human.
 
Next write-up.

So apperently the Universe conspired to make me watch Streetcar Named Desire. The bloody movie was featured every day on TCM. And then when TCM listed Asphalt Jungle as next up on the menu - guess which movie showed up instead! So I said, "geez God, I get it! I'll watch the damn film!" And... it was really good! Honestly, initially the film had me laughing. Brando was doing his whole "I am Sex - Women, Tremble at your Knees!" routine and Vivian Lee was just theater! theater! theater!:D There was an air of campy fun about it all. But, as the movie progressed, I was suckered into the drama. I kinda wished for Brando's character to develop in a more sympathetic direction - but dramas are supposed to sting from time-to-time.


Then I saw Guess Who's Coming to Dinner. Quite a good film. It's always interesting to see a movie that doesn't tackle racism from the side of some political extreme, and instead focuses on the racial-disposition of normal, everyday people. I know that Tracy was dying at the time -- and you could virtually feel that in his performance. It almost felt fatalistic. That said, the daughter came off as a bit of an airhead. It's one thing to not see colour, it's a completely different thing to act as if you're completely oblivious to the fact that everyone else does.:confused:


After this, I decided to expand on the "every Kubrick film improves on a re-watch" theory and take another shot at The Killing, which is my least liked Kurbick film (haven't seen his two first ones). It... didn't really improve. I still think its a minor great though. A very well executed heist-film with a spring of vitality to it. The "Will of God" ending is rather striking - though a bit uncharacteristic for Kubrick's style. The sexual power-dynamics on display may be one of Kubrick's little ticks that is in its nascency here.

So while The Killing didn't really improve for me, it did have the positive benefit of sending me on a mini Noir-spree. I saw The Killers, Asphalt Jungle and This Gun For Hire. I considered all 3 to be superb!


The Killers had this very cruel, gritty world-view going for it. The opening scene establishes this perfectly and keeps the ball rolling throughout. It's Citizen Kane-styled narratives seems very fitting. Ava Gardner played the dejected, strong-willed femme fatal very well and Burt Lancaster - whom I previously mostly knew from his adventure films like The Flame and the Arrow and westerns like Vengeance Valley - played the tragic hero impressively, especially since it was his first outing.

Unlike The Killers grimdark tone, Asphalt Jungle was much more about humanizing the criminals, while simultaniously not denying the cruelty of their world. It really rests on some strong, distinct characters. You really like the gang - even though they arn't excactly perfect humans. Excluding the characters, the rest of the packet reminded me very much of Jean-Pierre Melville's type of films. You have this familiar, almost cordinal relationship between cops and criminals - as well as the bank-heist scene that is felt very mych as one of Melville's "process scene". Superb film overall.

This Gun For Hire was by far the most uneven film of the bunch, but maaaaan did I love Veronica Lake's and Alan Ladd's personas in this movie. They are just a perfect screen couple and the story really exploits this fact. The entire film just had this cool vibe going for it and was super-engaging whenever the main characters was on screen. While some of the suporting cast gave a B-level performance (not the old man who did a Montgomery Burns though:D), the sheer coleness and Ladd/Lake's presences elevated the film to the same lofty levels as Asphalt Jungle and The Killers for me. Whenever feminist scholars talk about wanting more "strong female characters", I hope Lake is the one they are all referring to. And obviously Alan Ladd's gunman was an major inspiration for Le Samurai.

And "You look like you've been in a hay ride with Dracula" is a damn good sentence.:rolleyes:


Speaking of Alan Ladd, I've really liked virtually everything that he's been in. Even though he's pretty much playing himself in every movie -- that is to say: pained, and introverted. I've even liked him in stuff where he was hilariously miscast, such as in The Iron Mistress, where he plays freaking Jim Bowie of all people.:D Or in Duel of Champions, where he clearly was so hung-over that he couldn't actually act. This Gun For Hire is probably one of his most atypical performances, even though it follows this template as well. Shane is one of my favorite movies of all time so there's that too. Anyways, Rebel Without A Cause was on TV, and then I noticed this scene -- and I realized... to my great amazement... "Shit... I would totally have been Plato if I'd been a teen during the 50's.":eek:

rebelwithoutacause_013.jpg



Moving on... I saw a trilogy of various Martial Arts movies. First up is Sugata Sanshiro Part II -- the final part of Akira Kurosawa judo saga! I had seen the first one a while ago but had not managed to get my filthy paws on the second part until now. Both films are oddly uneven, partly due to missing footage I believe. It's an interesting take on presenting judo on film. Unlike, say, Cagney's Blood on The Sun, which displayed a rather realistic, straight-forward, rough-and-tumble portrait of judo-battles, Kurosawa does it completely diffrently. He employs a score of cinematic tricks and quick-edits to convey the action, often showing the various mechanism that go into making a judo-throw happen before the actual toss occures (Kurisawa also hilariously overestimates how painful a judo toss really iso_O). It's more theatrical really, with opponents often flying a great distance than what they actually should. There is also a rather odd sense of humanism on display. Even in these, his earliest films, Kurisawa actively explores the consequences of the heroes actions. He shows the pain of crippled opponents and the lamentations of relatives. Simultaniously to this, there is a lot of WW2-era anti-americanism ongoing in the Second Part (typical American are brutish, unprincipled bullies stuff). Overall, Kurosawa's amazing craftsmanship definitvely elevates both films though. You can really tell that he takes much from the silent era. He uses crowds, movement and the forces of nature to give his films dynamism and drama. Interesting that even in his first films he had this methodology nailed down.


As for the second martial arts film, I saw The Fate of Lee Khan, by King Hu. It was one of those movies that both sucked and rocked simultaniously. As is King Hu's trademark, there is a certain operatic cooleness about everything. He presents his characters and actions in a way that totally elevates the material. This is especially vitalizing to the numerous female characters in this film -- he just has an unique touch with presenting actresses. On the negative side though, the choreography is remarkably uninspired. And the entire narrative is just plagued my multiple instances of weak, action-and-consequences logic. There is especially one head-scratching scene -- that I almost think has to be a subtitle error for just how dumb it is. Basically it goes something like this.

Captain: Tell me guide, do you know the hotel's staff well?

Guide: Yes, I've known all of them for over 2 years!

Captain: What about that one?

Guide: He is the Mistresses cousin, he just started yesterday.

Captain: Aha! You said you've know everyone for over 2 years! You lie!

And then the Guide goes down on his knees and cries for forgiveness.

:rolleyes:


Lastly, I watched Champions with Ken Shamrock.:cool: Pretty fun 90's era B-movie. It did feel a lot like it's contemporaries, the straight-to VHS martial arts flicks being pumped-out at that era, with a bit of traditional-martial-arts vs barbaric cage fighting going on. I like how the movie initially focuses on the main character and mid-way through pretty much does a switchero and places Ken Shamrock in the driving-seat instead. :DDanny Trejo was animated fun as the evil CEO. The movies narrative got a bit to scattered and prolonged, especially towards the end. There is a Gracie call out that made me smile. At one time, they referenced someone they called Kathy Lee, and I almost suspect they mispronounced and intended to refeer to Kathy Long instead (whom was a kickboxing champion and movie star that was one of the commentators for UFC 1).
 
Started Mr. Robot (tv series - 1 season). It's OK, it seems like an interesting story but a lot of parts seem to fall flat. IDK, I'm barely hanging on after 1 episode.
 
Full Metal Jacket the first half of the movie is flawless, but the second half... to be honest I haven't watched the movie in almost 20 years. I don't remember that much of the second half. I lost interest a little when it became about interviewing brainwashed soldiers, I was watching at a friends house with a bunch of people in high school, we were drinking and smoking but I remember the first half like it was yesterday, which is a testament to how amazing it is. I'll have to re-watch it.

I think I saw FMJ like close to fifteen years ago. My recollection is hazy other than the most famous scenes on Parris Island and the very memorable, "You got girlfriend Vietnam," scene. I think then- and granted I was young- I had a little bit of trouble with what the whole message or point of the film was.

I don't know if it was just a message about war's numbing and traumatizing effects on people. I think of it more as a collection of great, effective scenes and I have trouble conceptualizing it as a narrative whole.

The Ermey/D'Onofrio stuff is something else.
 
Started Mr. Robot (tv series - 1 season). It's OK, it seems like an interesting story but a lot of parts seem to fall flat. IDK, I'm barely hanging on after 1 episode.

I watched the first four or five. There's some crazy shit in the next few so I suggest keep watching. I don't think it's a groundbreaking series or anything, but it definitely has some weird, compelling stuff going on.

That Malek kid really does a good job and Slater steals pretty much every scene he's in from what I've seen of it. I have to get around to watching the other half.

I did just watch the first episode of the Netflix series Bloodline. Seems pretty damn solid.
 
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