Serious Movie Discussion XLI

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How was the movie?
Incredible, personal favorite for the year so far, but thats coming from the guy who made a Refn appreciation thread. Can't for a similar shit storm Only God Forgives brought when most people get a chance to see it.
 
Yeah, Only God Forgives was dog shit.

I don't think anyone ever gave me a single reason to even consider starting to think about the idea of potentially rewatching it.
 
Yeah, Only God Forgives was dog shit.

I don't think anyone ever gave me a single reason to even consider starting to think about the idea of potentially rewatching it.
What did you just say about OGF?!?!

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I wrote a big long response to this but it was boring even for me so I'll cut it short.

I think that's a great question, but I don't think I can defend Joel's attempt to preserve his memories of Clementine as a mistake. I think he reacted too strongly to her impulsiveness when he signed up for the procedure in the first place, and that regret was going to be the inevitable reaction should he ever realize what he did. Unfortunately for him he got to watch the consequences play out as it was happening, which has to be the most agonizing perspective to have on any of one's own poor decisions.

That said, I recognize selective forgetting along with selective remembering as an essential part of character-building. That's what made early Don Draper such a strong character - his ability to shed his skin and move beyond his past transgressions, including those from just last night...



I don't like the tech because the pruning of memories should happen organically. Just like Clementine empowered Joel to reconfigure himself through his past, future experiences would have allowed him to integrate a conception of her as part of his story. I agree that these would be biased toward the positive because people build themselves out of their positive experiences - at least when trauma or other psychological obstacles don't get in the way.

There were moments where I considered telling my ex that I wished I'd never met her, but I don't think I've ever had even a second where I really, genuinely felt that way. In fact my favourite self was the one that was with her, that's what makes this so hard. If I deleted my memories I'd be a lot less miserable but I'd miss the experience of building myself up through what I accomplished with her to move beyond her and my dependency on my life with her (which isn't to say dependency is always bad).

You could say that Joel needed to delete Clementine because otherwise he'd be pulled back into an unhealthy relationship that wasn't good for him, but I'd say he needed to do that on his own and stop running away from himself. His whole relationship with Clementine was a shift out of his comfort zone where he was compelled to explore and communicate. To accept the "magic pill" solution is to go back against all of that progress.

Skipping back through it I definitely think the "reconfiguration" perspective is ambitious, but I can't demonize either Joel or Clementine enough to say that either should have deleted the memory of the other. And they did kind of get back together at the end didn't they? If only I could be so lucky :rolleyes:

God I could write that so much better but I don't want to put it off any more lol.

EDIT: Actually - fuck it - I'm sticking with the reconfiguration thing, and here's why: remember how Clementine insists a couple of times that she's "not a concept"? Well too bad, she's wrong. And in fact the version of her who leads the way through Joel's mind is exactly the concept of her that exists to him (no wonder it's so much better than the real her). Joel's development into someone able to (subconsciously) think through problems with her perspective included is part of what makes the film so great.



I haven't, but it did come up as a suggestion based on these other ones I've been reading about. Other than The Green Hornet I hadn't heard of anything else directed by Gondry.


It's been a while since I've seen it, but I'm going to make a point to watch and come back to this.

It's not all clear in my head anymore, and when i typed my last point, it was literally the first time i thought about the movie with that lens.
 
Also both Eternal Sunshine and The Science of Sleep were directed by Gondry...so that's the connection.
 
Yeah, Only God Forgives was dog shit.

I don't think anyone ever gave me a single reason to even consider starting to think about the idea of potentially rewatching it.
OK people who liked Batman vs Superman are liking this post about OGF being bad......

Out
 
OK people who liked Batman vs Superman are liking this post about OGF being bad......

Out

BvS was better tho.

All the color schemes in the world couldn't save that piece of shit.

I've still yet to hear a defense of that shitty movie aside from "uhhh...art" or "uhhh....Refn".
 
Saw two movies last weekend.

First was The Shallows. It was pure garbage. Shitty acting, shitty cgi and NOTHING of meaning happens. Just one big boring flick about Blake Lively in a bikini. No thanks.

The second was The Neon Demon. It had beautiful visuals, tense scenes, and a whole disturbing/fucked up ending with meaning. It is one of the few movies to make me feel nauseous. I know some people have been slamming the film, but in my views, it was one of the best films of the year so far.
 
BvS was better tho.

All the color schemes in the world couldn't save that piece of shit.

I've still yet to hear a defense of that shitty movie aside from "uhhh...art" or "uhhh....Refn".
It wasn't. BvS was garbage on every level. Even if you don't like artsy films, at least OGF had amazing direction, cinematography, and score.

What defense are you looking for? Its a polarizing film. I don't have to defend anything, some will enjoy it and some won't. I should be asking you to defend BvS, cause that is a complete shit film without any obvious redeeming qualities
 
It wasn't. BvS was garbage on every level. Even if you don't like artsy films, at least OGF had amazing direction, cinematography, and score.

What defense are you looking for? Its a polarizing film. I don't have to defend anything, some will enjoy it and some won't. I should be asking you to defend BvS, cause that is a complete shit film without any obvious redeeming qualities

I've made some posts about the things i liked about it (as well as what i didn't like). Shouldn't be too many pages back.

I just feel like people should have reasons for liking a movie and the things going on in it. There's style and there's substance, and no one's ever talked about that movie in terms of its substance. The best you'll get is "the style IS the substance".

Basically, the feeling i get is that the dialog, characters, whatever themes it thought it was conveying would be totally irrelevant to the people who I've heard talk about it. They like this slow, colorful style that i felt served as a distraction from the fact that the movie had nothing to say.
 
I've made some posts about the things i liked about it (as well as what i didn't like). Shouldn't be too many pages back.

I just feel like people should have reasons for liking a movie and the things going on in it. There's style and there's substance, and no one's ever talked about that movie in terms of its substance. The best you'll get is "the style IS the substance".

Basically, the feeling i get is that the dialog, characters, whatever themes it thought it was conveying would be totally irrelevant to the people who I've heard talk about it. They like this slow, colorful style that i felt served as a distraction from the fact that the movie had nothing to say.
Theres plenty of substance, but its in the details and doesn't need exposition or some generic laid out plot to present it. The history of our protagonist is revealed through scenes such as the first meeting with his mother and the incestual undertones through out.

The movie has plenty to say lol it was a story of a man who was born into a life he wanted to escape but had no way out of. It sounds to me like you really missed the point, which is the reason you've been looking for to rewatch it. Maybe watch Stuckmann's in depth analyzation before or after and it might help you appreciate the things that you think aren't there
 
I've made some posts about the things i liked about it (as well as what i didn't like). Shouldn't be too many pages back.

I just feel like people should have reasons for liking a movie and the things going on in it. There's style and there's substance, and no one's ever talked about that movie in terms of its substance. The best you'll get is "the style IS the substance".

Basically, the feeling i get is that the dialog, characters, whatever themes it thought it was conveying would be totally irrelevant to the people who I've heard talk about it. They like this slow, colorful style that i felt served as a distraction from the fact that the movie had nothing to say.
But.. but Freud yo!

I don't mind that film but don't love it. I even enjoy soaking in his aesthetic. He does some pretty wow shit to aid the beats. Not easy to economise the way he does with close to no dialogue - I do like that if you were to simply write the events of his films scene to scene you'd be surprised how much he gets done with scene intent through silence. His frame is immaculate.

It's just he doesn't bother transitioning one scene into the next with normal person logic but dream logic. In the right frame of mind it hits a certain sweet spot.

But it's also why I think he's a waster - this killer technique saying nothing. Tell me there's a central thrust to Only God Forgives beyond what you can wank out and we're going every round there is.
 
But.. but Freud yo!

I don't mind that film but don't love it. I even enjoy soaking in his aesthetic. He does some pretty wow shit to aid the beats. Not easy to economise the way he does with close to no dialogue - I do like that if you were to simply write the events of his films scene to scene you'd be surprised how much he gets done with scene intent through silence. His frame is immaculate.

It's just he doesn't bother transitioning one scene into the next with normal person logic but dream logic. In the right frame of mind it hits a certain sweet spot.

But it's also why I think he's a waster - this killer technique saying nothing. Tell me there's a central thrust to Only God Forgives beyond what you can wank out and we're going every round there is.
At least you have some appreciation for the man, but it sounds like neither of you guys took the time to reflect on the film yourself or at least look into analyzation. Refn is more than killer technique, his films central points are just told in a very out there way.
 
Theres plenty of substance, but its in the details and doesn't need exposition or some generic laid out plot to present it. The history of our protagonist is revealed through scenes such as the first meeting with his mother and the incestual undertones through out.

The movie has plenty to say lol it was a story of a man who was born into a life he wanted to escape but had no way out of. It sounds to me like you really missed the point, which is the reason you've been looking for to rewatch it. Maybe watch Stuckmann's in depth analyzation before or after and it might help you appreciate the things that you think aren't there

I'll give you credit because people don't even go this far, but saying that there's a guy in it and he has a background and an ambition isn't much substance. It's kind of a necessity for any story.

There's no statement at all about what any of this means or says about reality or the human condition, or even any kind of progress or tragic flaw in the more specific context of the character.

Not to mention there's little discernable marriage between his aesthetic and the films purpose. It's lumped together imo because the dude is an incomplete filmmaker.
 
At least you have some appreciation for the man, but it sounds like neither of you guys took the time to reflect on the film yourself or at least look into analyzation. Refn is more than killer technique, his films central points are just told in a very out there way.

So talk about that...no one ever does.
 
At least you have some appreciation for the man, but it sounds like neither of you guys took the time to reflect on the film yourself or at least look into analyzation. Refn is more than killer technique, his films central points are just told in a very out there way.

Not a fan of looking up videos or articles to have a movie explained to me. I'd rather I grow separately from my cinematic experiences, in order for that growth to inform my reading of a film.

I do like your enthusiasm for Refn. It's refreshing to see someone being positive about something they just love.

Regarding OGF: I've been accused of many things but not taking the time to break down every single thing I watch? That's a first. I broke down OGF from whatever I could muster way back, even though I didn't care for it:

http://stg.forums.sherdog.com/threads/serious-movie-discussion-xxxvii.2699785/page-16

It's here if you can't find it, and I still think it ain't worth shit but the effort I put in:

I thought it was entirely, almost glaringly obviously, a Freudian nightmare. It takes almost all his theories and shoves them into one film. Julian is the younger child with the need to satisfy his mother (sexually, subconsciously), because the mother constantly reminds him of his true home, her womb. It is hinted that that their relationship stems from the Oedipal complex - the father died, probably by one of the sons (likely Billy) because they both wanted to screw their mother, and with that in mind killed their father. According to the Oedipal complex, a son kills the father fearing they will be castrated by him for wanting the mother sexually.

The mother hence manipulates them throughout their lives. Billy becomes the masculine one. Julian more subdued. This is clear in the scene where she humiliates Julian by comparing his penis to his older brother's. Once the older brother dies, Julian now has the chance to find his way back to his mother's affections. That's why he chooses to fight (and why she watches): his innate masculinity now has a chance to shine.

But he fails. So his masculinity is fruitless. It is useless. He gives himself one last desperate chance to return to her womb when she dies by slicing her uterus open and putting his hands in them. But it isn't enough. Knowing his masculinity is as good as useless, he goes to Chang for his punishment: symbolic castration (removal of hands in this world because in this world, it is the hands that denote power, in our world men feel powerful based on their penis sizes), which he should have received from his father in an Oedipal sense.

I saw Chang as God as well, a God of archaic justice, like you did. Now that his father was dead, who better than God himself (Chang) to allow him to rid him of his masculinity?

Trying is not a problem, for me. I'll dissect the shit out of toast if it's making a point. It's inherently more interesting to discuss something that doesn't tell all (Fury Road), but it's difficult to even start with a film whose mode of function is a literal subversion of function itself. It becomes a semiotic circle jerk, which is... OK, I guess? For instance, you could easily say I'm "wrong" in my interpretation of OGF, but the lack of actual cause-and-effect cinematic language would mean we're both right (and wrong), and that's only fun for so long.

I do understand it being a personal experience. Genuinely.
 
I'll give you credit because people don't even go this far, but saying that there's a guy in it and he has a background and an ambition isn't much substance. It's kind of a necessity for any story.

There's no statement at all about what any of this means or says about reality or the human condition, or even any kind of progress or tragic flaw in the more specific context of the character.

Not to mention there's little discernable marriage between his aesthetic and the films purpose. It's lumped together imo because the dude is an incomplete filmmaker.
There is plenty of substance in many minor details you'd overlook in a standard film. People see it as a revenge film, and thats fine since films like this are open to interpretation, but to me its a character study of Julian (Gosling). For a film without much dialogue, I feel after seeing this enough times i've put the pieces together on his entire history and the struggle he is experiencing throughout the film.

I'm not sure what marriage you're looking for between the aesthetic and the film's purpose? You'd have to divulge further for me to discuss. Are you saying you just don't see a purpose to his masterful direction?

So talk about that...no one ever does.
I would love to, but if you take the time to watch Stuckmann's analyzation its pretty spot on imo and expressed much better in video form than I can do in text or conversational form. I'd post it but i'm at work (another reason it would be hard for me to get into this) but if you go on youtube and search Stuckmann Only God Forgives you'll see it and maybe it will give you a deeper appreciation when you have full knowledge of what Refn was looking to accomplish as far as the story is concerned
 
There is plenty of substance in many minor details you'd overlook in a standard film. People see it as a revenge film, and thats fine since films like this are open to interpretation, but to me its a character study of Julian (Gosling). For a film without much dialogue, I feel after seeing this enough times i've put the pieces together on his entire history and the struggle he is experiencing throughout the film.

I'm not sure what marriage you're looking for between the aesthetic and the film's purpose? You'd have to divulge further for me to discuss. Are you saying you just don't see a purpose to his masterful direction?


I would love to, but if you take the time to watch Stuckmann's analyzation its pretty spot on imo and expressed much better in video form than I can do in text or conversational form. I'd post it but i'm at work (another reason it would be hard for me to get into this) but if you go on youtube and search Stuckmann Only God Forgives you'll see it and maybe it will give you a deeper appreciation when you have full knowledge of what Refn was looking to accomplish as far as the story is concerned

Like Ricky, reading some other dude's interpretation is anathema to me, and really to the fun of this thread.

Spill your guts man.

 
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