"Seymour Koenig once told me 'Don't ever lift more than 150 lbs above your head'"

Cerebus

White Belt
@White
Joined
Jan 7, 2011
Messages
143
Reaction score
0
This was something from Dave Meltzer's latest Wrestling Observer podcast, and it kind of got me wondering. But first, a little context on the quote in the title. For those who may, or may not know/care, John Cena said yesterday that he needs to undergo shoulder surgery and will be out of WWE for around 6-9 months Now, Dave was speculating that maybe the reason for these shoulder injuries (there have been several other WWE wrestlers recently who also injured their shoulders) is that so many of these guys now do heavy olympic lifting. His belief is that stress that this low-rep, heavy-weight training places on your joints, in addition to taking bumps on an almost daily basis, is why we're seeing so many injuries.

Anyway, on my question. That background isn't necessarily relevant to my question, I just thought it would help you guys understand the statement. So afterwards, Dave goes on to say the quote that's in the title. For anyone who's not familiar, this is Seymour Koenig: https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/736x/de/b5/d0/deb5d00e9fe5d0a78b346f5c65d4cf21.jpg He was a wrestler/bodybuilder, and judging by his looks, he probably had some idea of what he was doing. Now, Dave's rant was more about things like snatches, but it got me wondering, I like to do a lot of OHP, and go well above 150 lbs. on a weekly basis. I'm also young, but Dave in his rant mentioned that he stopped training heavy around 24, and he still has a bad shoulder today from (what he believes) was all the heavy work he used to do.

So my question is directed towards guys who like to lift weights above 150 lbs above their heads on a regular basis: how do your shoulders feel? Would you say they are in good condition, alright, or messed up? And, do you think all the heavy lifting was the culprit for however your shoulders feel now? Also, state your age, if you don't mind.

Also, if there's anyone who only does high rep training for things like OHP, I'd to hear from them as well on how their shoulders and joints are holding up.

EDIT: And around what age/time-frame do you think it's appropriate to trying to set new pr's on heavy weight and taper down?
 
Last edited:
Lifting heavy over head without proper mobility and form absolutely could mess up shoulders.

Do this, go look up the injury rates for Olympic lifting, who do the lifting that this guy says is causing these injuries more than anyone.

I can't do as much OHP anymore because of injuries, but not to my shoulder. I messed up my UCL (in both arms) from BJJ. But when I was doing it, if anything It helped me prevent injury.

When I was doing Oly lifting regularly, was probably the most injury free time of my Martial arts career.
 
Aw holy fucking shit.

Weighltifting has the lowest injury rate of all strength sports, and all have a lower injury rate than bodybuilding.

For fucks sake people who do not know shit need to seriously STFU. Every study done says the same thing. When weightlifting was the rule, rather than the exception, shoulder injuries were rare. And rotator cuff injuries were practically non-existent. To this day the most common injury (statistically) in weightlifting is to the lower back. And that is a mild strain. Knee is next.

People need to learn that "believe" does not mean shit. It has just as much validity in this context as it does when some whacked-out cultist jack-off who dances around a glowing pink Christmas tree in his basement wearing only mayonnaise while chanting soup commercial's backwards in the belief that he will get to fuck the Dallas Cowboy's Cheerleaders.
 
If someone is doing a hard contact sport (which pro wrestling is, fake or not) with impacts weekly, I think looking for injury causes in their S&C regimen first might be starting the search in the wrong place.
 
Other things:

1. You cannot tell if someone knows what they are doing based on their appearance. I frequently look like I know what I am doing. Does not mean shit. And many bodybuilders appear to look like action figures (minus the huge gut), but are dumber than a bag of hammers.

2. 150lbs is a very arbitrary number. Both big Z and I regularly press weights overhead. One of us presses more than the other, you figure out who. I suppose we should both stop at the same point, despite his being over twice as strong and nearly twice as big?

3. Dave was ranting about snatches? What a dumb ass. Great movement for the upper back and external rotators. The Cuban press is an adaptation of weightlifting movement and is used to rehab the shoulders. I suppose everyone using it for this purpose should stop and listen to Dave. Possibly he needs to STFU and go back to counting PPV's.


Oh, since you asked:

Pressing of all sorts. Started with overhead. Started in weightlifting. (trained for about eight years in weightlifting before I ever benched):

Best lifts:
Press:
275
Bench:
390

Rep ranges: pretty much all of them.

Shoulder injuries: None from lifting. (I have a colossal injury to my left shoulder and elbow (and chest) but this occurred in the service, not a result of lifting). I will say that the reason I avoided injuries was because I had good coaching from day one. Your normal beginner mistakes I was able to avoid because someone I knew, in addition to being a great coach, lived a few doors down from my grandfather, who was my boxing coach. So I worked on things like mobility, position and technique, and had to earn the right to use a barbell.

So training properly there is no problem. Training with shit technique or stupid programming is a problem. Coming to weightlifting late in your lifting career (I would say that most of your WWE guys have been lifting a while) presents unique difficulties, particularly given the emphasis on BB-style training that is prevalent in wrestling. Many have injuries or imbalances that are never corrected, not treated properly and not given time to heal - just like many other athletes. Then they try something new, and become aware of injuries they had previously been able to ignore, and blame the new stimulus instead of what got them injured in the first place).

Athletes are often the worst source of training information. The only worse source is probably "journalists."
 
Literally too fuckin stupid to respond seriously.

Eric, dude, stop.
 
Pressing over 150 lbs overhead and benching over 275 lbs is guaranteed to fuck up your shoulders. Anything bellow that is safe.

It doesn't matter if you are 5'6 120-lbs or 6'3 260-lbs. Those are the scientifically-accurate safe upper limits.
 
He had been jerking 140lbs for sets of 10 minutes for years, but shortly after this video the shrapnel from his shoulders killed three innocent bystanders.
 
... when some whacked-out cultist jack-off who dances around a glowing pink Christmas tree in his basement wearing only mayonnaise while chanting soup commercial's backwards in the belief that he will get to fuck the Dallas Cowboy's Cheerleaders.


..... does it work?
 
Seriously, for God's sake, don't get your S&C advice from Dave Meltzer. Get your WWE commentary from him by all means, but get your S&C advice from... actual S&C guys.

And no, bodybuilder/wrestlers who "look like they know what they are doing" don't count.
 
He said he talked to some S&C coaches, some of whom agreed with him and some who did not. When I asked him if any of them backed up their claims with research, he has been strangely silent.

Should I get a reply, I will also ask about the qualifications of these coaches. If they are your typical MMA "strength coach" then they can get fucked. Sort of like the clown who trains Cain, for example.
 
Pressing over 150 lbs overhead and benching over 275 lbs is guaranteed to fuck up your shoulders. Anything bellow that is safe.

It doesn't matter if you are 5'6 120-lbs or 6'3 260-lbs. Those are the scientifically-accurate safe upper limits.

yup
 
I'm porkin your pork.



@Minotaurorex
 
Back
Top