SHERDOG MOVIE CLUB: Week 102: A Clockwork Orange

[Cubo de Sangre]

Yes, at the end he’s being treated as the poor little victim, but his rewards are bestowed because the Minister needs him on his side in order to be back in the public’s good graces. The Minister knows what kind of twisted person Alex is, but what’s more important to him is holding his position in office. Even though the Minister was elected by the people to serve them and do right by them, he’s actually only doing right by himself. If buying off a convicted murderer and giving him back his sadistic free will is the way to achieve that, then so be it.



I don’t think it downplays it any. I think it’s an integral part of the story. It shows he’s a product of both nature and nurture, and it leaves you wondering if his upbringing was different, would he have still been as evil? Perhaps he’d still have those fantasies and impulses, but he wouldn’t be so casual to act on them. Or maybe no matter what, he’d still be a sick fuck. Either way, I don’t think the details of the environments he was in were put in without any thought behind them.

By saying the minister is only doing right by himself makes me think you disagree with the film. At the end society was better off, having seen the error of their ways (i.e. condoning government conditioning programs).

I don't see that really. Yes, we're all products of both to some degree or another. I don't believe the message here at all to be Alex got a raw deal and that's what helped him become a sadist. The mistreatment by Deltoid is the result of Alex already being a criminal. There's no allusion to childhood trauma. What @europe1 was speculating about sexual abuse seems like a stretch. When Deltoid smacked him on the balls there was nothing sexual. Just dominance. That scene is about Alex showing smug resistance to the system, no matter the occasional abuse it tosses his way. Deltoid was a man without patience, not a perv. But he was also bumbling government who got comeuppance via the teeth in his glass. Could even be foreshadowing government's embarrassment at the end of the story.

 

[Cubo de Sangre]

To further address this. Here's an excerpt from an interview with Kubrick.

http://www.visual-memory.co.uk/amk/doc/interview.aco.html

Michel Ciment: In A Clockwork Orange, Alex is an evil character, as Strangelove was, but Alex somehow seems less repellent.

Stanley Kubrick: Alex has vitality, courage and intelligence, but you cannot fail to see that he is thoroughly evil. At the same time, there is a strange kind of psychological identification with him which gradually occurs, however much you may be repelled by his behaviour. I think this happens for a couple of reasons. First of all, Alex is always completely honest in his first-person narrative, perhaps even painfully so. Secondly, because on the unconscious level I suspect we all share certain aspects of Alex's personality.

Are you attracted by evil characters?

Of course I'm not, but they are good for stories. More people read books about the Nazis than about the UN. Newspapers headline bad news. The bad characters in a story can often be more interesting than the good ones.

How do you explain the kind of fascination that Alex exercises on the audience?

I think that it's probably because we can identify with Alex on the unconscious level. The psychiatrists tell us the unconscious has no conscience -- and perhaps in our unconscious we are all potential Alexes. It may be that only as a result of morality, the law and sometimes our own innate character that we do not become like him. Perhaps this makes some people feel uncomfortable and partly explains some of the controversy which has arisen over the film. Perhaps they are unable to accept this view of human nature. But I think you find much the same psychological phenomena at work in Shakespeare's Richard III. You should feel nothing but dislike towards Richard, and yet when the role is well played, with a bit of humour and charm, you find yourself gradually making a similar kind of identification with him. Not because you sympathize with Richard's ambition or his actions, or that you like him or think people should behave like him but, as you watch the play, because he gradually works himself into your unconscious, and recognition occurs in the recesses of the mind. At the same time, I don't believe anyone leaves the theatre thinking Richard III or Alex are the sort of people one admires and would wish to be like.

Alex more represents the unbridled id, not some reflection of society. Society is here to help tame these impulses we all have. The question the film raises is at what cost and measure.

 

[the muntjac]

By saying the minister is only doing right by himself makes me think you disagree with the film.

I'm not sure I understand what you mean here.

At the end society was better off, having seen the error of their ways (i.e. condoning government conditioning programs).

Yes, the experimental program is better off being dumped, but the Minister (the government) was the driving force behind the Ludovico technique, and he was parading Alex's "cured" results...

...until it backfired on him when Alex tried to kill himself because of the effects of the treatment. When this got out into the press, it made the Minister look bad. So in an attempt to play damage control, he issued the reversal of the effects of the technique and cut a deal with Alex to aid him in his upcoming campaign and try to gain favor with the public again.

The movie really makes the Minister (the government) look shady and self-serving because all of his actions were made as a means to either advance his poll rating or find shortcuts in the penal system to reduce costs. He didn't disband the Ludovico technique out of an act of goodness. He was just covering his ass.

I don't see that really. Yes, we're all products of both to some degree or another. I don't believe the message here at all to be Alex got a raw deal and that's what helped him become a sadist. The mistreatment by Deltoid is the result of Alex already being a criminal. There's no allusion to childhood trauma. What @europe1 was speculating about sexual abuse seems like a stretch. When Deltoid smacked him on the balls there was nothing sexual. Just dominance. That scene is about Alex showing smug resistance to the system, no matter the occasional abuse it tosses his way. Deltoid was a man without patience, not a perv. But he was also bumbling government who got comeuppance via the teeth in his glass. Could even be foreshadowing government's embarrassment at the end of the story.

I guess we just have different readings of the film then. I'm not arguing that Alex's upbringing was solely the reason he became the person he was, only that it had a hand in pushing him that way. It certainly didn't help the situation any.

 

[Cubo de Sangre]

I'm not sure I understand what you mean here.



Yes, the experimental program is better off being dumped, but the Minister (the government) was the driving force behind the Ludovico technique, and he was parading Alex's "cured" results...

...until it backfired on him when Alex tried to kill himself because of the effects of the treatment. When this got out into the press, it made the Minister look bad. So in an attempt to play damage control, he issued the reversal of the effects of the technique and cut a deal with Alex to aid him in his upcoming campaign and try to gain favor with the public again.

The movie really makes the Minister (the government) look shady and self-serving because all of his actions were made as a means to either advance his poll rating or find shortcuts in the penal system to reduce costs. He didn't disband the Ludovico technique out of an act of goodness. He was just covering his ass.



I guess we just have different readings of the film then. I'm not arguing that Alex's upbringing was solely the reason he became the person he was, only that it had a hand in pushing him that way. It certainly didn't help the situation any.

I meant that you don't seem to be on board with the idea that while Alex is a sadistic menace, he's not the greater evil in the story. The grater evil is the attempt to eliminate free will.

I agree, the politician was self-interested. I wouldn't agree that he didn't do the right thing. The public is clearly the moral authority (outside the prison chaplain of course).

Those clippings are fun because they show that not even a perfectionist like Kubrick can be perfect and that they considered throwing the author a bone by changing the name to Alex Burgess.

Is there anything about that Kubrick interview quote that you feel undermines your view on the importance of society as it relates to Alex' sadism?

 

[irish_thug]

Love that movie.

 

[Cubo de Sangre]

Love that movie.

Care to elaborate?

<funny, as I typed that a song off the movie's soundtrack just came up on random in my oldies and classic rock playlist. spooky. >

 

[irish_thug]

Care to elaborate?

<funny, as I typed that a song off the movie's soundtrack just came up on random in my oldies and classic rock playlist. spooky. >

I'm a big fan of ultraviolence?

 

[Cubo de Sangre]

I'm a big fan of ultraviolence?

 

[Tufts]

Yes, I should have added in my original post, that he does seem to be bred with a sadistic nature despite his surroundings, but his surroundings and society aren't helping him any. Maybe with the right guidance and control, he could have been steered away from those impulses, but he was never given a chance.

I feel like it would be easy to make the following arguments:
1. the wretched society Alex lived in made him who he was
2. he was evil to the core, a natural born psychopath
3. it was a combination of the two, where he was more likely to develop and act upon his inherent evil interests due to the society that surrounded him

to me, i don't think it matters why he was what he was....this isn't a story of redemption. it is a story of control.

 

[Tufts]

That scene shot on the southbank in London most obviously, the tramp beating as well and Alex living in a modern block of flats.

A suitable Kubrickian documentary on the subject from Jonathan Meades in the 90's...

Here is an interesting post on modernism in film where they say: As a movement, modernism largely rejected realism, sentimentalism and other forms of expression that were popular in the late 19th century and put a greater emphasis on subjectivity and using effects to create visuals that did not necessarily reflect realistic experience. Here is the article if you would like to read more.

https://ourpastimes.com/characteristics-of-a-modernist-film-12545688.html

In this film in particular, I see use of montages, and the symbolism of the female breast throughout would be the best examples of a modernism in film.

 

[Cubo de Sangre]

...and the symbolism of the female breast throughout

Not so much symbolism as it is that dudes like titties. And milk!

 

[phoenixikki]

When I was growing up my father had a collection of VHS's. I was allowed to watch all kinds of horror movies, thrillers, and even some softcore stuff. But "A Clockwork Orange!" was taboo. My father did well. No kid should watch this movie. It kills your innocence for sure.

 

[Tufts]

A Clockwork Orange. How do I love thee? Let me count the (more significant) ways (in no particular order).

1. Your central theme is free will and how it helps define what it is to be human. Whether or not we make our own decisions is possibly the most fundamental question in life and the answer shapes our other philosophies. Of course there’s no more compelling backdrop to frame such philosophical ground than the choice between good and evil.
2. You paint government as the bad guy. Fuck the man.
3. You take a truly sadistic character who does no good for anyone and make him sympathetic by giving him a boyish face, charm, wit, and a zest for living life to its fullest.
4. You open with a tour d’ force in debauchery. Drugs, violence, sex, more violence, sex, drugs and appreciation for music. Some of my favorite things.
5. Your masterful use of changing film speeds at just the right moments.
6. Your ability to cover the spectrum of crime, punishment, rehabilitation, retribution, redemption in a story that’s not really even about that.
7. Your alternate universe with the style of clothing and odd slang. Even without speaking it, you still gave me enough Nadsat to be curious and intrigued while always providing enough context to keep the meaning clear.
8. Your ability to use music to set the proper tone. From the first ominous note as we pan back from Alex’ face to the whimsical sounds playing as Billy Boy’s gang was about to commit rape to Singing in the Rain bringing up the end credits as Alex celebrates being cured. A soundtrack can’t fit and elevate a movie any more than it does here.
9. You oddball characters like Mr. Deltoid that add to your surreal nature. The prison warder being like an early version of Gunny in Full Metal Jacket. The preacher who represents the moral of the film. Dim who repeats the trailing bits of what he’s just heard.
10. Your symmetry of story in bringing the pre-prison characters together two years later when circumstances had changed for all. And my how fortunes had changed.
11. Your X-rating and political controversy coupled with your box office and critical success.
12. Your ability to still be shocking and provocative nearly 50 years later. As well as managing to still not feel dated.
13. Your perfect use of humble and honest narration to both further the story and help Alex win the audience over.
14. You were made by an absolute genius who is in the discussion for being the greatest ever craftsman of his type.
15. That I saw you at the age of 14-15 and have never once wavered in that feeling that you are my cinematic soulmate.

Same on #1 and 2.

I disagree with #3. Alex was never sympathetic to me. His smugness grated on my nerves. When he was pathetic and beat down, I didn't care. His evil was intense enough that I didn't particularly want to invest in his rehabilitation. I believe some people are evil. The Columbine boys were diagnosed as psychopaths after the fact. I think Alex is the same. In the book he mellows with a good government job. But he is still the same person. I don't care that he was rehabilitated for a short period. I agree with the poster who said Alex belonged in prison. I don't like this film. It makes me uncomfortable as fuck. But I agree with the idea that free will matters.

#4 I like some of these things. Not all. You can take a guess if you would like.

#5 Love the changing speeds. Love the scene of the four walking and its later recreation in so many other films like Reservoir Dogs.

#6 Yep.

#7 Its no Dothraki, but ok.

#8 This is part of what made the movie so disturbing to me. I agree that the happy soundtrack made the violent visuals even more vile, while the incongruity of the choices highlighted the acceptability of the behavior. Effective directive choices but not enjoyable to me. #9 Dug the prison warden.

#10 Ouroboros if you will!

#11 I do love me some controversy. I can't imagine what it would feel like to create a film that triggered so many copycat crimes though. Makes me wonder if Kubrick would have made it had he had the choice to go back in time.

#12 Same. Bothered the shit out of me the first time I watched it on a VHR tape that was recorded from the back of a movie theatre. I was a teenager then and did not really give a shit about much about anything outside of my immediate reality. Yet I remember it still really bothered me. I think it was the casual nature of the violence portrayed. Even back then I understood that it is better to live in a world where there is a causal relationship to violence. Something with a cause can be fixed. Something that casual cannot. As an adult who is aware of just how evil people can be, I am much more horrified watching this film now.

#13 ok

#14 ok

#15 Get a room! Your sammich making wife is going to be jealous!

 

[Tufts]

Not so much symbolism as it is that dudes like titties. And milk!

True.....and if you would like to delve past the nipple, I suggest you read:

https://the-artifice.com/a-clockwork-orange-representation-female-body/

 

[moreorless87]

Interesting that "this film made me uncomfortable" seems to be reason enough for "I didn't like it", a lot of my favourite films do the former.

You could argue to some degree the film(and previously book) is actually playing around with the standards of fiction, pushing against the typical focus on getting the audience to empathise with the protagonist. Politically I think it has a very cynical eye all round, the environment that creates Alex, the cheap fix of the cure and then both sides of the political spectrum who just want to use him for their own ends and don't really care about either his wellbeing or indeed that he's still a dangerous sociopath.

I think you could argue that this films biggest influence was actually the soundtrack. Kubrick basically creates the idea of using well known classical music in an ironic fashion, using it in scenes that go against its intended tone. That style has become so popular since that it would now be very hard to use someone like Beethoven straight in a soundtrack.

 

[Cubo de Sangre]

...this isn't a story of redemption

It's redemption in the book (as far as free will is concerned), you're just too cynical to project a happy ending here.

Same on #1 and 2.

I disagree with #3. Alex was never sympathetic to me. His smugness grated on my nerves. When he was pathetic and beat down, I didn't care. His evil was intense enough that I didn't particularly want to invest in his rehabilitation. I believe some people are evil. The Columbine boys were diagnosed as psychopaths after the fact. I think Alex is the same. In the book he mellows with a good government job. But he is still the same person. I don't care that he was rehabilitated for a short period. I agree with the poster who said Alex belonged in prison. I don't like this film. It makes me uncomfortable as fuck. But I agree with the idea that free will matters.

#4 I like some of these things. Not all. You can take a guess if you would like.

#5 Love the changing speeds. Love the scene of the four walking and its later recreation in so many other films like Reservoir Dogs.

#6 Yep.

#7 Its no Dothraki, but ok.

#8 This is part of what made the movie so disturbing to me. I agree that the happy soundtrack made the violent visuals even more vile, while the incongruity of the choices highlighted the acceptability of the behavior. Effective directive choices but not enjoyable to me. #9 Dug the prison warden.

#10 Ouroboros if you will!

#11 I do love me some controversy. I can't imagine what it would feel like to create a film that triggered so many copycat crimes though. Makes me wonder if Kubrick would have made it had he had the choice to go back in time.

#12 Same. Bothered the shit out of me the first time I watched it on a VHR tape that was recorded from the back of a movie theatre. I was a teenager then and did not really give a shit about much about anything outside of my immediate reality. Yet I remember it still really bothered me. I think it was the casual nature of the violence portrayed. Even back then I understood that it is better to live in a world where there is a causal relationship to violence. Something with a cause can be fixed. Something that casual cannot. As an adult who is aware of just how evil people can be, I am much more horrified watching this film now.

#13 ok

#14 ok

#15 Get a room! Your sammich making wife is going to be jealous!

Thanks for your orderly and detailed response. Please allow me to narrow the discussion to our points of disagreement.

#3. You not liking the film because it makes you uncomfortable is sad to hear. I love films that do that and recommend them in conversation. I just don't tend to watch them repeatedly. If films don't make you feel something they're worthless.

#8 If the music mixed with the imagery made you uncomfortable then the film was doing its job.

#11 I'd like to think he'd have still made it. What artist wouldn't (deep down) like to incite that kind of passion?

#12 If the violence wasn't somehow distanced from the audience then it wouldn't have worked. Sure, the conceptual brutality is there, but Kubrick never makes it graphic. Take for example the scene where cat-lady dies. No blood on the phallus or Alex' clothing. What we get is the crazy mouth art. Which, as an aside, makes me wonder if Oliver Stone patterned much of what he did with Natural Born Killers after A Clockwork Orange.

#15 I give my sammich-maker more dick than she can handle so complaints ring a little hollow.

True.....and if you would like to delve past the nipple, I suggest you read:

https://the-artifice.com/a-clockwork-orange-representation-female-body/

Thanks. But this really just serves to validate the already established fact that dudes like pussy. This movies is about Alex and his viewpoint. There's other movies suited to highlight the feminist perspective. This isn't one of them. There's lots of issues the film doesn't deal with. Makes most sense to focus on those it does.

 

[Tufts]

It's redemption in the book (as far as free will is concerned), you're just too cynical to project a happy ending here.




Thanks for your orderly and detailed response. Please allow me to narrow the discussion to our points of disagreement.

#3. You not liking the film because it makes you uncomfortable is sad to hear. I love films that do that and recommend them in conversation. I just don't tend to watch them repeatedly. If films don't make you feel something they're worthless.

#8 If the music mixed with the imagery made you uncomfortable then the film was doing its job.

#11 I'd like to think he'd have still made it. What artist wouldn't (deep down) like to incite that kind of passion?

#12 If the violence wasn't somehow distanced from the audience then it wouldn't have worked. Sure, the conceptual brutality is there, but Kubrick never makes it graphic. Take for example the scene where cat-lady dies. No blood on the phallus or Alex' clothing. What we get is the crazy mouth art. Which, as an aside, makes me wonder if Oliver Stone patterned much of what he did with Natural Born Killers after A Clockwork Orange.

#15 I give my sammich-maker more dick than she can handle so complaints ring a little hollow.







Thanks. But this really just serves to validate the already established fact that dudes like pussy. This movies is about Alex and his viewpoint. There's other movies suited to highlight the feminist perspective. This isn't one of them. There's lots of issues the film doesn't deal with. Makes most sense to focus on those it does.

I agree that artists would like to inspire passion. I don't think the violence incited by this movie is a passionate inspired response to stimuli. I think it is the result of poor character taking advantage of an opportunity. It is nothing that the perps or Kubrick should be proud of. I personally certainly do not see rape as a passionate act. And randomly beating people and looting isn't passionate in my book either.

I do agree this is a good movie and has sparked a lot of interesting discussion. Much like you, I am able to appreciate a disturbing movie, or recognize a boring movie as excellent (like the most recent Blade Runner). I would usually not choose to rewatch them though. So touche.

 

[moreorless87]

I wouldn't say the film is shying back from being graphic in what it shows but more showing it in a certain fashion, I mean something like the assasult of the author and the rape of his wife is pretty high up the list of disturbing cinema scenes for me. I think the intension in the first half of the film is more to show Alex's mindset, the whole film feels like a larger than life psychedelic experience and I think the decision to not show much blood is due to that potentially bringing things down to earth.

 

[Cubo de Sangre]

I think you could argue that this films biggest influence was actually the soundtrack.

Music is paramount in this film. Not only in the mood but in how it drives his own destruction. Music drove the plot and added great symbolism, as evidenced by the following.

• Alex Clubbed dim at the milk bar for being rude to good singing.
• Clubbed Georgie Boy's balls and cut Dim's hand after being inspired by music from some apartment.
• Got hit with a Beethoven bust by cat-lady that lead to him committing homicide and being incarcerated.
• Freaked out (for the only time in the movie) when he realized he's being conditioned against lovely, lovely Ludwig Van.
• Inadvertent conditioning made him want to snuff it.

 

[moreorless87]

Music is paramount in this film. Not only in the mood but in how it drives his own destruction. Music drove the plot and added great symbolism, as evidenced by the following.

• Alex Clubbed dim at the milk bar for being rude to good singing.
• Clubbed Georgie Boy's balls and cut Dim's hand after being inspired by music from some apartment.
• Got hit with a Beethoven bust by cat-lady that lead to him committing homicide and being incarcerated.
• Freaked out (for the only time in the movie) when he realized he's being conditioned against lovely, lovely Ludwig Van.
• Inadvertent conditioning made him want to snuff it.

You could argue that this played into the films general criticism of the excessive inidividualism of the era by actually looking back to its and its roots in 19th century existentialism with someone like Schopenhauer claiming that music(noteble using music that existed by that era and giving a modern connection with the use of electronic interpretations) was the highest form of art. Alex as we meet him is basically an ubermensch pushed entirely towards the selfish and the petty rather than a glorious example to society.