SHERDOG MOVIE CLUB: Week 130 - Embrace of the Serpent

Nobody embraced any fucking Serpents, what the fuck is this shit...?

Embrace of the Serpent is an almost magical experience. It's difficult to put down in words what it did well, it just worked, captivated and hypnotized. The jungle itself, plus the Amazon river filmed in black and white was pretty much aesthetically perfect.

In particular I enjoyed the constent threat of violence. Reflecting now whilst I type this, I'm a little uncomfortable finding so many unhappy images from the film so entertaining. As others mentioned above, the film is homage to the world left behind and replaced with concrete.

Whilst I enjoyed the wholly original, simple narrative, there was something missing. I would have preferred more interaction between my boy Karamakate and either of his two pals riding shotgun. Guerra missed a trick by not having his main characters interact and react to each others worldly differences.

Really enjoyed it though, 2 hours flew by. Will have to watch Los Viajes Del Viento and La Sombra Del Caminante.

I think there was plenty of little things - the way that Manduca was dressed, Karamakate laughing at Theo's sentimentality towards his wife when he was dictating the letter, lambasting both white men's obsession with their 'things', or even just the little scenes were the two men show him what's in their books and photographs. Neither Theo or Evan are complete newcomers to the Amazon, they are familiar with the place and it's peoples to some extent, of course as Western outsiders, but nevertheless they speak the language and have been there for a long time conducting their research. Similarly, Karamakate is familiar with European culture, after all he also spent part of his childhood in the mission to the point where he is capable of quoting some of the bible. It makes sense that they would not astounded by each others differences, although they are obviously there, so I think subtle conversations and interactions like those make more sense than complete bewilderment.
 
Nobody embraced any fucking Serpents, what the fuck is this shit...?

If you think that's bad, when it first came out I was struggling to find a way to watch, I found a decent quality torrent (it hadn't been released legally here yet) but the subtitles appeared to have been auto-generated from google translate or some shit, according to the title card I was about to watch "Hug-Snake" lmao

Embrace of the Serpent is an almost magical experience. It's difficult to put down in words what it did well, it just worked, captivated and hypnotized. The jungle itself, plus the Amazon river filmed in black and white was pretty much aesthetically perfect.

Agreed, it is a magical experience. Rewatching it this time makes it the fourth time I have seen it since it came out in 2016 and I am utterly transfixed every time.
 
This image was not even blocked at my high school yet I can't look up a gossip site.
Please do not post nudity of any kind on here.
 
Theo -- meanwhile -- with his anthropologist mindset, thinks it more important to "preserve" the tribes way of living, than teaching them new skills. He is deadset on not influencing the Indians to much, while Karamakate has the Indian mindset about survavability.

My reaction was mostly driven by what I perceived as an intense reaction on Theo's part. This was were he became the most upset in the movie (except later when he attacked the fish). The angry reaction felt fear driven to me. I do like your point here, though. In a sense, Theo has the luxury of deciding for the indigenous people that they do not need to know since his civilization already does....Whereas Karamakate has to be practical. He has seen how technology has impacted his people and realizes there is no safety in the old ways.
 
Isn't it imposing things on your brain? You introduce a foregin substance that messes with your nerves and synapses. To me, that seems not so much as "opens us" as it is manipulating your brain.

Well we do only use a small percentage of our brains. Drugs supposedly can increase access to parts that we don't use. I'm not really sure where I stand on this, since I haven't experimented with anything hallucinogenic. The deep thoughts I have had while under the influence sometimes have stood up after, a lot of times they don't. However, I have known a fair number of people who say they have experienced enlightenment with hallucinogens, so I don't know.
 
Please do not post nudity of any kind on here.

Sorry. Was making a point. Glad to see Sherdog has higher standards than my high school and the firewalls that are supposed to block all nudity.
 
Well we do only use a small percentage of our brains. Drugs supposedly can increase access to parts that we don't use. I'm not really sure where I stand on this, since I haven't experimented with anything hallucinogenic. The deep thoughts I have had while under the influence sometimes have stood up after, a lot of times they don't. However, I have known a fair number of people who say they have experienced enlightenment with hallucinogens, so I don't know.

They certainly make connections between different parts of the brain which don't normally interact and in that sense it offers a shift in perspective, different ways of looking at things....speaking as someone who has done acid a few times I have never experienced anything like 'enlightenment' (and I don't believe you can really experience enlightenment, in the sense it is usually used...ie. borrowed from Buddhism, on drugs) but it does really instil a sense of childlike wonder and a general feeling of Oneness. So I don't think it's a stretch to say to say that some of the same parts of the brain might be firing on psychoactive substances as when various religious figures describe mystical experiences. In the same vein I think you can have some thoughts and insights on these drugs which can lead to lasting and profound change. Of course it's not a magic cure either.

In my opinion, there is a reason so many cultures all across the globe have histories of 'psychoactive substance' use as part of their religious and spiritual practices. I think sometimes there is a lot of wishy-washy nonsense you hear from self-professed 'pyschonauts', or people simply looking for a good time and trying to justify it . Personally, I am under no illusions, I do acid because it is fun, but I think it is still a genuinely a profound experience, and in the right context/framework and with the right intentions (ie. the things provided by native religious systems) I think there could certainly be something valuable which can be gained from substances like that. Particularly, when we are talking stuff as potent as ayahuasca (Banisteriopsis caapi).
 
Well we do only use a small percentage of our brains. Drugs supposedly can increase access to parts that we don't use. I'm not really sure where I stand on this, since I haven't experimented with anything hallucinogenic. The deep thoughts I have had while under the influence sometimes have stood up after, a lot of times they don't. However, I have known a fair number of people who say they have experienced enlightenment with hallucinogens, so I don't know.

Idk about enlightenment but it'll make you think different than normal. Mushrooms always trip me out in the way they make you think cuz its not my normal way of thinking. Shit last too long for me though my friends would be done tripping and I'd start freaking out cuz it didn't wear off.
 
Idk about enlightenment but it'll make you think different than normal. Mushrooms always trip me out in the way they make you think cuz its not my normal way of thinking. Shit last too long for me though my friends would be done tripping and I'd start freaking out cuz it didn't wear off.

Shit I thought shrooms only lasted a few hours (never done them), definitely don't take acid in that case it lasts 8-12 hours total.
 
Shit I thought shrooms only lasted a few hours (never done them), definitely don't take acid in that case it lasts 8-12 hours total.

Ive done both. Shrooms felt longer (it wasnt) but it felt like it.
 
As promised, I finally got around to this one. Snagged a Blu-ray from my library. It looked beautiful, although like Tufts and europe I'm a bit baffled as to why you'd shoot such a lush environment in B&W. Notwithstanding some sort of thematic point about viewing things from a black-and-white perspective, I think it's aesthetically indefensible. Don't really have much to say about the experience itself. Very slow-moving - I was constantly checking the display to see how much time was left, and the two hours total felt more like three - but it had its moments. It was thought-provoking but at the expense of being entertaining. It kind of felt like the cinematic equivalent of reading a cultural studies essay. As many people have said, the highlight of the film was definitely the character of Karamakate. But I didn't really feel like I got to know the man or what made him tick. He was at least an enjoyable guide through the film. Not bad, in the sense that I wasn't hating the experience or cursing Rimbaud, but also not great, in the sense that I'll never feel compelled to watch this again.

While not the type of film I'd go looking to be entertained by, it was a Helluva flick. Well done. Thought provoking. Acting seemed good. Memorable overall. Two thumbs up.

Got a little dark there when faux-Jesus got cannibalized. :eek:

Shit, that's when it lightened up and got funny. That fucking wackadoodle running around with his crown of thorns and his paper bag KKK minions was a riot. One of the most succinct and hilarious send-ups of what religion is :D

And memory is certainly a theme in this movie. We hear Theo say about his possessions “They are not just things. They are my bond to Germany. They are the proof of my studies. Nobody will believe me without them.” It is ironic that it was his diaries that allowed this movie to be made as he died in the jungle. Karamakate tried to keep his memories alive by recording images on the wall, and it wasn’t enough. He had to journey back to remember.

That was one of the bits that bugged me. You can't bitch about how "insane" white people are for giving a shit about the possessions that connect them to the past and cry yourself to sleep over the fact that you lost your connection to the past: The explanation for the "insane" choice to preserve one's possessions is precisely in order to avoid having to cry oneself to sleep over the fact that one lost one's connection to one's past. Memory isn't a steel vault nor is it embedded in "Nature" for us to "listen to" whenever we want. Artifacts connect us to the past, they act as veritable time machines. That's the whole fucking point.

They should've hit that note harder rather than leave hanging the implication that Karamakate's way was more "authentic" or what have you.

That in itself is a very condescending statement and harkens back to that main cultural study question: How do you study other cultures without changing them? I always ascribed to the belief that you can’t.

This isn't a personal attack on you, but this leads me to observe that I think it's more indicative of the stupid "damned if you do, damned if you don't" traps in which such "progressive" thinking often results. If the "white man" downplays old cultural ways in favor of "Western technology," then he's an "imperialist," but if he downplays technology in favor of old cultures, then he's a condescending "Orientalist." It's a lose-lose situation: If you're white, you just have to accept the fact that everything you do and say is wrong.

As Karamakate wisely said early on (in reference to guns but applicable to so much more): “All your science only leads to violence.”

Again, this isn't a personal attack on you, but this is more bullshit. That's not all that science has given the world. And anyone who genuinely gripes about ignorant shit like that while typing on a computer or using an iPhone is the worst kind of ungrateful hypocritical ignoramus.

Theo was childishly trusting every time he got blown.

As men that's just a leap of faith we've learned we have to take.

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One of my favorite JRE episodes was with Dennis McKenna. He told how he and his brother Terence went for an expedition 1971 to Colombian Amazon to find the native version of DMT. Instead they run into very potent shrooms, which they started eating on daily basis in increasing doses until they become telephatic...

Terence later came up with the stoned ape theory which argued, that the evolutionary leap of mankind was not caused by a monolith but psilocybin. It’s a good theory.

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So is his challachanqui-ess because of his isolationism or because of what happened to his people? The movie never really elaborates on this. But it seems like a possible, even likely, scenario.

Yeah, I was unclear on that, as well. At first, especially when he breaks down and cries about forgetting everything, it seemed like a pretty straightforward dementia issue. The dude was old and his mind was going. But way too much shit came back way too fast and way too clearly. I think his memories just went "dormant" in a weird way resultant from his self-imposed isolation. But that there was never any real commentary on what was going on with him is one of the film's failings on the levels of narrative and character.

So... are those fanatics supposed to be the same youths Karamakate fist encountered? We get no inclination of this except that it's the same place they visit.

That's what I was thinking, but, again, the lack of any explicit commentary left me confused and feeling short-changed.

To me, the brilliance of the scene is more Karamakate's counter-argument "People have a right to knowlage."

Karamakate has no problem with this. People have a right to new knowlage, knowlage is something that should be shared. Living in the jungle is a matter of survival against the elements, so sharing knowlage is important to do, since it improves the survivability of everyone.

Theo -- meanwhile -- with his anthropologist mindset, thinks it more important to "preserve" the tribes way of living, than teaching them new skills. He is deadset on not influencing the Indians to much, while Karamakate has the Indian mindset about survavability.

Another example of Karamakate's hypocrisy and that weird kind of reverse racism that's somehow sanctioned and often even encouraged by the most progressive people: His people have a right to new (to white people's) knowledge (the compass) but white people don't have a right to new (to his people's) knowledge (yakruna).

I've always found it weird that drug-enthustiasts say that drugs "opens our brain".

Isn't it imposing things on your brain? You introduce a foregin substance that messes with your nerves and synapses. To me, that seems not so much as "opens us" as it is manipulating your brain.

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I love this film because of the way it takes on the 'journey down river' story, particularly the likes of Fitzcarraldo and Aguirre but inverts the narrative. Those films tackle some of the horrors of colonialism, but it is from a white characters point of view, and often the Amazon is reduced to nothing more than a place where Europeans go mad (although a different river, this is also a criticism levelled at Conrad's Heart of Darkness).

So unfair. It's also a place where Jennifer Lopez and Ice Cube overcome Jon Voight and an anaconda.

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Talk about embracing a serpent, amirite?

It is very sad to think of all the local knowledge, traditions, stories and so on that were destroyed. Essentially that's the crux of the film, the loss of native cultures.

Maybe this is my white privilege talking, but you can't make an omelette without breaking a few eggs. Far from discussing cost-benefit ratios and truly exploring the nuances of such thorny issues as this, the cost side is amplified and it's just one huge brush with which the "Progress is code for EVIL!" picture is painted.

Of course, the sudden shift to colour during the final 'psychedelic' scene is also more impactful after we have been 'starved' of colour for the rest of the film. In that sense it seems to be drawing influence from two things in my opinion. Obviously the actual sequence itself bears more than a passing resemblance to the 'stargate' sequence from Kubrick's 2001, while the overall effect of black and white for the whole film suddenly shifting into bright colour made me think of the religious epiphany at the end of Tarkovskys Andrei Rublev

Beat me to both references ;)
 
Well we do only use a small percentage of our brains. Drugs supposedly can increase access to parts that we don't use. I'm not really sure where I stand on this, since I haven't experimented with anything hallucinogenic. The deep thoughts I have had while under the influence sometimes have stood up after, a lot of times they don't. However, I have known a fair number of people who say they have experienced enlightenment with hallucinogens, so I don't know.

We don't "only use a small part of our brain". We use only portions at any one time, and drugs can influence the spread of activity. But evolution is conservative - we wouldn't all have big chunks of dense cortical matter if it weren't somehow functional.

"Opening your mind" refers to the perceived metaphorical expansion of subjective experience. It could be done whether the neurology corresponded to some kind of "opening" or not.

Congrats on finally getting this nominated @Rimbaud82
 
"Opening your mind" refers to the perceived metaphorical expansion of subjective experience. It could be done whether the neurology corresponded to some kind of "opening" or not.

All things being equal, if I'm going to have my mind opened, I'd prefer it be done by an alien baby coming out of a guy's stomach.

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They should've hit that note harder rather than leave hanging the implication that Karamakate's way was more "authentic" or what have you.

I didn't get that impression at all. To me, it seemed like a genuine attempt by a man of one culture trying to explain himself to a man of a completely different culture. All of Theo's assertions seem heartfelt and correct. To me, the message seemed more that our understanding of "memories" or what have you are based on our cultural preconceptions, rather than one is inherently superior or what-have-you.

And the movie sort-of proves Theo correct. Despite him dying, his writing made it back to Europe. As the epilogue says, the writings of Theo are some of the sole-remaining sources we have about extinct cultures. Without them -- their names would be forgotten forever. That seems like a pretty powerful congratulation of Western memorabilia to me on the movies part.

Again, this isn't a personal attack on you, but this is more bullshit. That's not all that science has given the world. And anyone who genuinely gripes about ignorant shit like that while typing on a computer or using an iPhone is the worst kind of ungrateful hypocritical ignoramus.

To be fair, I think we're supposed to take the "all white science leads to violence" statement more as an implication of Karamakate life-experience rather than some absolutist statement. Considering that his interaction with whites up until Theo seems to have been of the brutalist colonialism variety, one can hardly fault him for coming to such a conclusion. Manduca meanwhile (a reasonable character) clearly disagrees with him, saying that Theo has done more for their people than Karamakate ever has, and by implication saying that they need to engage with white and white society to survive and prosper.

I think his memories just went "dormant" in a weird way resultant from his self-imposed isolation.

Seems resonable.

Another example of Karamakate's hypocrisy and that weird kind of reverse racism that's somehow sanctioned and often even encouraged by the most progressive people: His people have a right to new (to white people's) knowledge (the compass) but white people don't have a right to new (to his people's) knowledge (yakruna).

But the film itself reverses that proposition in the end. Theo deserved the yakruna but didn't get it. Evan didn't but got it anyways. Karamakate's life-experience has changed his mind, it's better to be hopeful about people and hope they learn (even dishonest ones like Evan) than simply disregard good ones out of blind race hatred (as he did with Theo).

So unfair. It's also a place where Jennifer Lopez and Ice Cube overcome Jon Voight and an anaconda.

Karamakate speech about the "Great Anaconda" was clearly foreshadowing.:cool:
 
I didn't get that impression at all. To me, it seemed like a genuine attempt by a man of one culture trying to explain himself to a man of a completely different culture. All of Theo's assertions seem heartfelt and correct.

I don't know if I'm going to be able to get at the nuance that I want to get at, but I'm going to try: I think that you're right here. It does seem like "a genuine attempt by a man of one culture trying to explain himself to a man of a completely different culture" and all of Theo's assertions do seem "heartfelt and correct." The problem that I had was that it didn't feel to me that the filmmaker was on Theo's side, and, since I think that Theo was right, that left me feeling that the filmmaker was pulling the film away from Theo and from what's right.

Maybe that's all in my head. Maybe I'm dealing with my PhD PTSD and flashing back to frustrating cultural studies seminars and unfairly assuming that viewers won't be able to identify what Theo was saying as genuine, heartfelt, and correct.

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To me, the message seemed more that our understanding of "memories" or what have you are based on our cultural preconceptions, rather than one is inherently superior or what-have-you.

This seems like a contradiction. How can you hold that Theo was correct on the one hand - which is to say, that Theo's position was superior - and hold that "cultural preconceptions" preclude talk of right/wrong or superior/inferior? Either Theo's right, which means that his position is superior and should be Karamakate's position, or he's wrong, which means that his position is inferior and he should embrace Karakamate's superior position.

And the movie sort-of proves Theo correct. Despite him dying, his writing made it back to Europe. As the epilogue says, the writings of Theo are some of the sole-remaining sources we have about extinct cultures. Without them -- their names would be forgotten forever. That seems like a pretty powerful congratulation of Western memorabilia to me on the movies part.

But it doesn't emphasize his correctness. All of this is just left hanging there. All the anti-Western shit is hit with all the might that they could muster while any pro-Western shit is grudgingly included like it's a regrettable concession that has to be made but when no one's looking.

Again, maybe this is just in my head and symptomatic of my anti-PC rage. I'm not denying that that's a possibility. But this movie had my PC Spidey Sense going crazy.

To be fair, I think we're supposed to take the "all white science leads to violence" statement more as an implication of Karamakate life-experience rather than some absolutist statement.

Tell that to @Tufts and @GSPSAKU :oops:

But the film itself reverses that proposition in the end. Theo deserved the yakruna but didn't get it. Evan didn't but got it anyways. Karamakate's life-experience has changed his mind, it's better to be hopeful about people and hope they learn (even dishonest ones like Evan) than simply disregard good ones out of blind race hatred (as he did with Theo).

But, again, it's not emphasized. We just get a 30-second 2001 ripoff, a quick post-high walk to the river, and a fade to black. It's half-hearted at best.

Karamakate speech about the "Great Anaconda" was clearly foreshadowing.:cool:

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Maybe that's all in my head. Maybe I'm dealing with my PhD PTSD and flashing back to frustrating cultural studies seminars

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This seems like a contradiction. How can you hold that Theo was correct on the one hand - which is to say, that Theo's position was superior - and hold that "cultural preconceptions" preclude talk of right/wrong or superior/inferior? Either Theo's right, which means that his position is superior and should be Karamakate's position, or he's wrong, which means that his position is inferior and he should embrace Karakamate's superior position.

I'm saying that Theo is right. Karakamate is ignorant in dissing his stuff. My statement was more on a meta-level of what I thought the film itself was trying to say, that our understanding of what these things even is, is very dependent on our cultural understanding, through Theo's character.

But it doesn't emphasize his correctness

To be fair, this movies handling of emphasize is very strange in the first place. Lots of things strangely emphasized. Like Karamake's reaction to the monastery-cult, for instance.

But it doesn't emphasize his correctness. All of this is just left hanging there. All the anti-Western shit is hit with all the might that they could muster while any pro-Western shit is grudgingly included like it's a regrettable concession that has to be made but when no one's looking.

With "the anti-western shit", I assume that you're referring to the interactions between Theo-Evan-Karamake-Manduca, and not say, the Proselytizers or the Rubber-Barons? If that is the meaning, then I disagree with you, I don't really think the film is hitting with all the might it could muster.

If you do include the Colonists when you say Western. Then, well, I'd say the distortion is validated since this historical time-period was very brutal and destructive. The negative impact that Westerners made on these societies in this time-period far outweighed the positive ones. So a fair look at the period would be a very grim one.


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At this point I'm just going to assume that everyone in the club is a junkie:p
 

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I'm saying that Theo is right. Karakamate is ignorant in dissing his stuff. My statement was more on a meta-level of what I thought the film itself was trying to say, that our understanding of what these things even is, is very dependent on our cultural understanding, through Theo's character.

Gotcha. Then we agree. The problem is the film itself, specifically its handling of...well...whatever it was handling.

With "the anti-western shit", I assume that you're referring to the interactions between Theo-Evan-Karamake-Manduca, and not say, the Proselytizers or the Rubber-Barons? If that is the meaning, then I disagree with you, I don't really think the film is hitting with all the might it could muster.

It just seemed like every time that we saw something or that Karamakate said something anti-Western, there was this feeling like we were supposed to be thinking to ourselves, "Yeah, man, exactly." But then every time that we saw something or that Theo/Manduca/Evan said something that was pro-Western (or even simply not anti-Western), there wasn't an equivalent feeling. The ratio seemed way on the anti-Western side even though, as you rightly pointed out, there was plenty of shit in the film that'd lead one to assume that the ratio should've at least been 50/50 if not tilting to the pro-Western side.

I'd say the distortion is validated since this historical time-period was very brutal and destructive. The negative impact that Westerners made on these societies in this time-period far outweighed the positive ones. So a fair look at the period would be a very grim one.

That's what I was getting at with the cost-benefit shit in my initial post. @Rimbaud82, Mr. History, tell me I'm wrong: Isn't it bad history if you just isolate and remove one little chunk of time as if it's not embedded in a wider context? Where's the pros-and-cons discussion, where's the cost-benefit analysis? It's just about "Here we are in Time X and Place Y and this is what's happening and it's bad." But why is it happening, what happened after, who exactly should be praised/blamed, for what, and why?

It just didn't strike me as a sophisticated handling of the ethical and political issues involved in colonialism/globalization.
 
That's what I was getting at with the cost-benefit shit in my initial post. @Rimbaud82, Mr. History, tell me I'm wrong: Isn't it bad history if you just isolate and remove one little chunk of time as if it's not embedded in a wider context? Where's the pros-and-cons discussion, where's the cost-benefit analysis? It's just about "Here we are in Time X and Place Y and this is what's happening and it's bad." But why is it happening, what happened after, who exactly should be praised/blamed, for what, and why?

It just didn't strike me as a sophisticated handling of the ethical and political issues involved in colonialism/globalization.

I see where you coming from to some degree, and yes if you are attempting to analyse a historical time period in isolation and ignoring wider context and longer-term trends simply in order to make a particular point is certainly bad history (not that I am agreeing that the cost-benefit was necessarily worth it). However, it's also true that specific chunks of time need to be isolated and discussed on their own terms. I would say history, as it's studied nowadays, is more about building a picture up from from the 'small picture', than constantly trying to fit things into a 'big picture'. That is the influence of the dreaded post-modernism, but the eschewing of grand narratives is a good thing in my view, those are more likely to lead to a misunderstanding of the past more than anything else. Context is crucial, but the small details are just as important.

In any case, I feel like this film operates much more emotionally than it does analytically. Given that it is so closely bound up with the experiences and perspective of the Amazonian people themselves I think that it makes sense that takes a strongly 'anti-Western' tone. And I would say much of this is valid criticism anyway, of course explaining why it happened and placing it within it's wider context is important, but the explanation does nothing to reduce the actual human suffering. And this suffering and loss is what this film is primarily concerned. Perhaps you think the cost was worth it, or an inevitable consequence of modernisation and globalisation, but lamenting the loss of life and complete extinction of many of these cultures is worth it in my view.

I also agree with @europe1's point, that "the movie sort-of proves Theo correct. Despite him dying, his writing made it back to Europe. As the epilogue says, the writings of Theo are some of the sole-remaining sources we have about extinct cultures. Without them -- their names would be forgotten forever. That seems like a pretty powerful congratulation of Western memorabilia to me on the movies part."

Old Karamakate comes to realise this in the end too. I do agree with some of what you say about being 'damned if you do, damned if you don't' though, but in the film much of young Karamakate's statements to Theo are from the perspective of an angry young man whose entire world has been torn apart by Western colonialism. And again, there was a lot to be angry about whatever the reasons you might use to explain it.
 
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