Shotokan Karate and Machida Shotokan Karate

[Too Defensive**]

He's not champ because of karate, he's champ because he's so well rounded. No one is denying that karate is his base style but you have to be blind not to see the boxing and mt in his stand up. He doesn't train with guys like Anderson and the Nog brothers for no reason. And I like Machida, it's exciting and refreshing to see someone with a style like his, but he's not the "best striker evah" or unbeatable.

The TMA nuthuggers are just as patethic as the TMA bashers.

Wrong. He is the Champ becuase of Karate. The reason he is confusing the hell out of everybody is because of his Karate style, not due to his 1 or 2 MT techniques. The reason Rashad could not see any of Machida's attacks is because of his no windup TMA style. IN the end, his Karate is why he won the day.

 

[Kuffe]

Wrong. He is the Champ becuase of Karate. The reason he is confusing the hell out of everybody is because of his Karate style, not due to his 1 or 2 MT techniques. The reason Rashad could not see any of Machida's attacks is because of his no windup TMA style. IN the end, his Karate is why he won the day.

Wonder why Rashard didn't go for the takedown ? Because Lyoto has excellent wrestling/sumo, so he chose to try to strike with him. He won the stand up because of his confusing style but I think that the win took him more than karate. If you can't see it in his fight with Rashard, then watch his fight with Michael McDonald for example, he had to use his bjj and wrestling/sumo because he was up against a superior striker.

No offence but you seem to be just as biased as the "All TMA's suck" and the Machida haters.

He trains with Nog and Anderson because that is where the best fighters are in MMA near him. Is he ONLY supposed to do karate?

Of course not, he's smart enough to not do that. But people seem to think that his style is 100% karate only.

The reason he threw the flurry was because he tagged him with a straight short left off a kick which I have not see in MT classes but have seen, done and taught in karate.

Iv'e seen (and sometimes do myself but very rarely) people go forward with the kick to close the distance and clinch. You can punch off the kick too especially if your opponent has a bad habit of dropping his hands when blocking a kick. I think the technique is far more common in karate but it does happen in MT too.

Since Machida himself says karate is his base, then you can say that Evans was beat with his dominant standing style of karate.

It's fair to say that he biggest reason he won is because of his karate but I don't think it's the only one. If not in this fight, then at least in his road to the championship.

Best striker ever? Who knows but he has been thrown into the P4P discussions. So far he has never lost a round in MMA, is undefeated and champion. If time stopped and you had to look at standings, based on that, he could be considered the best ever (I am not saying it but you could make the argument).

I think it's safe to say he's not the best striker ever, certainly a top 5 P4P fighter though. If time stopped now I wouldn't call Machida the best ever, I think Fedor would still deserve that honor (I don't think he's ever lost a round too and he's faced tougher competition than Machida has at least at this moment).

It's way too early to be calling Machida the best but does he have the potential to be the best ever ? Hell yes.

 

[CELS]

I will tell you that most gyms try to flush out any resemblance of karate. I face it in my school. I fight the house style and I get tagged. The whole time I am thinking, why the hell am I fighting this way. I switch to more of a karate blend any I am immediately giving people a hard time. I hang out with the pro and am MMA corner so I am not talking about new kids.

I have similar experiences. Having trained primarily ITF TKD, I can either be a poor kickboxer or a mediocre TKD practicioner. The latter is usually more effective when sparring.

And, btw, I don't think anyone is arguing that Machida isn't incredibly cross-trained. The argument is whether his karate background is one of the main contributors to his success. I'd say yes. So does ChachiKiller. Nefti seems to disagree.

I'm somewhere in the middle. A lot of people are saying that Machida is a unique athlete, like Anderson Silva and GSP, and would probably be a world class fighter no matter what his discipline would be. It's the Bruce Lee-esque idea that the style doesn't really matter, I suppose. He primarily uses elements from karate, but I'm quite sure he would be pretty bad-ass if his father was a Wushu sifu (or whatever the term is).

I never said Karate or TMA's don't work , I have always said there is too much time wasted on techniques that don't work in the real world or ones that are rooted in tradition and not applicable in todays world of fighting.

I kind of agree with that. I disagree that it's a waste, because not all martial artists are focussed on full contact fighting. Furthermore, there are some TMA schools that have basically become kickboxing-TMA hybrids in order to be more effective in TMA sparring competitions. But I do agree that there is a lack of recognised TMA schools (and organisations) focussing on TMA-style sparring for the purposes of full contact fighting.

Lyoto's punch defense is simply moving away , leaning back to avoid punches or countering his opponents midway through their attack with his own.
When have you seen use one of the blocks they teach in Shotokan schools ?

There are some karate styles, I forget their name, which do not teach any blocks at all. Only movement, attack and counterattack. I wouldn't it put it past Machida's father to steal elements from other styles of karate, nor would I simply assume that all the non-shotokan techniques Machida uses are from muay thai. Elbow strikes were not invented in Thailand.

If the TMA people as a whole cross train , we will see more Karate ,Kung Fu and Tae Kwon Do fighters do well in full contact fight sports.
If they waste there time doing horse stances , crescent kicks, katas .etc,etc, then Machida will have been an anomaly and a fluke victory for TMA's.

As you say, it is doubtful that Machida will change karate schools in the near future and I don't think any MMA practicioners will begin training karate because of Machida either. Work more on sweeps and trips, probably. But not step into a dojo as a white belt karateka.

I am a Martial Artist first and a Muay Thai Fighter and Boxer second , and I look forward to the TMA's evolving and blending what works from other styles and discarding what doesn't.

Ditto. I hope that, in the future, there will be many different styles of "kickboxing" schools. Right now, you have the traditional kickboxing organisations and the muay thai, both of which are almost completely focussed on sparring. (Some kickboxers do the musical forms and whatever) Maybe in ten years, you will see shotokan-based kickboxing schools, TKD-based kickboxing schools, and if Cung Le doesn't retire to become a movie star, more Wushu schools.

The major TMA organisations won't change though. Not in a million years. Too many masters who are fond of katas.

 

[1Strike]

4. In this last fight I saw mostly karate. He hit him with a couple of hooks (they were not pretty) but that was a flurry. The reason he threw the flurry was because he tagged him with a straight short left off a kick which I have not see in MT classes but have seen, done and taught in karate. Not sure where the MT is but I have seen him clinch. I guess that is the big MT part of his game.

Right Kick , Right Punch Muay Thai Combo- Alex Gong Fairtex

That kick punch combo is one of the first combinations taught in a lot of Muay Thai gyms.

It is a very effective and sneaky combo and I have seen a lot of guys get knocked out or dropped with that combo in Muay Thai fights.

Both styles can claim that combo I guess.

As for what techniques he incorporates from MT , I agree it is mainly knees and the Thai Clinch.
Also he throws low (leg) kicks which aren't used in Shotokan and is now throwing a few boxing punches like those "sloppy hooks" he used on Saturday.

Are you serious? Look at yourself, struggling to find some sort of MT in Machida's game. So now Machida is the champ not because of Karate, but because of some MT techniques he is covertly using. Its pathetic as it is sad.

I never said Machida does not owe his UFC belt and success in MMA to Karate, but I am saying he also has used techniques from MT to great effect like he did when he dropped Tito and Heath with those knees and using the Thai Clinch . And don't come back with the bullshit statement that he learned his clinch & knee techniques from that Heian Yondan kata.

He owes the vast majority of his success to a lifetime of training to beat people to the punch which he learned in Shotokan, but he also owes some of his success to the time he spent training and learning from Muay Thai guys in Brazil and Thailand & he does use some techniques that he picked up from them.

To all the TMA guys on here , by all means use Machida as a role model of success using Karate , but if any of you want success in full contact combat sports such as MMA or K-1 style competitions , take the same path and cross train in other styles of striking that you will likely encounter in competitions.

 

[sifusherdog]

styles dont work people do

 

[ChachiKiller]

I have similar experiences. Having trained primarily ITF TKD, I can either be a poor kickboxer or a mediocre TKD practicioner. The latter is usually more effective when sparring.


I'm somewhere in the middle. A lot of people are saying that Machida is a unique athlete, like Anderson Silva and GSP, and would probably be a world class fighter no matter what his discipline would be. It's the Bruce Lee-esque idea that the style doesn't really matter, I suppose. He primarily uses elements from karate, but I'm quite sure he would be pretty bad-ass if his father was a Wushu sifu (or whatever the term is).


I kind of agree with that. I disagree that it's a waste, because not all martial artists are focussed on full contact fighting. Furthermore, there are some TMA schools that have basically become kickboxing-TMA hybrids in order to be more effective in TMA sparring competitions. But I do agree that there is a lack of recognised TMA schools (and organisations) focussing on TMA-style sparring for the purposes of full contact fighting.


There are some karate styles, I forget their name, which do not teach any blocks at all. Only movement, attack and counterattack. I wouldn't it put it past Machida's father to steal elements from other styles of karate, nor would I simply assume that all the non-shotokan techniques Machida uses are from muay thai. Elbow strikes were not invented in Thailand.


As you say, it is doubtful that Machida will change karate schools in the near future and I don't think any MMA practicioners will begin training karate because of Machida either. Work more on sweeps and trips, probably. But not step into a dojo as a white belt karateka.



Ditto. I hope that, in the future, there will be many different styles of "kickboxing" schools. Right now, you have the traditional kickboxing organisations and the muay thai, both of which are almost completely focussed on sparring. (Some kickboxers do the musical forms and whatever) Maybe in ten years, you will see shotokan-based kickboxing schools, TKD-based kickboxing schools, and if Cung Le doesn't retire to become a movie star, more Wushu schools.

The major TMA organisations won't change though. Not in a million years. Too many masters who are fond of katas.

The really strange thing about your post is that those quotes don't belong to me. Did you get the right guy with the right quote? Never saw that before.

 

[1Strike]

The really strange thing about your post is that those quotes don't belong to me. Did you get the right guy with the right quote? Never saw that before.

Yeah when I saw his post and it what was my post that somehow got quoted under your name I was thinking WTF?!

Of all the people to misquote he picked the one with the most opposite views.:icon_lol:

 

[ChachiKiller]

Yeah when I saw his post and it what was my post that somehow got quoted under your name I was thinking WTF?!

Of all the people to misquote he picked the one with the most opposite views.:icon_lol:

I know. However, I really do not think we have different views. We go at it (from my perspective) because people like you trash karate and TMAs as a whole. We started on the effectiveness of KK.

You think I am a stuck in the mud dinosaur (I do MMA but I also practice karate.) and I think you are blinded by MT as the only solution.

I think you have good posts on MT and see you coming more to the center.

 

[ChachiKiller]

They teach the grab the head and pull down onto a knee strike in the 4th Heian kata. It's not used in competition obviously, but it's there.

In his latest interview, he said Shotokan was his base.

At about 102 is a knee smash. The application is to drive someones head into your knee.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HrAiTCcatbY

 

[jimglynn]

Chachi- do you have any vids of Yahara or Kagowa from the 80's? That was the golden era that these guys need to see to really appreciate Shotokan.
thanks,
Jim

 

[Kozbot]

Wrong. He is the Champ becuase of Karate. The reason he is confusing the hell out of everybody is because of his Karate style, not due to his 1 or 2 MT techniques. The reason Rashad could not see any of Machida's attacks is because of his no windup TMA style. IN the end, his Karate is why he won the day.

I would say it is because he is incredibly fast and accurate, while having a decent amount of power. Some of his techniques are very awesome, especially the punch then leg trip combo.

 

[CELS]

The really strange thing about your post is that those quotes don't belong to me. Did you get the right guy with the right quote? Never saw that before.

Damn. I blame the Sherdog multi-quote function and the wickedness of the new forum.

With that said, I'll just assume both of you agreed with my post, despite the faulty quoting.

 

[ChachiKiller]

Chachi- do you have any vids of Yahara or Kagowa from the 80's? That was the golden era that these guys need to see to really appreciate Shotokan.
thanks,
Jim

Not sure. Everything I have is "gulp" on tape. I am an old bastard. There are tons of great fights on YouTube.

 

[Daccias]

Wrong. He is the Champ becuase of Karate. The reason he is confusing the hell out of everybody is because of his Karate style, not due to his 1 or 2 MT techniques. The reason Rashad could not see any of Machida's attacks is because of his no windup TMA style. IN the end, his Karate is why he won the day.

Yes, Machida is a great fighter. Yes, Machida trains in Shotokan Karate. However, he is NOT a great fighter just because of Shotokan Karate. Machida cross trains. He also trains in Boxing/Muay Thai aswell as having experiance in BJJ and Wrestling. He cross trains like everyone else in MMA these days. It's his complete training package which makes him the fighter that he is. To tell you the truth, his stand up looks like kickboxing. Like all striking arts be it Karate, Muay Thai whatever, a turning kick looks like a turning kick and straight left, right looks like a straight left, right and knee thrust to the body looks like a knee thrust to the body. All stand up striking looks the same. Nobody would ever be able to pick Machida trained in Shotokan just by watching him fight. He could tell people his stand up is Kickboxing and nobody would know the difference.

 

[True2KungFu]

that is absolutley untrue. Kickboxing does not use the type of footwork or stance that machida does.... all traditional shotokan. Kickboxing does not use sweeps in the manner that machida does. The majority of kickboxers do not chamber their kicks unless they come from a tma style. Even machidas punches are more karate based.... if you know what to look for. Just face it a dude won with karate, there are badasses out there that havent even considered mma yet.

 

[ChachiKiller]

Yes, Machida is a great fighter. Yes, Machida trains in Shotokan Karate. However, he is NOT a great fighter just because of Shotokan Karate. Machida cross trains. He also trains in Boxing/Muay Thai aswell as having experiance in BJJ and Wrestling. He cross trains like everyone else in MMA these days. It's his complete training package which makes him the fighter that he is. To tell you the truth, his stand up looks like kickboxing. Like all striking arts be it Karate, Muay Thai whatever, a turning kick looks like a turning kick and straight left, right looks like a straight left, right and knee thrust to the body looks like a knee thrust to the body. All stand up striking looks the same. Nobody would ever be able to pick Machida trained in Shotokan just by watching him fight. He could tell people his stand up is Kickboxing and nobody would know the difference.

All stand up striking looks the same.

Machida's stand up looks like Evans, Bispbing, Chuck, A. Silva, ...... not really.

Machida is (gulp) using what made him a world class point fighter. Yes he is primarily a stand-up karate guy but it is the movement from his semi-contact karate days. He fights pretty much the same way. He does not stop as required by point rules.

That makes him different, fast and hard to hit.

 

[Daccias]

Dude, all striking does look the same. Have a look over the vast UFC/MMA video's. We all have 2 arms and 2 legs. There are only so many different ways to throw a punch or a kick. A straigh left-right 1-2 combination is a straight left right 1-2 combination. A turning kick is a turning kick. The width of stance or how you move around the cage is personal thing.

 

[Too Defensive**]

Dude, all striking does look the same.

No dude... just no.

 

[Hotora86]

Dude, all striking does look the same

no.

 

[Snubnoze707]

Dude, all striking does look the same.

no

You shouldn't post in this section if you believe that. You obviously do not know what you are watching...