should long guns be designed to not require tilting your head to aim

MadSquabbles500

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Should long guns be designed so you are not required to tilt your head down to aim down the iron sights?

Is there something they can do with the buttstock? Like place it differently or at an angle. On rental paintball guns, the air cannister serves as the buttstock. It extends from the bottom of the pistol grip. So basically I dont have to tilt my head when trying to aim.

Why are gun's butt stocks the way they are? Is it because most guns are meant to be fired while lying on your stomach?
 
Rifles are supposed to be fired from the shoulder, not laying down. It's a matter of using your dominant hand and eye at the same time. Or you can shoot Afghan style.
 
someone should design a periscope set of optics
 
Better yet, just something like google glass that you wear on your head that you see the target through because your gun sites send a signal to the glasses. Then we could all just shoot from the hip and still hit our targets. :)
 
I've never thought that it felt uncomfortable. Shouldering a rifle feels quite natural. When you shoulder a rifle and you tilt your head down and bring your arms in you're creating a smaller target for anyone who's going to try and shoot at you.
 
Instead of tilting your head, try canting the stock.

like so:

Canted7020.jpg


See, no crooked head.
 
Instead of tilting your head, try canting the stock.

like so:

Canted7020.jpg


See, no crooked head.

But even with that you have to raise your shoulders more or the butt stock is making less contact with the shoulder.

I am thinking why is there not a design in which you don't need to shrug your shoulders, tilt your head, and can pretty much stand more relaxed and natural. It would reduce fatigue, and make shooting more pleasant.
 
But even with that you have to raise your shoulders more or the butt stock is making less contact with the shoulder.

I am thinking why is there not a design in which you don't need to shrug your shoulders, tilt your head, and can pretty much stand more relaxed and natural. It would reduce fatigue, and make shooting more pleasant.

you-can-act-like-a-man-o.gif
 
But even with that you have to raise your shoulders more or the butt stock is making less contact with the shoulder.

I am thinking why is there not a design in which you don't need to shrug your shoulders, tilt your head, and can pretty much stand more relaxed and natural. It would reduce fatigue, and make shooting more pleasant.

There is, it's called an adjustable stock.

Really though it's rather a non issue, spend a little more time acclimating to the rifle over the paintball gun, and you'll have it by the balls.

There's all sorts of standing positions depending on what you like.

Neutral

StandPosition.jpg



High

AR_Offhand.jpg



Run N Gun

6669925909_1c48bc5700_b.jpg



How much time do you want to spend shooting offhand anyhow? Are you trying to sustain 20 accurate shots say?


It's best to build your technique off what you want to achieve.
 
If this is a problem for you regardless of the type/manufacturer of rifle you're using, you're probably holding it wrong. I'd say try snapping the stock into your shoulder a little further in towards your chest. Or-- more likely-- hold it so as to raise the sights up to eye level instead of lowering your eye to the sight.
 
AR_Offhand.jpg


How does he not lose control of that from the kick..
 
AR_Offhand.jpg


How does he not lose control of that from the kick..

AR recoil is so light, it's not a problem at all.



It's true its not a good style to employ if the wind is blowing though.
 
I am being serious here.

I can understand it for the early bolt actions, but as time went by, and new advancements came, the ergonomics kind of stagnated.

Are you cross eye dominant? Meaning right handed but trying to stair down the sights with your left eye? Or vice versa. Thats the only reason your head would really tilt.
 
The problem with topics like this is that people talk about it without understanding the fundamental issues of weapons design.

The design of all long guns require compromises to bring together two lines as closely as possible - your line of sight and the bore line of sight.

The bore line of sight goes from the barrel through the chamber through the bolt through the stock and should ideally form a straight line to minimize muzzle movement due to recoil. Most modern assault rifles, especially western ones such AR-15 derived designs has a straight line from the barrel through the stock into the shoulder.

M4A1_ACOG.jpg


On the other hand, by the time the bore sight line reaches the shoulder on these early model AK and M14, they are well above the stock.

640px-AK-47_type_II_Part_DM-ST-89-01131.jpg


Check out how much drop there is in the stock of early lever action rifles:

1866-RifleCategory-Page462.jpg


What this means is that the recoil doesn't go directly back into the shooter's shoulder, but introduces torque that forces the muzzle upwards. The further the drop from the boreline, the more torque and muzzle rise there will be due to the moment arm being longer. This is bad for a number of obvious and not so obvious reasons.

Second thing to notice about the differences between rifles with a lot of drop at the stock is that the sights are closer to the barrel. The ones with bore lines that go straight the stock have to elevate sights off of the barrel. This is also not a good thing. The further the sights are off the bore line, the greater the bore angle is off the line of sight, creating a higher parabolic path for the bullet trajectory, which alters the drop table and where the crossovers are on your zero:

Figure_2-_Illustration_of_a_Rifle_Showing_Line_of_Sight_and_Bore_Angle..jpg

TargetShooting3.gif


Take this exaggerated example: Let's say I had a pistol and my target is five meters away at eye level. If my pistol is at eye level, then my aim is pretty much horizontal. OTOH, if I am firing my pistol cowboy action style, from the hip, I am aiming my pistol at a significant upwards angle to hit that eye level target. Similarly, the farther off the bore your sights are, the more rise and fall are being introduced to bullet trajectory (generally speaking, the flatter the trajectory, the better - the ideal bullet would be completely flat and travel in a straight line.)

Ultimately, you want minimum distance between the sights and the bore, while limiting stock drop. These two things are mutually incompatible, so by compromise the head comes down to establish a cheek weld on the stock to bring your eye in line with the sights.

A lot of competitive shotgunners prefer a more heads up shooting position but this can effect your speed for rapid followups shots because you are making more adjustments for muzzle movement between shots.

If you want to take a look at a modern long arm with ergonomic sights, look at the Steyr AUG A2's original offset sights:

855.jpg
 
M1 Garand Snipers had the scope offset and it's uncomfortable as heck to shoot IMO.
 
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