Solved a problem of 20yrs in 2 weeks (knees)

[wufabufa]

Don't know what you mean by three heads, but they don't. The short head of the biceps femoris is not bi-articular (crossing two joints) as the rest of the hamstrings and only crosses the knee joint, hence is only used in knee flexion. Further than that, some evidence suggests that the semitendinosus responds better to knee flexion exercises given it's inner moment arm. Either way, there's regional hypertrophy and such, so it's definitely not the same even for the rest of the hamstrings.

Damn, you literally beat me to it.

 

[Sano]

Damn, you literally beat me to it.

Gotta up your game!

Btw, for a real geekout on the hamstrings:

 

[wufabufa]

Gotta up your game!

Btw, for a real geekout on the hamstrings:

I'll be ready next time....

 

[Sano]

A few other quick things in regards to this thread:

1. Hamstrings, including knee flexion exercises, is something almost anyone should do and can help improve knee stability, lower risk of injury and reduce knee pain.

2. Doing hamstring exercises doesn't necessitate knee pain will disappear. Knee pain is complex.

3. There is no "right" or "wrong" way to squat necessarily. The video further up in the thread demonstrates a low bar/forward lean squat with your hips sitting back more shifting your weight towards your posterior. That can be very helpful for someone with knee pain (especially something like tendinitis) and I use it often in rehab. However, different types of squat for different people, with different goals.

 

[gspieler]

Don't know what you mean by three heads, but they don't. The short head of the biceps femoris is not bi-articular (crossing two joints) as the rest of the hamstrings are, and therefor only crosses the knee joint. Hence, it's used in knee flexion. Further than that, some evidence suggests that the semitendinosus responds better to knee flexion than hip extension, given its moment arm. Either way, it's definitely not the same even for the rest of the hamstrings.

I used the wrong term. I meant the three muscles that comprise hamstrings, ie the biceps femoris, semitendinosus, and semimbranosous.

 

[Phlog]

A few other quick things in regards to this thread:

1. Hamstrings, including knee flexion exercises, is something almost anyone should do and can help improve knee stability, lower risk of injury and reduce knee pain.

2. Doing hamstring exercises doesn't necessitate knee pain will disappear. Knee pain is complex.

3. There is no "right" or "wrong" way to squat necessarily. The video further up in the thread demonstrates a low bar/forward lean squat with your hips sitting back more shifting your weight towards your posterior. That can be very helpful for someone with knee pain (especially something like tendinitis) and I use it often in rehab. However, different types of squat for different people, with different goals.

Thanks for summing it all up bro!

I'm currently wondering whether to switch my smolov jr into full smolov at the moment. It's a heady time to be me. Squat one rep was 160, deadlift mid 200's so I'm hoping to move towards parity, I reckon it's going to translate to the field pretty well.

 

[EL CORINTHIAN]

When you train your hamstrings you always need a knee flexor like a ham curl (seated>lying) and some sort of hip hinge that stretches the ham cakes out.

No knee flexor exercise means you are leaving hamstring development on the table.

 

[EL CORINTHIAN]

Knee pain is complex.

Big time. It can be so many things.

For me it was literally tightness of both the quads and calves.

 

[vatoslocoss]

Glad for you bro.

 

[DoomPatrol]

I've always felt like you should focus on the main compound lifts, do major compound accessory work then finish with light/moderate weights isolating the different muscle groups for higher reps. It just seems like good pre-hab work. All exercises have a place, including isolation. I wouldn't make them the focus of my program, but they are good finishers.

 

[Phlog]

So as @Sano said knee pain is complex. My new found freedom to squat led me to smolov, it was glorious and squats are forever changed for me, but I failed to do the relevent stretching.

I went for a tryout day to see what I could do now athletically without ramping up to it and I really felt the lack of prep. Knees hated sprinting etc, shooting pains in lower back. I performed reasonably but didn't really recover for the best part of the week.

All the squatting obviously put extra pressure on the already tight structures at the top of the quad. So I started stretching it out and over the next couple of weeks have reduced the recovery from 4 days to 2. Also started using instep inserts etc.

Went to a physio to keep the momentum going and she decided the problems lie in the hip, at least that's where were looking. Peraformis stretch, hip flexor stretch, advanced clam glute medius exercise trying to activate glute more, several times a day. Also I'm foam rolling the muscles that attach to the IT band at the top of the leg.

Squatting and bending knee is still a pain free activity but now we're trying to make the knees not flair up with petaphemoral pain after athletic stuff. It's pretty exciting being able to fix stuff this way, I can't believe I'm going into my 8th season, old and yet strongest I've been, coach wants to try me at full back if we recruit well enough to the o line, not sure my head can handle that and we won't recruit enough but it's a testament to the improved mobility.

 

[Lemmy Bengbrough]

This is why "bro work" shouldnt be neglected.
Single joint exercises are great, but shouldnt the foundation obviously.
Glad you are doing better.

Yup.
perfect example of how the strength training dialogue has swung so far the other way people are led to believe a cookie-cutter, "Just squat, bench, and dead" program is all everyone needs to stay healthy.

 

[Phlog]

Yup.
perfect example of how the strength training dialogue has swung so far the other way people are led to believe a cookie-cutter, "Just squat, bench, and dead" program is all everyone needs to stay healthy.

Yeah, it's far more complicated and probably more so than any individual has the capability to manage.

 

[DoomPatrol]

Yup.
perfect example of how the strength training dialogue has swung so far the other way people are led to believe a cookie-cutter, "Just squat, bench, and dead" program is all everyone needs to stay healthy.

I don't know. I think that talk is great for beginners. Yes, that's all you need as a beginner in strength and power because you're weak everywhere. Once you get more advanced you start adding in assistance to help weak points out and then you add in prehab/rehab work. But by the time you're at that level you probably shouldn't require an online workout page to program your entire routine for you.

 

[Cole train]

So as @Sano said knee pain is complex. My new found freedom to squat led me to smolov, it was glorious and squats are forever changed for me, but I failed to do the relevent stretching.

I went for a tryout day to see what I could do now athletically without ramping up to it and I really felt the lack of prep. Knees hated sprinting etc, shooting pains in lower back. I performed reasonably but didn't really recover for the best part of the week.

All the squatting obviously put extra pressure on the already tight structures at the top of the quad. So I started stretching it out and over the next couple of weeks have reduced the recovery from 4 days to 2. Also started using instep inserts etc.

Went to a physio to keep the momentum going and she decided the problems lie in the hip, at least that's where were looking. Peraformis stretch, hip flexor stretch, advanced clam glute medius exercise trying to activate glute more, several times a day. Also I'm foam rolling the muscles that attach to the IT band at the top of the leg.

Squatting and bending knee is still a pain free activity but now we're trying to make the knees not flair up with petaphemoral pain after athletic stuff. It's pretty exciting being able to fix stuff this way, I can't believe I'm going into my 8th season, old and yet strongest I've been, coach wants to try me at full back if we recruit well enough to the o line, not sure my head can handle that and we won't recruit enough but it's a testament to the improved mobility.

Lmao at 6 foot 6 plus 110 kg fullback

Crazy

 

[Phlog]

So to update it's all good. Still get the occasional pain but the real problems are history. I'm squatting heavier than ever now doing legs three times a week. Football is off of course so can't comment further.

Am now working on being able to do the splits.

Bumping this because it has given me hope for my own knees, which have also been very fragile (two meniscus ops on one, pretty sure I need a third for the other) since my late teens – thanks @Phlog.

Unfortunately my options are pretty limited during lockdown, guess I'll experiment with Nordic ham curls? Any recommendations?

Man, like people said complex joint, but my experience has been if you can find out what's wrong you can absolutely train it to be better. Nordic ham curl is great, I'm loving the resistance band leg curl, so simple to do at home and absolutely nails it.

I used inserts in shoes, worked on the bicep femoris/hamstring and have been working on loosening the hips big time.

Lmao at 6 foot 6 plus 110 kg fullback

Crazy

125kg, and yeah it'll never happen <Lmaoo>

I've been taking my coaching qualifications and started coaching o line, still playing, thinking maybe about going back to my roots and playing D line, then I can watch what my o lines doing with the other coaches.

 

[Cole train]

So to update it's all good. Still get the occasional pain but the real problems are history. I'm squatting heavier than ever now doing legs three times a week. Football is off of course so can't comment further.

Am now working on being able to do the splits.



Man, like people said complex joint, but my experience has been if you can find out what's wrong you can absolutely train it to be better. Nordic ham curl is great, I'm loving the resistance band leg curl, so simple to do at home and absolutely nails it.

I used inserts in shoes, worked on the bicep femoris/hamstring and have been working on loosening the hips big time.



125kg, and yeah it'll never happen <Lmaoo>

I've been taking my coaching qualifications and started coaching o line, still playing, thinking maybe about going back to my roots and playing D line, then I can watch what my o lines doing with the other coaches.

You should try for international team

Its an interesting experience to get before moving to coaching

 

[ImmigrantMentality]

So to update it's all good. Still get the occasional pain but the real problems are history. I'm squatting heavier than ever now doing legs three times a week. Football is off of course so can't comment further.

Am now working on being able to do the splits.



Man, like people said complex joint, but my experience has been if you can find out what's wrong you can absolutely train it to be better. Nordic ham curl is great, I'm loving the resistance band leg curl, so simple to do at home and absolutely nails it.

I used inserts in shoes, worked on the bicep femoris/hamstring and have been working on loosening the hips big time.



125kg, and yeah it'll never happen <Lmaoo>

I've been taking my coaching qualifications and started coaching o line, still playing, thinking maybe about going back to my roots and playing D line, then I can watch what my o lines doing with the other coaches.

Glad somebody bumped your thread, strange because I've actually been experiencing the same problems lately. Pain in my knees that are aggravated from sitting down with my knees bent. Just to be clear, what type of curls helped you with your knee pain? Are you talking about hamstring curls or quadricep curls? I actually used to perform both but I stopped because I began reading information that quad curls were bad for knees and hamstring curls were bad for your back, so I found it interesting when I came across this thread.

 

[vision1]

Glad somebody bumped your thread, strange because I've actually been experiencing the same problems lately. Pain in my knees that are aggravated from sitting down with my knees bent. Just to be clear, what type of curls helped you with your knee pain? Are you talking about hamstring curls or quadricep curls? I actually used to perform both but I stopped because I began reading information that quad curls were bad for knees and hamstring curls were bad for your back, so I found it interesting when I came across this thread.

The quadriceps extend the knee, they don't curl.
Curls refer to flexion (hamstrings)

 

[Phlog]

You should try for international team

Its an interesting experience to get before moving to coaching

I spoke to a mentor of mine about it as my head coach was keen to put me forward but my mentor said 1 the application process is a sham and they broadly just pick from the top two prem teams in the country and 2 they choose youth before most things because they want as long as possible with the athlete. I'm going to apply but I'm assuming it won't happen. Most people aren't freaks like me in peak health at 40 so they don't know.

Glad somebody bumped your thread, strange because I've actually been experiencing the same problems lately. Pain in my knees that are aggravated from sitting down with my knees bent. Just to be clear, what type of curls helped you with your knee pain? Are you talking about hamstring curls or quadricep curls? I actually used to perform both but I stopped because I began reading information that quad curls were bad for knees and hamstring curls were bad for your back, so I found it interesting when I came across this thread.

Hamstring curl, hip stabilised so it's just the knee joint flexing. I'd look into reducing the strain on your IT band, stretching the hip like a bastard also!