Sonny Liston vs George Foreman

[JayE]

Yes styles matter but in Ali's case one was a landslide and Foremans beaten all sorts of styles, Norton, Frazier etc

Fact is Liston's reign came to an abrupt end as soon as the HW division started seeing bigger competitors, the era which Liston actually started by being the prototype.

Foreman was bigger than Liston and competed all the way through to the modern era, the man took on prime Holyfield while he was a Grandfather.

Liston would put up a fight but in the end I see Foreman walking him down and catching him.

In their sparring matches if young George was giving Liston all he could handle, what do you think prime mature George would do?

Liston's reign came to an abrupt end when he fought the best mover in HW history who weighed barely over 200 pounds. The size wasn't the issue, it was the speed and boxing ability. Liston beat several HWs who were bigger and hit harder than Ali (Williams and Valdes, for example).

 

[spacetime]

Liston's reign came to an abrupt end when he fought the best mover in HW history who weighed barely over 200 pounds. The size wasn't the issue, it was the speed and boxing ability. Liston beat HWs who were bigger and hit harder than Ali (Williams and Valdes, for example).

In the case of Williams, it seemed as if Listons chin carried him through both fights, while it was the complete opposite for Williams(chin was a liability).

 

[spacetime]

I don't know about 50/50. I think Liston takes it more often than not. Foreman himself said Liston was the only man to stand up to him, and back him up consistently in the ring back in their sparring days when Liston sort of took young George under his wing. Said he was the scariest man he ever met in the ring.

At the 1:10 mark:

I'm surprised Tyson concidered Liston the most intimidating fighter of all time. Foreman had waaay more first and second round stoppages than Liston and comparable power

 

[mozfonky]

Or I just saw endless displays of Alis superior handspeed which Foreman couldn't cope with.

Here Ali is just a few days after the fight. He didn't have a scratch on him

amazing isn't it? Ali could absorb a lot of punishment and not show it, his skin was damn near impossible to cut, he also had round features which help with taking punches. He did have a slight redness to his eye in the post fight interviews because george accidentally thumbed him. For any of you who don't realize just how hard it is to take punishment without damage, you would get it if you sparred for 3 rounds and realize how important durability alone is to a boxer.

 

[mozfonky]

I'm surprised Tyson concidered Liston the most intimidating fighter of all time. Foreman had waaay more first and second round stoppages than Liston and comparable power

Liston had more charisma/mystery.

 

[spacetime]

amazing isn't it? Ali could absorb a lot of punishment and not show it, his skin was damn near impossible to cut, he also had round features which help with taking punches. He did have a slight redness to his eye in the post fight interviews because george accidentally thumbed him. For any of you who don't realize just how hard it is to take punishment without damage, you would get it if you sparred for 3 rounds and realize how important durability alone is to a boxer.

He took a few punches to the face early on, but Foreman punched himself out very quickly and missed heavily. Spoiled what could have been a much more high quality match from both sides.

 

[mozfonky]

I don't know about 50/50. I think Liston takes it more often than not. Foreman himself said Liston was the only man to stand up to him, and back him up consistently in the ring back in their sparring days when Liston sort of took young George under his wing. Said he was the scariest man he ever met in the ring.

At the 1:10 mark:

that's correct, there was a story that Liston was talking shit to Foreman, just lightheartedly, and George got mad and told him he wouldn't be talking to him like that if "he saw what I did to that Russian" in the olympics. Sonny, as he was when he was unguarded, took it the same way he gave the teasing, he laughed at the kid.

 

[spacetime]

Speaking of Alis Foreman, why couldn't they have the fight sanctioned in the US? I hate it when outside factors such as temperatures affect the fighters. And it affected both in different ways.

 

[mozfonky]

He took a few punches to the face early on, but Foreman punched himself out very quickly and missed heavily. Spoiled what could have been a much more high quality match from both sides.

He didn't take many punches in that fight and the ones he did, he had a million tricks to ride with them, or take the force out of them because that's one of the skills he had.

 

[mozfonky]

Speaking of Alis Foreman, why couldn't they have the fight sanctioned in the US? I hate it when outside factors such as temperatures affect the fighters. And it affected both in different ways.

those are excuses, the greater fighter the bigger the heart, the more those kinds of things are usually overcome. ali was the older fighter so if anyone would have been more affected by the heat it would be him. George just wasn't mentally strong enough to deal with the shit ali dealt him and the reason they fought in africa is because that is where they were offered five million a piece.

 

[spacetime]

He didn't take many punches in that fight and the ones he did, he had a million tricks to ride with them, or take the force out of them because that's one of the skills he had.

Not really. Ali got dropped several times in his carrier. Ironically never from the biggest punchers he faced (Liston, Foreman, Shavers).

 

[mozfonky]

also, as to who the better fighter was, hard to say, I think George had better trainers by far than Liston did. Sonny pretty much was on his own and his lack of all around ring knowledge hurt him when he fought Clay. Foreman had one thing Sonny lacked, the ability to cut the ring off but it did him little good. Still, Ali has always stated that Sonny was one of the greatest and "most scientific" of all the heavyweight champs so he must have seen some skills for him to say that.

 

[spacetime]

those are excuses, the greater fighter the bigger the heart, the more those kinds of things are usually overcome. ali was the older fighter so if anyone would have been more affected by the heat it would be him. George just wasn't mentally strong enough to deal with the shit ali dealt him and the reason they fought in africa is because that is where they were offered five million a piece.

I'm not saying it would affect the outcome, but it would have the quality. And despite the age difference, the guy with weaker cardio obviously suffers more from the heat.

 

[mozfonky]

Not really. Ali got dropped several times in his carrier. Ironically never from the biggest punchers he faced (Liston, Foreman, Shavers).

all fighters get caught and he was still the greatest defensive heavy in history, he had a million tricks, i personally always think of how Norton would try to decapitate him with an uppercut in the third fight and ali would cooly turn his head, that's something that no one would ever teach anyone.

 

[mozfonky]

I'm not saying it would affect the outcome, but it would have the quality. And despite the age difference, the guy with weaker cardio obviously suffers more from the heat.

he was the greater athlete, he fought in malaysia in even hotter weather and manila, bugner and joe in horrible conditions. The guy was special, that's all there is to it.

 

[spacetime]

also, as to who the better fighter was, hard to say, I think George had better trainers by far than Liston did. Sonny pretty much was on his own and his lack of all around ring knowledge hurt him when he fought Clay. Foreman had one thing Sonny lacked, the ability to cut the ring off but it did him little good. Still, Ali has always stated that Sonny was one of the greatest and "most scientific" of all the heavyweight champs so he must have seen some skills for him to say that.

Oh did he? I know Ali stated in retrospect that Frazier was undoubtedly the opponent he respected and admired the most. Makes sense concidering their wars. But hard to argue that he's better than Foreman who slaughtered him twice

 

[spacetime]

he was the greater athlete, he fought in malaysia in even hotter weather and manila, bugner and joe in horrible conditions. The guy was special, that's all there is to it.

But again, Ali was the cardio king. Those conditions favoured him. Foreman wasn't even used to going past 4 rounds.

 

[Jhonni5]

I'm surprised Tyson concidered Liston the most intimidating fighter of all time. Foreman had waaay more first and second round stoppages than Liston and comparable power

It was mainly the way Liston carried himself. George had that look about him like, "Damn this dude gonna fuck me up..." With Liston it was more like, "This guy's gonna kill me, kill my family, my relatives etc..."

 

[mozfonky]

Oh did he? I know Ali stated in retrospect that Frazier was undoubtedly the opponent he respected and admired the most. Makes sense concidering their wars. But hard to argue that he's better than Foreman who slaughtered him twice

like most fighters, depends on the day you asked him. I had an magazine back in the 80's where all the fighters around at the time were asked who was the greatest fighter of the past 20 years, and they couldn't answer by saying themselves. Of course most fighters said ali, Ali's choice was Liston and said with a wink "I'm the only one who beat him when he was any good".

 

[mozfonky]

But again, Ali was the cardio king. Those conditions favoured him. Foreman wasn't even used to going past 4 rounds.

Ali, if some of the people around him can be trusted to have told the truth, didn't really train that hard in the seventies. Holmes once said he'd only train for the final two weeks, ali said "that's his opinion". But if we go by his weight which is one indicator of condition (not always an accurate one) he weighed 211 for the norton rematch, 212 for the Frazier rematch 217 for the Foreman fight and 224 for the third Frazier fight which tells you that he may not have trained as hard. He still won. The one gift he abused was his ability to take a shot, he didn't have to avoid the punches if he wasn't in shape to move like he used to, he could just lay on the ropes and take it.