The Jordan Peterson Thread - V2 -

Two things. First, this post makes me want to respond to you with the quote in your sig, because, in my experience, anti-intellectualism is invariably the product of either laziness or some kind of inferiority complex.

Second, philosophy has made innumerable modern contributions, both good and bad, and it'll continue to do so. It's our responsibility to make sure its future contributions are good ones. But, at present, it's contributing more bad than good.

And if you doubt the ability of philosophy to have an impact on contemporary life, just pick your head up and look around. What do you think the cause is if not philosophy?

I tend to agree with Peterson's claim that what happens in the university happens in the rest of the world 5-10 years later. And, again, if you need proof, just take a look around when you have a minute.

Nah disagree on all counts. Has made 0 modern contributions to medicine, engineering, general scientific progress, etc. It's almost completely worthless on all levels. Essentially comprised of a bunch of do-nothings who ramble on and on without a modicum of real world application.

Would take the late, great Isaac Newton over 1 billion Petersons. One Einstein over a trillion Jungs and Nietzsches. It isn't even close, to even make the comparison is borderline cringe worthy.
 
I can sympathize with him on this point. Knowing that Peterson likes esoteric/mystical crap (or, for another example, that Ben Shapiro is super religious) kind of bums me out. But I understand where Peterson is coming from. It's an easy logical chain to follow.

Human beings are limited, finite creatures ---> We've barely scratched the surface when it comes to understanding ourselves, let alone understanding existence as such ---> It's plainly true that there's more that we don't know than there is that we do know ---> For all we know, "God" as He/It is described in the most orthodox sense does exist...and that'd be pretty cool.

I get that logic. And I can't deny that it'd be cool if God existed. It'd also be cool if I could fly. But I can't. And I don't pretend that I can.

But if Peterson wants to hold onto some mystery and if he wants to hold onto the possibility of there being a literal supernatural dimension, then so long as it doesn't get in the way of him making intelligent points - and, as far as I've seen, it hasn't - I don't give a shit.



That was painfully stupid.



Two things. First, this post makes me want to respond to you with the quote in your sig, because, in my experience, anti-intellectualism is invariably the product of either laziness or some kind of inferiority complex.

Second, philosophy has made innumerable modern contributions, both good and bad, and it'll continue to do so. It's our responsibility to make sure its future contributions are good ones. But, at present, it's contributing more bad than good.

And if you doubt the ability of philosophy to have an impact on contemporary life, just pick your head up and look around. What do you think the cause is if not philosophy?

I tend to agree with Peterson's claim that what happens in the university happens in the rest of the world 5-10 years later. And, again, if you need proof, just take a look around when you have a minute.

I was also a bit annoyed at Peterson beating around the bush, but the more you read/listen to him, the more you understand he's not trying to dodge anything, it's just the way he operates. This is especially highlighted in his exchange with Sam Harris.

When it comes to theism, I believe the point of contention is that many believe that it is illogical to believe in God, such that no intelligent person should subscribe to such a belief, no matter how nuanced that position may be. I think many of these people would rather see guys like Newton fade into obscurity, and someone like Peterson coming along only threatens their position. But you'll also notice that Peterson doesn't only "stand up" for religion because he "believes" it, but because he believes the foundation of religion has certain axioms that are not otherwise necessary, a point he articulates in this lecture.
 
Nah disagree on all counts [...] Would take the late, great Isaac Newton over 1 billion Petersons. One Einstein over a trillion Jungs and Nietzsches. It isn't even close, to even make the comparison is borderline cringe worthy.

Clearly, you're unaware of Einstein's philosophical grounding. Einstein's own words are italicized. Prepare to cringe:

https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/einstein-philscience/

"Late in 1944, Albert Einstein received a letter from Robert Thornton, a young African-American philosopher of science who had just finished his Ph.D. under Herbert Feigl at Minnesota and was beginning a new job teaching physics at the University of Puerto Rico, Mayaguez. He had written to solicit from Einstein a few supportive words on behalf of his efforts to introduce “as much of the philosophy of science as possible” into the modern physics course that he was to teach the following spring (Thornton to Einstein, 28 November 1944, EA 61–573). Here is what Einstein offered in reply:

I fully agree with you about the significance and educational value of methodology as well as history and philosophy of science. So many people today—and even professional scientists—seem to me like somebody who has seen thousands of trees but has never seen a forest. A knowledge of the historic and philosophical background gives that kind of independence from prejudices of his generation from which most scientists are suffering. This independence created by philosophical insight is—in my opinion—the mark of distinction between a mere artisan or specialist and a real seeker after truth. (Einstein to Thornton, 7 December 1944, EA 61-574)

That Einstein meant what he said about the relevance of philosophy to physics is evidenced by the fact that he had been saying more or less the same thing for decades. Thus, in a 1916 memorial note for Ernst Mach, a physicist and philosopher to whom Einstein owed a special debt, he wrote:

How does it happen that a properly endowed natural scientist comes to concern himself with epistemology? Is there no more valuable work in his specialty? I hear many of my colleagues saying, and I sense it from many more, that they feel this way. I cannot share this sentiment. When I think about the ablest students whom I have encountered in my teaching, that is, those who distinguish themselves by their independence of judgment and not merely their quick-wittedness, I can affirm that they had a vigorous interest in epistemology. They happily began discussions about the goals and methods of science, and they showed unequivocally, through their tenacity in defending their views, that the subject seemed important to them. Indeed, one should not be surprised at this. (Einstein 1916, 101)

How, exactly, does the philosophical habit of mind provide the physicist with such “independence of judgment”? Einstein goes on to explain:

Concepts that have proven useful in ordering things easily achieve such an authority over us that we forget their earthly origins and accept them as unalterable givens. Thus they come to be stamped as “necessities of thought,” “a priori givens,” etc. The path of scientific advance is often made impassable for a long time through such errors. For that reason, it is by no means an idle game if we become practiced in analyzing the long commonplace concepts and exhibiting those circumstances upon which their justification and usefulness depend, how they have grown up, individually, out of the givens of experience. By this means, their all-too-great authority will be broken. They will be removed if they cannot be properly legitimated, corrected if their correlation with given things be far too superfluous, replaced by others if a new system can be established that we prefer for whatever reason. (Einstein 1916, 102)

The place of philosophy in physics was a theme to which Einstein returned time and again, it being clearly an issue of deep importance to him. Sometimes he adopts a modest pose, as in this oft-quoted remark from his 1933 Spencer Lecture:

If you wish to learn from the theoretical physicist anything about the methods which he uses, I would give you the following piece of advice: Don't listen to his words, examine his achievements. For to the discoverer in that field, the constructions of his imagination appear so necessary and so natural that he is apt to treat them not as the creations of his thoughts but as given realities. (Einstein 1933, 5–6)

More typical, however, is the confident pose he struck three years later in “Physics and Reality”:

It has often been said, and certainly not without justification, that the man of science is a poor philosopher. Why then should it not be the right thing for the physicist to let the philosopher do the philosophizing? Such might indeed be the right thing at a time when the physicist believes he has at his disposal a rigid system of fundamental concepts and fundamental laws which are so well established that waves of doubt can not reach them; but it can not be right at a time when the very foundations of physics itself have become problematic as they are now. At a time like the present, when experience forces us to seek a newer and more solid foundation, the physicist cannot simply surrender to the philosopher the critical contemplation of the theoretical foundations; for, he himself knows best, and feels more surely where the shoe pinches. In looking for a new foundation, he must try to make clear in his own mind just how far the concepts which he uses are justified, and are necessities. (Einstein 1936, 349)

What kind of philosophy might we expect from the philosopher-physicist? One thing that we should not expect from a physicist who takes the philosophical turn in order to help solve fundamental physical problems is a systematic philosophy:

The reciprocal relationship of epistemology and science is of noteworthy kind. They are dependent upon each other. Epistemology without contact with science becomes an empty scheme. Science without epistemology is—insofar as it is thinkable at all—primitive and muddled. (Einstein 1949, 683–684)"

I was also a bit annoyed at Peterson beating around the bush, but the more you read/listen to him, the more you understand he's not trying to dodge anything, it's just the way he operates. This is especially highlighted in his exchange with Sam Harris.

Just to be clear, I have no problem with him "beating around the bush." I wouldn't even characterize it as such. He's just painstaking in his efforts to clarify his concepts and delineate his positions. Even so, it's still possible for people like Harris who are very rigid in their thinking to be unable to follow him and his lines of thinking, but if you make the effort, it's both possible and rewarding, and importantly not at the expense of clarity or coherence (hence not, in my book, "beating around the bush").

But you'll also notice that Peterson doesn't only "stand up" for religion because he "believes" it, but because he believes the foundation of religion has certain axioms that are not otherwise necessary, a point he articulates in this lecture.

And this is the key. This is what I've been getting at with my constant comparisons to Campbell. It's also why he'd probably disagree with me on Nietzsche. He'd likely feel that there was too much good to throw it all out on account of the bad. That seems to be his position on religion. It might be fantastical and it has clearly been perverted in all manner of ways, but the good is good enough in his mind to be worth taking even with the bad it comes with.
 
Clearly, you're unaware of Einstein's philosophical grounding. Einstein's own words are italicized. Prepare to cringe:

https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/einstein-philscience/

"Late in 1944, Albert Einstein received a letter from Robert Thornton, a young African-American philosopher of science who had just finished his Ph.D. under Herbert Feigl at Minnesota and was beginning a new job teaching physics at the University of Puerto Rico, Mayaguez. He had written to solicit from Einstein a few supportive words on behalf of his efforts to introduce “as much of the philosophy of science as possible” into the modern physics course that he was to teach the following spring (Thornton to Einstein, 28 November 1944, EA 61–573). Here is what Einstein offered in reply:

I fully agree with you about the significance and educational value of methodology as well as history and philosophy of science. So many people today—and even professional scientists—seem to me like somebody who has seen thousands of trees but has never seen a forest. A knowledge of the historic and philosophical background gives that kind of independence from prejudices of his generation from which most scientists are suffering. This independence created by philosophical insight is—in my opinion—the mark of distinction between a mere artisan or specialist and a real seeker after truth. (Einstein to Thornton, 7 December 1944, EA 61-574)

That Einstein meant what he said about the relevance of philosophy to physics is evidenced by the fact that he had been saying more or less the same thing for decades. Thus, in a 1916 memorial note for Ernst Mach, a physicist and philosopher to whom Einstein owed a special debt, he wrote:

How does it happen that a properly endowed natural scientist comes to concern himself with epistemology? Is there no more valuable work in his specialty? I hear many of my colleagues saying, and I sense it from many more, that they feel this way. I cannot share this sentiment. When I think about the ablest students whom I have encountered in my teaching, that is, those who distinguish themselves by their independence of judgment and not merely their quick-wittedness, I can affirm that they had a vigorous interest in epistemology. They happily began discussions about the goals and methods of science, and they showed unequivocally, through their tenacity in defending their views, that the subject seemed important to them. Indeed, one should not be surprised at this. (Einstein 1916, 101)

How, exactly, does the philosophical habit of mind provide the physicist with such “independence of judgment”? Einstein goes on to explain:

Concepts that have proven useful in ordering things easily achieve such an authority over us that we forget their earthly origins and accept them as unalterable givens. Thus they come to be stamped as “necessities of thought,” “a priori givens,” etc. The path of scientific advance is often made impassable for a long time through such errors. For that reason, it is by no means an idle game if we become practiced in analyzing the long commonplace concepts and exhibiting those circumstances upon which their justification and usefulness depend, how they have grown up, individually, out of the givens of experience. By this means, their all-too-great authority will be broken. They will be removed if they cannot be properly legitimated, corrected if their correlation with given things be far too superfluous, replaced by others if a new system can be established that we prefer for whatever reason. (Einstein 1916, 102)

The place of philosophy in physics was a theme to which Einstein returned time and again, it being clearly an issue of deep importance to him. Sometimes he adopts a modest pose, as in this oft-quoted remark from his 1933 Spencer Lecture:

If you wish to learn from the theoretical physicist anything about the methods which he uses, I would give you the following piece of advice: Don't listen to his words, examine his achievements. For to the discoverer in that field, the constructions of his imagination appear so necessary and so natural that he is apt to treat them not as the creations of his thoughts but as given realities. (Einstein 1933, 5–6)

More typical, however, is the confident pose he struck three years later in “Physics and Reality”:

It has often been said, and certainly not without justification, that the man of science is a poor philosopher. Why then should it not be the right thing for the physicist to let the philosopher do the philosophizing? Such might indeed be the right thing at a time when the physicist believes he has at his disposal a rigid system of fundamental concepts and fundamental laws which are so well established that waves of doubt can not reach them; but it can not be right at a time when the very foundations of physics itself have become problematic as they are now. At a time like the present, when experience forces us to seek a newer and more solid foundation, the physicist cannot simply surrender to the philosopher the critical contemplation of the theoretical foundations; for, he himself knows best, and feels more surely where the shoe pinches. In looking for a new foundation, he must try to make clear in his own mind just how far the concepts which he uses are justified, and are necessities. (Einstein 1936, 349)

What kind of philosophy might we expect from the philosopher-physicist? One thing that we should not expect from a physicist who takes the philosophical turn in order to help solve fundamental physical problems is a systematic philosophy:

The reciprocal relationship of epistemology and science is of noteworthy kind. They are dependent upon each other. Epistemology without contact with science becomes an empty scheme. Science without epistemology is—insofar as it is thinkable at all—primitive and muddled. (Einstein 1949, 683–684)"



Just to be clear, I have no problem with him "beating around the bush." I wouldn't even characterize it as such. He's just painstaking in his efforts to clarify his concepts and delineate his positions. Even so, it's still possible for people like Harris who are very rigid in their thinking to be unable to follow him and his lines of thinking, but if you make the effort, it's both possible and rewarding, and importantly not at the expense of clarity or coherence (hence not, in my book, "beating around the bush").



And this is the key. This is what I've been getting at with my constant comparisons to Campbell. It's also why he'd probably disagree with me on Nietzsche. He'd likely feel that there was too much good to throw it all out on account of the bad. That seems to be his position on religion. It might be fantastical and it has clearly been perverted in all manner of ways, but the good is good enough in his mind to be worth taking even with the bad it comes with.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't Nietzsche's Uberman try to resolve the vacuum left by the removal of religion in a way that Peterson's "Chesterton's Fence" objection seems to ignore, in part? It seems to me that most people who reject theism never adhere to a pure nihilistic perspective, so the objection, while theoretically true, doesn't seem to materialize into a real problem. Or perhaps "true" atheism has never really been tried, and his objection is a cautionary tale of what could be if society actually accepted materialism. I'm not sure, I'm just throwing that out there.
 
Correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't Nietzsche's Uberman try to resolve the vacuum left by the removal of religion in a way that Peterson's "Chesterton's Fence" objection seems to ignore, in part? It seems to me that most people who reject theism never adhere to a pure nihilistic perspective, so the objection, while theoretically true, doesn't seem to materialize into a real problem. Or perhaps "true" atheism has never really been tried, and his objection is a cautionary tale of what could be if society actually accepted materialism. I'm not sure, I'm just throwing that out there.

I think that's fair to say.

Nietzsche knew that (a) God was dead, meaning the value systems produced by the "slave morality" of religion were no longer valid; (b) In the absence of God/those old value systems, humans would need a new value system; (c) The Overman would be the great individual who would be able to lead the masses into the future (he liked to talk of the philosopher "of tomorrow and the day after tomorrow").

Unfortunately, he had no idea what this Overman would be like or what kind of value system he would/should come up with. But the charged elitist rhetoric and the talk of "tyrants" and shit like that made it very easy for a nutjob like Hitler to step forward and proclaim himself the ideal Nietzschean Overman.

In that respect, I quite like "Chesterton's Fence." If you're not sure what exactly you're fighting against, what you'd like to improve, how you'd like to improve it, etc., then you should probably take a step back and gather your thoughts before picking up your hammer and smashing shit (it's too bad Peterson couldn't have told Nietzsche to clean his room ;)).

Beyond Nietzsche, to your point about how "most people who reject theism never adhere to a pure nihilistic perspective," I agree 100%. I've actually never met a "pure" nihilist. I don't know how you could live as one for long before either killing yourself or trying to kill everyone around you. What I have experienced is that it's the people who are atheists or who generally don't care about supernatural stuff who are the most life affirming and the most committed to their earthly existence. On the flip side, and with more than a little irony, the most nihilistic people I've encountered are the ones who call themselves not religious but "spiritual." It's precisely their nihilism that creates in them the desire for something to alleviate their negativity, so they latch onto something otherworldly because they're so nihilistic regarding this world (incidentally, I highly recommend the Netflix movie The Discovery with respect to these issues).

So, if anything, I'd take the idea of atheism resulting in nihilism and switch it to say that nihilism often results in theism, or at the very least is one of the main factors in theism.
 
Clearly, you're unaware of Einstein's philosophical grounding. Einstein's own words are italicized. Prepare to cringe:

Lol. This is amateurish at best.

I suppose if a great thinker noted they were influenced by Sesame Street at some point we should give similar credence to its "grounding"? Laughable sophistry on display. What a dodge.

Again, philosophy does nothing. The Jordan Petersons of the world, the Jungs of the world and the like's contributions are gruesomely infinitesimal compared to actual scientists making the world a better place in the laboratory. One Newton has more value than 10 billion of these types. I speak for everyone when I say this.
 
Lol. This is amateurish at best.

I suppose if a great thinker noted they were influenced by Sesame Street at some point we should give similar credence to its "grounding"? Laughable sophistry on display. What a dodge.

Again, philosophy does nothing. The Jordan Petersons of the world, the Jungs of the world and the like's contributions are gruesomely infinitesimal compared to actual scientists making the world a better place in the laboratory. One Newton has more value than 10 billion of these types. I speak for everyone when I say this.

Jordan Peterson is inspiring many people to turn their lives around for the better. That has to count for something.
 
Jordan Peterson is inspiring many people to turn their lives around for the better. That has to count for something.
Sadly, for most of those people, spending 3 hours a day listening to Jordan Peterson is the improvement.
 
Lol. This is amateurish at best.

I suppose if a great thinker noted they were influenced by Sesame Street at some point we should give similar credence to its "grounding"? Laughable sophistry on display. What a dodge.

Again, philosophy does nothing. The Jordan Petersons of the world, the Jungs of the world and the like's contributions are gruesomely infinitesimal compared to actual scientists making the world a better place in the laboratory. One Newton has more value than 10 billion of these types. I speak for everyone when I say this.

I think you're arbitrarily limiting the options between picking a scientist of Newtons caliber and Sesame street. We can have both you know.

Peterson can influence the minds of millions of young men in a positive way and Newton can look for hidden secrets in the bible and try turning worthless material into gold. It's all ok.
 
I think that's fair to say.

Nietzsche knew that (a) God was dead, meaning the value systems produced by the "slave morality" of religion were no longer valid; (b) In the absence of God/those old value systems, humans would need a new value system; (c) The Overman would be the great individual who would be able to lead the masses into the future (he liked to talk of the philosopher "of tomorrow and the day after tomorrow").

Unfortunately, he had no idea what this Overman would be like or what kind of value system he would/should come up with. But the charged elitist rhetoric and the talk of "tyrants" and shit like that made it very easy for a nutjob like Hitler to step forward and proclaim himself the ideal Nietzschean Overman.

In that respect, I quite like "Chesterton's Fence." If you're not sure what exactly you're fighting against, what you'd like to improve, how you'd like to improve it, etc., then you should probably take a step back and gather your thoughts before picking up your hammer and smashing shit (it's too bad Peterson couldn't have told Nietzsche to clean his room ;)).

Beyond Nietzsche, to your point about how "most people who reject theism never adhere to a pure nihilistic perspective," I agree 100%. I've actually never met a "pure" nihilist. I don't know how you could live as one for long before either killing yourself or trying to kill everyone around you. What I have experienced is that it's the people who are atheists or who generally don't care about supernatural stuff who are the most life affirming and the most committed to their earthly existence. On the flip side, and with more than a little irony, the most nihilistic people I've encountered are the ones who call themselves not religious but "spiritual." It's precisely their nihilism that creates in them the desire for something to alleviate their negativity, so they latch onto something otherworldly because they're so nihilistic regarding this world (incidentally, I highly recommend the Netflix movie The Discovery with respect to these issues).

So, if anything, I'd take the idea of atheism resulting in nihilism and switch it to say that nihilism often results in theism, or at the very least is one of the main factors in theism.

Great post, I like your objectivity. The last part is especially intriguing, it undermines Peterson's point about Dostoevsky and nihilism. I don't know if there is a balance here, maybe Peterson is right in theory, but not in practice. Is human nature, for whatever reason, unable to abide without the axioms that Peterson attributes to religion such that you can never actually remove them even if you remove religion? Can Chesterton's fence be torn down without much risk because the fence is the result of the very axioms it espouses, not the other way around?

But then again, there are some real monsters that walk among us, and there have been some pretty horrific societies in the past, which incidentally Peterson uses to make his case. There is a strong case to be made for what Peterson describes as pure and naked self-interest existing in the absence of any foundation.

Interesting topic, for sure, but for me personally, part of the reason I believe in God is because theism is a way I can reconcile some of these things; It's difficult to accept that these axioms are the result of evolutionary biology because it's damn near impossible to act as if that's true, so I guess I agree with you after all, though I still caution in tearing down the fence. My instinct is to say that it also works to reinforce what's already there, so it's a cause and effect in a sense, i.e. you're both right and this is about degrees of nihilism- you don't want to tear it down because it helps, but in it's absence, the void will lead you to rebuild it.

I'm not even sure I'm making sense, but I like your posts, I can pretty much throw anything at you and you not only get it, you get it better than me.
 
@Rusk @ReAnimator Reagan @Caveat @dontsnitch

Have you guys watched this?



If you're interested, this is the most explicit and detailed discussion of his views on theology/religion and belief in "God"/"Jesus" that I've yet to find.


I have seen parts 1-7 so far of his biblical stories and they are great. I really am interested to see how far he takes it. I really think he will never publicly say anything he cannot verify with science of some sort. If he were to believe in the literal resurrection of Jesus he would never publicly state so as it is outside of science. And that jurisdiction is really the classic christian apologists who will go into the witnesses and etc.

But I think Christianity would be doing itself a great service to incorporated his teachings on the mythic stories into their preaching.
 
So Peterson and Saad and them booked another place for their talk that got cancelled. This time it's for a much bigger venue, the Canadian Christian College on November 11 (Remembrance Day). Well the commie ass freaks who got the first once cancelled are already scheming to get this once scrapped too.



DINTfeQW0AEn3wJ.jpg


Fuck that shit. I hope their talk goes through as planned.
 
Canada is going full retard with this "The Nazis are Coming" fear-mongering nonsense.




 
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Jordan Peterson and Bret Weinstein are going to be on Joe Rogan this Friday:

 
haven't watched too many of his videos, but my friend posted a few of his lectures discussing religion/Christianity which left me unmoved. I think my friend thought he was gonna outsmart me or something but...

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When a guy like Peterson is having his "hate speeches" shut down by radicals there is no slippery slope left.

We jumped off of a cliff. Now we're lay there with a broken neck "waiting to see how the situation plays out". Guess.
 
Canada is going full retard with this "The Nazis are Coming" fear-mongering nonsense.






Yea the comedy show was apparently cancelled after the venue had been vandalized. The Ryerson event was cancelled because of safety concerns, seeing as how the leftist activists had threatened to cause a disruption. When you give kids whatever they want after a tantrum, don't expect for them to keep doing it. Leftist activists all over North America have been emboldened by the treatment they get for their threatening, destructive and sometimes even violent behaviour and I think it's only gonna escalate.

I fully expect them to try some fuckery for the rescheduled event with Peterson and Saad. The far-left in Toronto right now has to be one of the saddest and most retarded groups in history. You've never seen a group of people so desperate for some kind of fascist resurgence. I swear you've never seen a group of creatures so pitiful that they're actually envious of places that are going through serious racial/political tension. They're so determined to bring that here because they're bored I guess and all that stuff is big in the media. Our local media is constantly blaring about Islamophobia and racism and transphobia. There's Antifa posters all over downtown, warning about how they're gonna kick Nazi ass. What Nazis? Peterson? This city proves that far-left freaks will never be happy because this place should be a paradise for them.
 
Like here's an example. There's this all-night art festival here every year called Nuit Blanche. They just put these art installations all over the streets in the downtown core and people walk around all night checking them out, like a street festival. Well this year they said for the first time since they've started doing it, there will be a theme for all the artwork, a common thread. You can guess what it is: social justice,"resistance", etc including some kind of tribute to the Russian Revolution lmao. These people are nuts.

https://nowtoronto.com/art-and-books/art/nuit-blanche-2017-will-be-all-about-protest-and-resistance/
 
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