The Official Luta Livre thread

[Kforcer]

It used to feature pins, but then they abolished pins in luta livre, in order to distinguish it from catch-wrestling, which was being associated with worked matches in Brazil. Luta livre and catch were basically interchangeable terms at one point and then, due to the stigma of worked matches, Brazilian practitioners sought to distinguish them from one another.

I should add that there are luta livre camps in Brazil that refer to themselves as "Brazilian Catch" and have hosted events featuring pins and submissions, such as the Copa De Euclydes Hatem:

 

[Mulletenthusiast]

Hey, i live in Santa Catarina ( Brasil). Do you know some gym that i can find LL? I would do in Astra Top team, but they closed due the pandemic. I know there is Marcelo Brigadeiro in my state, but i think he only trains professional athletes.

 

[Kforcer]

Hey, i live in Santa Catarina ( Brasil). Do you know some gym that i can find LL? I would do in Astra Top team, but they closed due the pandemic. I know there is Marcelo Brigadeiro in my state, but i think he only trains professional athletes.

I don't think that's the case with Brigadeiro, unless something's changed. I would at least give it a shot, the man's a grappling genius.

 

[LLJack]

Luta Livre fan here from Germany, first post in sherdog , no rank just train from time to time and just love the art , one reason is because in general it is underrated and unappreciated.
It was asked before why is LL not popular and is nogi bjj realy LL? Maybe the answer lies below.

Looking to train again now that gyms opened, i stumbled on this one https://gtjj.de/ Game Theory Jiu Jitsu , their Head Coach (Sven) is a Luta Livre Black Belt from CCC and the other coaches if not BBs are also LL ranked (one is a LL Brown Belt in an older CCC photo). I googled and found the Head Coach is also ranked as a Purple in BJJ, so in this Jiu Jitsu school the teachers are Lutadores , in reality they teach Luta Livre in NoGi class, they call it Jiu Jitsu with zero mention of LL (Helio pics , Maeda rashgurds etc.) and probably bring a BJJ Black Belt when they give belts to the students in NoGi and i ll make a guess that this happened with brazilians before, i think Marcelo Brigadeiro mentioned something about it before.

Have a nice day

 

[pankrat]

Hello guys, I will be doing an Instagram live interview with Luta Livre Legend, Johil de Oliveira this coming tuesday. It will be at 21:00 PM, Brazilian time.

If you have any questions for him post them up here that I will ask him.

It will be mostly done on Portuguese, but if you join in I will gladly translate some parts of it to English, no worries. Thank you!!

Can we check the interview somewhere?

Would you be able to ask him about what he thinks about Euclydes Hatem and his contemporaries? And also whether or Cromado and Pequeno had lots of experience in grappling and vale tudo prior to their debut fights in Shooto, where they guillotined legends Caol Uno and Noboru Asahi respectively. I'd also be curious as to what he thinks about the similarities between Japanese catch-wrestling and luta livre and if he feels any special relationship with it. They both have an aggressive pace, lots of standing submission entries and of course, they love their leglocks.

And if you can express to him all my appreciation and gratitude for him as a fan and my admiration for his courage in continuing to fight under incredibly difficult circumstances, then I would appreciate it! Thanks!

Interesting questions. Did they got answered?

 

[LoClohs]

Luta Livre fan here from Germany

I heard that LL in there is very strong. Super interesting.

 

[listrahtes]

I heard that LL in there is very strong. Super interesting.

It is because one association has had quite agressive business methods in marketing but also in treating its competitors (not that this is all bad) and there were in general some very enthusiastic people about LL in Germany.
I visited a seminar years back but really I couldnt see a difference to BJJ. Sure it was talked about but I found the differences highly theoretical without much practical application. F.e. they talked about LL "quick kills" as LL specialty fast ways to end a fight. It imo was
the training of looking for a sub without position before submission. Good idea to focus also on that but you find this in bjj just the same depending on the school / focus. There even


The difference between bjj styles is bigger then LL to BJJ.

In the beginning I am sure there was a big difference but that has ceased to exist. Nowadays its more about in what kind of competitions you want to participate and train accordingly to that.
You will find BJJ with wrestling, without, focus on stalling, leg locks, 10th planet.....etc. As the pool of participants is much bigger in bjj that is were submission ground fighting gets developed further.
Its a numbers game.

 

[LoClohs]

It is because one association has had quite agressive business methods in marketing but also in treating its competitors (not that this is all bad) and there were in general some very enthusiastic people about LL in Germany.
I visited a seminar years back but really I couldnt see a difference to BJJ. Sure it was talked about but I found the differences highly theoretical without much practical application. F.e. they talked about LL "quick kills" as LL specialty fast ways to end a fight. It imo was
the training of looking for a sub without position before submission. Good idea to focus also on that but you find this in bjj just the same depending on the school / focus. There even


The difference between bjj styles is bigger then LL to BJJ.

In the beginning I am sure there was a big difference but that has ceased to exist. Nowadays its more about in what kind of competitions you want to participate and train accordingly to that.
You will find BJJ with wrestling, without, focus on stalling, leg locks, 10th planet.....etc. As the pool of participants is much bigger in bjj that is were submission ground fighting gets developed further.
Its a numbers game.

Oh definitely. They are similar, not in small part because of their common origin. With both having Dudu and Maeda (through Loanzi) in their line.

The Catch Wrestling in BJJ (@the_catch_wrestling_in_bjj) • Fotos e vídeos do Instagram

But you have all the extremely successful marketing of BJJ.

As for the LL guys trying to create a narrative to justify people learning LL over BJJ, I don't blame them, it's up to the students to know what they're looking for and learn both even if they only raise one of the flags. Including by example of BJJ itself, who shamelessly learns everything, even if in the end it only raises his own flag. Fair game in my opinion.

 

[uchubaco]

In regards of the diferences between BJJ and Luta Livre, nowadays they are mostly the same in some aspects...Grappling will be Grappling in spite of the name, but I will share some differences if possible.

The first of all is the Belt System. In Luta Livre we have some "middle belts" to call it in a way.

In Jiu Jitsu grades are the following:
White>Blue>Purple>Brown>Black

In Luta Livre grades are the following:
White>Yellow>Orange>Blue>Purple>Brown>Black

I feel that this way of grading in a way helps the one who trains because they feel that are progressing and helps them also in competitons. For example in BJJ you have the Forever White Belt who has been training on and off for two or three years and will be competing against a six month White Belt, because they are White Belts.

Another difference would be the way they Grapple. For example the "meta game" of BJJ is Takedown, Pass Guard, Side Control, Knee on Belly, Mount, Submission, in other words, control or in competitons make points and finally Submit.

In Luta Livre would be always attack, don't think about points, always think of attacking and if in inferior positions, still attack or escape. A good example of this would be Cyril Gane going for a Heel Hook against Ngannou...he had the superior position and when losing it, instead of improving or stabilizing, he went for the Submission.

Another difference is the Guard, in BJJ the main goal is when in Guard to not have it Passed at all...in Luta Livre we prefer instead of the Closed Guard, to use the Butterfly Guard, because in Closed Guard, we can get our foot caught in Leg Locks, in Butterfly Guard we can Control, Sweep and Stand Up while "hiding" our feet.

Also, Guard for Luta Livre is an inferior position, so it is considered a position to either go for the Submission or Sweep, not to stall or Control.

 

[uchubaco]

Well sherbros, a lot of stuff has been happening over in the Luta Livre front...a lot of issues that have been happening between Black Belts and/or Academies that have been not talked about due to respect are coming out.

The most recent is the beef between Hugo Duarte and Alexandre Cacareco. For a lot of years, a lot of people thought that Cacareco was a Black Belt under Duarte (me included), but it seems that this wasn´t the case at all. Cacareco and Duarte were linked due to their teacher, Brunocilla and that was the extent of their relationship.

A few weeks ago, Hugo Duarte was a guest on a popular MMA Podcast in which he was asked about Cacareco, and he started to talk that he was the one who brought up Cacareco from the beginning and taught him everything. He also added that he let Cacareco live at his Academy for a long time and after he started to have fame, he got him a flat, a car and an sponsorship with the town mayor. According to Duarte the rift between them happened because Cacareco was training behind his back with Carlson Gracie and he saw a photo of it, calling Cacareco out and letting Carlson know which lead to Cacareco being thrown out or Carlsons because he was a "Creonte".

It seems that those words made their way into Cacarecos ears because the is telling a much, MUCH different story. According to Cacareco they only were training partners. Brunocilla in the late 90s wanted to step out of teaching because of health issues and asked Duarte to take over the mantle, but Cacareco says that he (Duarte) only taught at Brunocillas place for a really short time because it was far away from his home, so he asked Brunocilla if he could continue the trainings at his own academy and Brunocilla asked Cacareco to go to help Duarte to teach.

Cacareco says that Duarte only shared trainings with him, he did not teach him anything and did not live at all at Duartes academy, he had his own flat, the town sponsorship was given to him much before that. The issue seemed to stem from the fact that Cacareco wanting to improve his stand-up decided to go and train with Marco Ruas and Pedro Rizzo (fellow Luta Livre fighters). When Duarte found out he came with an ultimatum: "train with them and never come back or train only with us" and he left Duarte and started to train with Ruas and Rizzo. According to Cacareco, he had a big fight linned up with Paulo Filho after their infamous Grappling match, in which Duarte started to talk behind his back to Carlson, who was putting together the event, which lead to the fight being cancelled.

Both stories totally contradict what the other one says...but the thing is the following, Cacareco has been spilling a lot of stuff about his relationship with Duarte and none of it it´s flattering to him. From being ridiculed for his brawls with Rickson and his fights with Kerr to sharing some personal conversations which confirm what Cacareco says. Duarte on the other hand, hasn´t said a thing about what Cacareco is saying, plus there is the fact that a BIG rift is happening between the 90s Old School Luta Livre guard and Academia Budokan. It is worth mentioning that Hugo NEVER trained with them and was given a degree on his Black Belt by Joao Ricardo. Leading to him siding with them but not being seen in the best light by a LOT of people.

 

[Submission]

Most of the Luta Livre guys have been involved in this kind of bullshit of talking about each other their entire existence. I think it's one of the main reasons they never grew.

 

[xMTDx]

Cacareco represented and excelled. Duarte did not. I think the rift is also emerging because the Brunocilla lineage is direct from Tatu and the Leitao/Ricardo linage is less so. IMO Cacareco is speaking the truth and has nothing to hide. His version of events seems to line up better.

 

[Espurgote]

Most of the Luta Livre guys have been involved in this kind of bullshit of talking about each other their entire existence. I think it's one of the main reasons they never grew.

This, everyday we hear about drama regarding them (LL guys).

 

[uchubaco]

Cacareco represented and excelled. Duarte did not. I think the rift is also emerging because the Brunocilla lineage is direct from Tatu and the Leitao/Ricardo linage is less so. IMO Cacareco is speaking the truth and has nothing to hide. His version of events seems to line up better.

The Leitao lineage isn´t direct at all...the Ricardo in a way is. Beacuse the thing here, is that Ricardo was taught Luta Livre by Hilbernon de Oliveira (Johils father) and Hilbernon trained Luta Livre under a direct student of Tatu for a while. These days a lot of stuff is coming out about the real story of Luta Livre and why some older Mestres are trying to either hide it or ignore it.

 

[LoClohs]

Interesting video (podcast) of Ruas recently talking about how he never "wore the LL shirt" (?) because he didn't like the way of the practitioners. It sheds an interesting light on the history of the martial art. Portuguese only tho

MARCO RUAS - A LENDA CONTA TUDO!!! - YouTube

 

[xMTDx]

The Leitao lineage isn´t direct at all...the Ricardo in a way is. Beacuse the thing here, is that Ricardo was taught Luta Livre by Hilbernon de Oliveira (Johils father) and Hilbernon trained Luta Livre under a direct student of Tatu for a while. These days a lot of stuff is coming out about the real story of Luta Livre and why some older Mestres are trying to either hide it or ignore it.

Exactly! Yet people often look to Leitao as the modern reference point when it is Brunocilla and then JR to a lesser extent. When Elton Silva finally publishes his book on Tatu it will be great! I try to keep in contact with him on and off but hus English is as good as my Portuguese.

 

[LoClohs]

Exactly! Yet people often look to Leitao as the modern reference point when it is Brunocilla and then JR to a lesser extent. When Elton Silva finally publishes his book on Tatu it will be great! I try to keep in contact with him on and off but hus English is as good as my Portuguese.

Elton is the man, love his work!

 

[uchubaco]

A lot of people have ben talking about Luta Livre lately...so to the top

 

[uchubaco]

Exactly! Yet people often look to Leitao as the modern reference point when it is Brunocilla and then JR to a lesser extent. When Elton Silva finally publishes his book on Tatu it will be great! I try to keep in contact with him on and off but hus English is as good as my Portuguese.

One name that you are missing that Elton is making a LOT for people to know about him, is Hilbernon de Oliveira, Johils father.

He was the one who trained Joao Ricardo in Luta Livre. What is more, he was fighting in Vale Tudo since the late 50s and Ricardo started in the late 60s to fight. Joao Ricardo used to say nothing of Hilbernon, then that they were training partners and nowadays that there are photographical evidence that Hilbernon was fighting way before him, he had to accept that he was a student of him.

 

[Kforcer]

These days a lot of stuff is coming out about the real story of Luta Livre and why some older Mestres are trying to either hide it or ignore it.

Can you expound on this? What's the "real story", at least in cliff notes?