The Paradox of Intolerance

[splendica]

The problem is for every one Imam preaching intolerance in the US you will find one (if not more than 5) Christian preacher(s) doing the same about islam or some other faith or minorities...

Whatever you do to one do it to all of them I say...

Yeah right. I've been around hundreds of thousands of Christians, even millions, and have never heard a shred of violence toward any people group ever. Zero. The only shreds of violence I've ever heard were the words of the Westboro Baptist on youtube which speak harsh words only, but don't commit violence. And they're a 40 member sect who no denomination of Christianity call their own.

This false equivalency has to stop. It's a lie. Period. Always has been.

 

[IDL]

I find the comparison frankly ridiculous, I know my father in law who fled China in 67 and emigrated to Canada in 1970 would agree

The comparison would be more accurate against early stages of the cultural revolution, before things really escalated. Largely student based groups running around and attacking what they see as 'right wing' (like Trump rallies and right wing speakers at universities), and now even defacing statues and such, all with communist ideologies behind them.

If he has a good recollection and insight into the Marxist revolution in China I would be curious what he thinks about the cultural Marxism we now are experiencing in the West. CM being a reformulated version of Marxism to apply to developed Western democracies with a large middle class (and thus class based revolution is a non-starter), so instead it is to be undertaken by race, gender, and sexuality in large part. Groups like anti-fa, BLM and many others follow the ideological guidelines.

Obviously very different in nature, but also very similar.

 

[HomeCheese]

But Antifa ARE just as bad as Neo-Nazis. I'm talking specifically about Antifa now, not every day people who went out to protest the alt-right's protest.

I don't know exactly what "antifa" means other than anti fascist. So if you mean anti fascist then certainly I disagree, nazis are worse. By a lot actually.

 

[HomeCheese]

If AntiFa gets their way you will be in a bread line soon, or you will be a statistic added to the number of people killed by communism.

AntiFa is a violent hate group. The Unite the Right people had some hateful assholes in their midst, but they went to the trouble of getting a permit from the government. They also are so insignificant in numbers and denounced by all rational people that they are not a threat.

However, the AntiFa clowns are funded by globalist billionaires and are working with politicians and have strong enough support to force police to receive stand down orders so they can shut down free speech and literally attack people. The KKK/WN crowd would never be free to get violent. They get shut down.

Are you okay with BLM and AntiFa getting freedom from the law? Are you okay with stand down orders allowing them to burn down neighborhoods and bring mob violence with anyone they disagree with? Are you okay with them shutting down free speech on college campuses?

It has gotten to the point where even Adam Corolla has had his speeches shut down due to the threat of violence. I mean, Corolla is a guy who brought us the Man Show. He has absolutely nothing hateful to say.

For shame.








I am sure you hold Muslims to the same standard.

Huh? Dude I feel sorry for you.

 

[MoparOrNoCar]

It does, because of the absolute incompatibility of white supremacy groups does not follow on to the black social movements generally, which is what I can safely assume you're implying. You asked why my idea should apply to white supremacy groups and not whatever other groups you are concerned about. If black supremacy, segregation, subjugation of white people, etc. go hand-in-hand with a movement, then they become more serious threats and need to be addressed differently. Evergreen College is an example of that. Your point about street gangs is a bad point, because street gangs are taken very seriously and virtually every gang member goes to prison.

I don't think it's a bad point. Yes they are taken seriously and the police deal with them but they are still 10000x the threat that white supremacy groups are. They are a much bigger problem than white supremacy has been for the last 100 years or so. It's just funny to me how liberals have taken white supremacy from rednecks up in the hills waiting for something to happen, to the mainstream in just a couple of years. No one gave a shit about these guys for decades until they got stirred up by the liberal media and SJW's using their "nazi" label to label every white person who doesn't fully agree with their ideology.

These white supremacy groups are largely ignored by society as a bunch of toothless hillbillies the same way that society largely ignores the Westboro Baptist Church. Yet in another dumb move by the far left, they drummed up these guys who have mainly sat dormant for decades and put them right back into the thick of it.

All I'm saying is that of all the problems with social justice and society, white supremacy is such a small percentage of it that it doesn't even require addressing. Yet the far left has given them a push from the back card all the way up to the WWE title at Wrestlemania.

 

[Fawlty]

I don't think it's a bad point. Yes they are taken seriously and the police deal with them but they are still 10000x the threat that white supremacy groups are. They are a much bigger problem than white supremacy has been for the last 100 years or so. It's just funny to me how liberals have taken white supremacy from rednecks up in the hills waiting for something to happen, to the mainstream in just a couple of years. No one gave a shit about these guys for decades until they got stirred up by the liberal media and SJW's using their "nazi" label to label every white person who doesn't fully agree with their ideology.

These white supremacy groups are largely ignored by society as a bunch of toothless hillbillies the same way that society largely ignores the Westboro Baptist Church. Yet in another dumb move by the far left, they drummed up these guys who have mainly sat dormant for decades and put them right back into the thick of it.

All I'm saying is that of all the problems with social justice and society, white supremacy is such a small percentage of it that it doesn't even require addressing. Yet the far left has given them a push from the back card all the way up to the WWE title at Wrestlemania.

But you were using the problem of street crime to divert attention from the other problem. They are both problems. People didn't care about the WS groups as much because we succeeded in snuffing out their influence. Now that has changed, so it's time to get back to it.

 

[Mark Hunts FIST]

Karl Popper, Jewish philosopher who fled from Nazis in the 1930s

Saw this on Reddit this morning and thought it was interesting food for thought. I don't support violent protests/counterprotest, but it helped me realize that there is probably no peaceful way for intolerant ideology to flourish peacefully in a tolerant society, and vice versa. Any thoughts?

There have been Nazi/KKK rallies the last 20 years with no violence. Hate wasn't spreading like wildfire. Most of us accepted them as being dumbasses.

Now you have the counter protest which bring is the violent element that didn't exist before which also brings the recruiting element do nazis that didn't exist before.

 

[KnightTemplar]

Tolerance is not the same as embrace or acquiesence.

Let the idiots protest if they have the proper permits. Let them spew their idiotic messages. Debate them, shame them, monitor them and take appropriate defensive measures.

/Thread

 

[Orgasmo]

I think people confuse tolerance with acceptance. You can tolerate what others have to say. White supremacists think they are a superior race. They did nothing to earn their skin color other than being conceived by white parents, which they had no say in. It's a ridiculous thing to be proud of, but it's their right to do it. I can tolerate them boasting about it at rallies, but doesn't mean I don't think they're a bunch of morons.

Similarly, I think transgenderism is a mental illness and "Gay Pride" is ridiculous. You don't see me showing up in mask and disrupting their parades through violence. I don't accept their view, but I can tolerate their expression of it.

That's what makes a free and democratic society. That is the real essence of classical liberalism.

 

[MoparOrNoCar]

But you were using the problem of street crime to divert attention from the other problem. They are both problems. People didn't care about the WS groups as much because we succeeded in snuffing out their influence. Now that has changed, so it's time to get back to it.

It's not diverting attention. If you have two boats sinking and one has 100 people and the other has 5 people, you concentrate on the boat with 100 people because you can save more.

Neo nazis have been almost completely ignored for decades. Nothing changed with them other than the fact that the liberals and their media put them back at the forefront because they needed an enemy. White supremacists have been protesting for years and years but there has been almost no lack of media coverage because no one gave a shit about them. Once again, crazy liberals have completely shot themselves in the foot by putting these people on the front page every day. Giving them coverage that otherwise wouldn't be there. That strategy backfired during the elections but they don't learn because almost nothing they seem to do seems to be thought about critically. It's always a reaction to step 1 without thinking about what the next 5 steps are going to be.

It's on a smaller scale but it's basically how our government tries to build tension with other countries to create and enemy and start a war. I know most liberals are completely against that but hypocrisy knows no bounds with these people so it's always ok to them as long as they think they are right in doing it.

 

[Patrick Jane]

Tolerance isn't a virtue, to begin with. It just means don't stand up against anything basically. A tolerant society is a society of dairy cows. Good for milking and farming.

A tolerant society is also easily conquered.

 

[superpunch]

But you were using the problem of street crime to divert attention from the other problem. They are both problems. People didn't care about the WS groups as much because we succeeded in snuffing out their influence. Now that has changed, so it's time to get back to it.

They didn't magically get influence back. The white nationalist groups are being given influence back. The left has gone so far insane that the white nationalists now have legitimate, rational viewpoints that over 70% of the population agrees with for the first time since 1955. Such as not deleting history and not burning books. Where did this stuff come from? It's not the left that was winning politics until 2016.

The left needs to turn down their dial on the culture wars. What little, stuttering power the white nationalists now have -- the left gave it to them.

 

[BEER]

I haven't read through the entire thread, so I apologize if I sound like a broken record:

There is nothing wrong with the [largely simplistic] philosophical idea of "The Paradox of Intolerance". The problem arrives when people take it to mean that you leverage violence against ideas that society labels as inherently harmful.

Being non-violent does not signal "tolerance". If that were true, contemporary Neo-Nazis and other white supremacy groups would be hailed as bastions for tolerance, as their overall rates of violence are pretty low. I don't tolerate Neo-Nazis, but I also don't impose violence against them. "Sunshine is the best disinfectant"; I prefer to drag their ideas into public and let them crucify themselves.

The problem is in the idea that violence is okay against those with heinous views; It's subjective. Who decides which views we deem "heinous"? What happens when they decide against you?

 

[goldennirvana]

I don't know exactly what "antifa" means other than anti fascist. So if you mean anti fascist then certainly I disagree, nazis are worse. By a lot actually.

False. Antifa aren't simply 'anti-fascist' and apolitical. Antifa is made up of communists, marxists, and other far leftists. If you think communists & marxists aren't as bad as Nazis, you're either one yourself, or you're just plain ignorant.

 

[Jorge Luis Borges]

The problem is for every one Imam preaching intolerance in the US you will find one (if not more than 5) Christian preacher(s) doing the same about islam or some other faith or minorities...

Whatever you do to one do it to all of them I say...

You think there are more Christian preachers inciting violence than Muslim imams? Lol? Well for sure the imams are better at it given their greater success with one fifth the manpower.

 

[SaiWa]

You think there are more Christian preachers inciting violence than Muslim imams? Lol? Well for sure the imams are better at it given their greater success with one fifth the manpower.

Inside the United States? Yes. Including Outside and abroad then hell no.

 

[ocfightfan]

This smacks of a semantic game. Everyone and I mean EVERYONE tolerates some things but not others. Tolerance as it gets used by the left is imposing their politically correct criteria on other people through coercive governmental control.

 

[HomeCheese]

False. Antifa aren't simply 'anti-fascist' and apolitical. Antifa is made up of communists, marxists, and other far leftists. If you think communists & marxists aren't as bad as Nazis, you're either one yourself, or you're just plain ignorant.

I like to think I know a lot of people and I don't know a single one that says they are a communist or a marxist. I never ever hear people talk about that stuff either. Growing up in Berkeley I certainly knew people that claimed to be communists and I promise you they were much better than a nazi. Much better.

When was the last time a communist went into a church and shot people just because of their race or drove their car into a crowd on purpose?

 

[goldennirvana]

I like to think I know a lot of people and I don't know a single one that says they are a communist or a marxist. I never ever hear people talk about that stuff either.

Anecdotal.

Growing up in Berkeley I certainly knew people that claimed to be communists and I promise you they were much better than a nazi. Much better.

The evil of communism & marxism doesn't start until they gain momentum and get some power. Are you completely ignorant of the communist/marxist purges of Russia & China? There is zero difference between them and Nazis as far as how evil they are. Their ideology differs, but the evil they are capable of is both on an equal footing. Do some reading about it.

When was the last time a communist went into a church and shot people just because of their race or drove their car into a crowd on purpose?

Communists & marxists have no need to do that when they have little-to-no power, and not on the basis of race. However communists & marxists were slaughtering Christians and many other religious folk in Russia & China during their revolutions. Again, do some reading on it. The far left has racked up a body count of at least 100 million. But somehow you don't think they're as evil as Nazis.

How old are you? Because you use child-like logic.

 

[Islam Imamate]

I think if you were a farmer from the Ukraine in the early 20th century there would be no question as to communism's intolerance. TBH you shouldn't even have to be. All it takes is an honest look at the historical record and it's an extraordinary blind spot if you can't connect the dots between communism and intolerance.

I don't want to derail this thread but its odd to talk about the intolerance of communism as if capitalism is its opposite in terms of tolerance when its clearly not. When democracy becomes antithetical to capitalism then capitalism shows its intolerance. Thankfully it was mostly the third world that learned that lesson...