Trans Pacific Partnership - continuing the conservative assault on working people

Discussion in 'The War Room' started by Aegon Spengler, Jun 25, 2015.

  1. Rod1

    Rod1 Titanium Belt

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  2. Anung Un Rama

    Anung Un Rama The Right Hand of Doom Platinum Member

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    Look, if you're going to answer that these countries already have this and that so TPP doesn't make a difference then why argue for or against TPP at all; all of these countries essentially already have free trade...? Obviously this agreement is building on previous agreements, yeah?

    With regards to drug patents, TPP weakens everything. It weakens the standards of earning a patent in the first place and it goes on and on.
    It makes it easier for companies to get patents, protect patents, and extend patents.

    So its okay that corruption exists because the international courts will solve everything? C'mon man. Just punt if you don't have a real answer.

    Well, its obviously unclear to you because I never even suggested that US corporations were dictating local politics. So I guess just keep on keeping making accusations and misrepresenting my posts, even after I've cleared them up, and hide behind "but you're confusing me".

    .
    Exactly. The US wanted it. The other countries didn't. TPP included it anyhow. Dictated to.

    yeah, I already answered this for you.

    I'm not sure what you're trying to say here.

    Crestor received 1 or 2 patent extensions due to a new indication. No change in the formulation.
    Humira has had at least 1 extensions for multiple new indications. No change in the formulation.
    Thats off the top of the head, I know of others but not sure how/why they got extended. Sometimes its just lawyering up.

    Not sure what you're trying to say. I pretty much explained this.

    I'm not sure about that. I think if a drug gets patented in the US, then part of the IP standards written into the TPP means that product is protected amongst all TPP signatories.
    It was a hypothetical. I'm not arguing the individual laws of every TPP country. C'mon man.
    Which was exactly the matter the hypothetical was based on....
    No. That doesn't address the point at all. Let go of your off patent bullshit. nobody is making that argument but you.
    As I said, who the fuck suggested the TPP protects off-patent drugs? You are the only person who thinks that. Are you debating with another poster on another site and getting your conversations mixed up?
    who the fuck suggested that countries would be invading other countries over this? What happens is corporations sue member countries for failing to adhere to the treaty. See Eli Lilly vs. Canada. Lets see Vietnam risk incurring those legal fees to defend a case against Big Pharma, even in a winning effort.


    Do me a favor and don't respond.
    Its just going to be more bullshit about you accusing me of suggesting the US is going to invade other countries to dictate local politics because some Latin American country won't honor an infinite patent extension on an off patent drug even though Peru has a law dating back to 1951 that already enforces this.
     
  3. Anung Un Rama

    Anung Un Rama The Right Hand of Doom Platinum Member

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    IGIT,
    Why not both?
    Not everything wrong about a trade deal can be corrected with a tax bill.

    The people don't get to vote on trade bills.

    Not necessarily. And tax policy can't heal all wounds. A new tax policy isn't going to correct a job lost to trade, automation, or currency manipulation.



    And maybe currency manipulation is a thing of the past, but it wasn't when this agreement was being negotiated. That also cost millions of jobs.
    A tax bill wasn't going to correct that. And that trade deficit didn't allow companies to adapt in an organic fashion.


    Which was the point I was trying to make. You can't fix a trade deal with a tax plan.

    We seem to be losing an awful lot these days.

    -AUR
     
  4. IGIT

    IGIT Black Belt

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    hi AUR!

    i never said it could. i said that the principle problems in the TPP have to do with wealth distribution.


    sure they do. particularly when the TPP gained such profile in 2016. i can guarantee you that rust belt workers were voting on NAFTA and the TPP when they back Mr. Trump.


    currency manipulation shouldn't really be such a worry for you, Anuung. if you want to hold tight to that notion, there isn't much i can do about it though.

    as to job losses?
    sure, free trade causes some job losses. Amazon causes job losses. Walmart causes job losses. Netflix causes theater chains to bleed money. yes, yes, yes.
    people are going to try and get the things they want at the lowest price. what do you propose?

    what does the TPP have to do with automation, exactly?

    currency manipulation is not the bogeyman you're making it out to be - i actually didn't know this point stuck in your craw so severely.

    let me ask you, does the US manipulate its currency? i think they do, lol. does it bother you?

    maybe the US doesn't want explicit language regarding currency manipulation for a reason.

    what do you think?

    the trade deal doesn't need fixing, Anuung...the only thing that has to be addressed is how the money is divided.

    tax policy.

    fiscal policy.

    well, chin up my friend! i just read in NYmag that Mr. Trump is prepping around 30 billion in tariffs at China for IP skullduggery. its about time.

    - IGIT
     
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  5. Anung Un Rama

    Anung Un Rama The Right Hand of Doom Platinum Member

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    So its a vote for TPP or Tax Cuts for the rich?
    Where is the choice?

    Automation, free trade, currency manipulation, outsourcing are all free trade related perils that have cost millions of American jobs.
    You mentioned automation and outsourcing related to textiles. I thought I would complement that argument by adding other contributing factors that have affected that, and other, industries.

    What would TPP have added to those other examples of progress?



    Like I said, maybe its a thing of the past, but it wasn't while the TPP was being negotiated and it was a very significant factor in job loss in the USA.
    What are the odds that a trade bill include a clause that a percentage of all profits secondary to said trade bill will be set aside for checks to the American people or funding of unemployment benefits etc?



    Congrats!
    Rama
     
  6. Rod1

    Rod1 Titanium Belt

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    Again... HOW?

    You brought me an article that says weakens, but none explains the how. As i said before its not only about free trade, it also has a lot to do with standarization of processes in order to make transnational business easier.

    A real answer needs a real question. Throwing buzzwords like corruption without specifics is not going to produce an specific answer.

    You are saying that the TPP will override local patent laws, this is of course a complete lie.

    See this is the double speak im talking about, "I never said that the US was dictating local politics but the TPP is overruling local law and the US is dictating the TPP".

    The US had an input in negotiations, and that input had a bigger say because its a large nation, thats quite a stretch to claim US corporations dictating anything.

    Cool, and how is that relevant to the TPP discussion?

    Patents dont get extended on BS grounds or just because of a minor molecule change.

    For example Levocetirizine doesnt extends the patent of Cetirizine, so sure, you can patent a drug with minor modifications, but such patenting is meaningless when the original drug is off-patent.

    1.- Crestor didnt had a patent extension, some companies tried to null the patent of Crestor based on BS ground and got shot down.

    2.- There are already biosimilars to Humira on the market and as i said before it all depends on the national regulatory body to determine whether a patent for a product is valid or not.

    No, its not. Where did you get this idea?

    But you are talking as if the TPP was something beyond an agreement and that it was some sort of supernational governing body when its not, every individual country has its own laws and its own patent systems.

    The TPP establishes guidelines and establishes a way where private companies can appeal. But that doesnt means that a patent in America is valid everywhere.

    So why bring these examples to the discussion?

    You are the one who brought Valeant and Skreli into the conversation, not me, why the fuck are you talking about these orphan drugs as an example of anything when the reason they have little to none competition is 100% local law.

    So you dont want me to respond the fact that Eli Lily lost that lawsuit and had to pay for litigation costs and thus rendering your point moot?

    You are suggesting that the TPP was crafted by corporations in order to gain undue influence in foreign countries.
     
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  7. Anung Un Rama

    Anung Un Rama The Right Hand of Doom Platinum Member

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  8. IGIT

    IGIT Black Belt

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    ahoy Anuung Un Rama!

    a vote for the TPP is a vote for a trade deal that will facilitate trade. it is unrelated to wealth inequality or income inequality. its also an effort to assert a bit geopolitical pressure on China.

    you can vote for the TPP and vote for a tax plan that would resemble something that Hillary or Bernie would have put forward. i don't see any compromise going on here, you know?

    everybody's happy (except the super wealthy).

    if you want to stop globalization and automation, wind at yer back, Anuung.

    good luck de-inventing large ocean shipping vessels, the jet engine and the internet.

    how does the TPP hurt US textile mills, exactly?

    Anuung, does the US manipulate its currency also? yes or no?

    though nothing would please me more, i think there is zero chance of that kind of language being presented.

    i never suggested that such wording was possible in the TPP, and you know this.

    Tax policy

    Fiscal policy

    Yarrrrr!

    - IGIT
     
  9. Anung Un Rama

    Anung Un Rama The Right Hand of Doom Platinum Member

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    We already have free trade. TPP is not about facilitating trade.
    And how is it not related to wealth inequality?
    [​IMG]

    What exactly would it have done to pressure China?

    Well, we've established that we don't get a vote for TPP. We get to vote for a candidate and oftentimes the options cancel each other out.

    No, they're happy.

    Wasn't making that argument, just pointing out the ramifications of globalization for the US worker.

    At this point I think the damage to textiles is done. Not much left to bleed from the US textile industry that I can see. Maybe getting rid of a 0.5% tariff on teal fabric dye will revitalize it?
    How TPP would affect other industries is unknown. Did we know currency manipulation, trade deficits, and outsourcing were going to be so damaging ahead of time?

    IG-meister, I was told currency manipulation doesn't exist anymore.

    Exactly.

    I never said you did, and you know this. You suggested that we affect how the money gets redistributed.
    You're saying tax policy. That ship has passed for the time being. Why not put it in right in a trade agreement?

    Its a beautiful dream.

    AUR
     
  10. mon

    mon Purple Belt

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    This is what I replied to

    Regarding TPP specifically, it bends my imagination to understand how so many intelligent persons would have wished to have overlooked its insidious ADR provision, rights to private action against governments, inflexible patent protections, lost-profits clauses, and other despicable aspects, just to corner the international marketplace in a race to the bottom.

    You than replied to my response bringing up IP. I steered the conversation back to my concerns and we're back to IP.

    You brought up sinister and have ignored my rebuttal. If you dont wish to address the things I raised which concern me as much as IP does you and was why I responded to the above quote, at least address how a document which will directly or indirectly effect every person within the proposed countries cant be considered sinister when we have no access to it before its passed?
     
  11. Rod1

    Rod1 Titanium Belt

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    Depends on what you consider currency manipulation, everytime i change pesos to dollars im weakening the peso, does that means im intentionally devaluing the peso?
     
  12. Anung Un Rama

    Anung Un Rama The Right Hand of Doom Platinum Member

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    Currency manipulation doesn't exist. Read the thread.
     
  13. Rod1

    Rod1 Titanium Belt

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    As i said before, you dont seem to grasp simple facts and resort instead to using broad words without going into specifics.

    Currency manipulation is a buzzword, simple as that.
     
  14. Anung Un Rama

    Anung Un Rama The Right Hand of Doom Platinum Member

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    Sure. Whatever.
     
  15. IGIT

    IGIT Black Belt

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    hello mon,

    of course IP protection affects many people and its understandable that folks would want patented and copyrighted material for free, but that's not how the world works, and that outcome would be very undesirable to innovators and inventors. it also would be a terrible outcome for any nation that spends a huge proportion of its fortune on IP.

    creating IP worth stealing and then protecting it is alot like protecting an investment.

    i mean, think about it. do you want US officials reaching into your investment portfolio and helping themselves to whatever strikes their fancy?

    - IGIT
     
  16. Rod1

    Rod1 Titanium Belt

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    You didnt even knew the differences between floating and fixed rate which is fine i guess, but kind of becomes obnoxious when you keep repeating said buzzword without specifying what exactly do you want in the TPP addressing "currency manipulation".
     
  17. Anung Un Rama

    Anung Un Rama The Right Hand of Doom Platinum Member

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    Lol, first of all dude you attacked me for multiple positions I didn’t even take and continued to do so even after I clarified them over and over. I at least had the humility to ask you to clarify your comments before being a cunt and attacking you for things you didn’t say. You stopped being a credible partner in this conversation several posts ago, but I was a good sport and humored your repetitive ignorance.

    Now you want to talk about currency manipulation when you’ve assured me that it didn’t exist while completely ignoring the context in which I most recently mentioned it. I don’t have the time or interest in dragging out a conversation with somebody so dishonest.
     
  18. IGIT

    IGIT Black Belt

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    hio Anuung (last post for now, gotta go pick up my ounce....its time!),

    yes, we do have free trade. are you saying that because free trade exists between the US and various countries, any further free trade agreements are superfluous?

    is this the argument you're trying to frame?

    what is this chart really supposed to prove, Anuung? that wealth distribution mechanisms in the US and globally favor the rich?

    wealth distribution is unrelated to free trade. also, are you asking me to lose sleep about wealth distribution in Canada and Japan?

    in the US, income and wealth disparities can be addressed by tax policy and fiscal policy. NOT by kneecapping US based corporate interests.

    i am not going to get into a side discussion on this. i like you Anuung. i think you're a solid poster and i share many of your perspectives; but i don't think you care about geopolitical pressure on China one way or another.

    i'll answer your question, and you'll move on.

    if you don't think an economic alliance formed in the Asia Pacific Region, spearheaded by the US, that specifically doesn't include China will have no effect on China, i don't want to argue this point with you.

    come on, man.

    here in the US, we don't vote on ANY legislation. you vote for a candidate who has (hopefully) taken a stand on whatever legislation that concerns you, and you vote accordingly.

    this should come as news to no one, and its not a conspiracy.

    you're responding too quickly and not reading what i'm writing.

    the US worker will no longer be protected from competing with the rest of the planet in 2018. that's life, Anuung.

    US textiles are kaput, i think you're right on that.

    [​IMG]

    you're a major textile producer, and you need labor. you have to compete with companies around the globe, and its a cut throat business.

    where do you go to have your products made, Anuung? if you say "the USA" and you're competing with me, you're gonna have a fixture sale before Easter.

    i've read Rod1's stuff. i'm at the shallow end of the pool, i don't have his acumen on these matters.

    objectively, Anuung; do you feel the US manipulates its currency?

    yes or no?

    then why ask me a rhetorical question whose answer is self evident? i'd love that kind of language to be included, but outside of a fantasy movie penned by Aaron Sorkin, its not happening.

    because the killing the TPP does nothing to address the issues that really concern you and i. all it does it hurt US based interests internationally. how in the world will that help?

    Bernie would never have signed that tax "reform" into reality. neither would have Clinton.

    gotta go, Anuung - i've been slogging away at photoshop for so long i think all the THC has left my system.

    this is unacceptable.

    talk more later Anuung Un Rama!!!

    - IGIT
     
  19. mon

    mon Purple Belt

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    Hi mate

    I got it, IP protection and all that. You dont want to address any of my probs and I understand IP is very important to you.

    Ongoing diversion aside (IP)lets discuss something you raised ie nothing sinister here.

    There is something very sinister involved when no public citizen has access to this document, afterall the devils always in the detail. You stated theres nothing sinister here, please expand on this?

    Also out of curiousity what is your job and/or sector do who work in? I ask as I also make money from different equities which have/does include pharma and other high r&d sectors and I'm not losing my shorts over the stealing of ideas. Maybe I should as the worlds most notorious IP thief China also got a free trade agreement through to screw us.

    Youre pushing the tpp up hill with a pointy stick.... Whats in it for you? Were you involved in this rogering of individual identity amongst cultural variations?
     
  20. Anung Un Rama

    Anung Un Rama The Right Hand of Doom Platinum Member

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    IGGY,

    Moving forward lets do away with this broken posting. Its a bitch on mobile and I've lost several replies during this thread.
    It also makes it difficult to interpret whats being discussed in context.
    Not really, no. We have free trade. Sure there is a way to grind out some freer trade, but I think we're kidding ourselves to present TPP as a simply a vehicle to facilitate more free trade, especially in light of the protectionism conversation we've been having over the last few pages.

    It depicts the change in global wealth distribution related to globalization and free trade. It shows the developing countries doing better, the rich getting much richer, and the middle class getting fucked. There is a correlation between globalization and wealth inequality.

    It can be addressed by winning the lottery, too. Not to be a nihilist, but this isn't going to be changed under our current political climate. And by current I mean the last 20 years and the foreseeable future.
    I think this is a crazy exaggeration at this point. TPP wasn't saving these corporations from getting knee capped and dropping out of it wasn't doing the knee capping either.

    Cheers on the compliment, you are one of my favorite WR posters for your style and well rounded knowledge.
    Now, I don't bring up China to be a side argument. I think its the elephant in the room. You've brought them up several times. I've addressed how TPP was marketed to be essential to keep China in check. I've yet to see anybody, on sherdog or otherwise, elaborate on how that would work.

    Agreed, I did read it too fast. Apologies. This broken posting makes it difficult to stay on track.
    My point was voting for positive change is akin to a hail mary pass these days.


    The US worker is a US citizen. These trade deals not only don't protect them, they have been systematically removing their protections for decades.



    We need laws to restructure the obligations to share holders similar to Germany.

    GO DEEP!
    [​IMG]


    I'm with you. My understanding of currency manipulation is related to what I've read about China and Japan as it relates to our trade deficit. Based on what I've been told in this thread, I don't see how its possible that the US manipulates its currency. Seeing as we've had the world's largest trade deficit since the 1970s, if we're doing it, then we're doing it wrong.

    It was sarcasm. Our tax and fiscal policies haven't addressed any of negatives of free trade. Relying on a politician to do so at this point (Bernie will be too old) is pure fantasy; why not suggest building it into the agreement. Again, its not about trade, or American citizens, its about giant corps.
    If the TPP, under optimal conditions, barely helps, then killing it should barely hurt, if at all.

    I agree. But only Bernie would have gone further to address issues that would reverse or mitigate the damage free trade and other policies have done to the poor and middle class.

    Get high hombre, you've earned it!
    Best,
    AUR
     
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