TRUMP - and the politics of being wrong

The left is wrong more now. Trickle down doesn't work, and the tax breaks don't really help average people, but trumps general attitude towards the economy will improve it more than would an establishment candidate on either side. He still has to pretend to be a Republican, however.

He spoke plainly about Iraq and Libya being huge wastes of money, and failures; Other politicians didn't seem able to admit that. Democrats were right on iraq, in the beginning, but have been just as hawkish on behalf of the money that has lead the country since Vietnam.. Which John McCain supported during, AND after everybody realized it was a disaster. I'm sure op likes John McCain, because corporate politicians without the ability to tell the truth don't scare the left as much now.
 
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FireKidWS said:
I don’t think Fox was the biggest offender.

Fox Appeared to be the biggest offender as they were Heavily monitored by talk show hosts, Hollywood stars, all the “cool” people.

Meanwhile CNN and MSNBC were treated with more respect by those who had louder voices so got away with much worse.

Trump has shown to everyone just how corrupt CNN is. If you look at their numbers they have plummeted since Trump went to war against their “fake news.”

Again, it boils down to definitions. If you want to say Trump does not value honesty as much as he does making his point, i might even agree with you. But I think he does often try to portray accurately what he’s attempting to do.


I think the biggest difference between many American liberals and conservatives is conservatives have seen what a shit show politics has been for some time.

Liberals like to act appalled by Trunp when in deed he’s actuality rather a mild man and many present and past politicians have been much worse.
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You're still living in reality. You better get in MSMs la la bubble, because.... Terrible biased posters like op want you too?

They like corporate propaganda, ok? It's where PC lives, and without PCness their delusions won't work.
 
The type of lies are (I think) a novelty. Trump out of the blue just comes up with total falsehoods where I can't really see the point as to why he would state this. Very recently he stated that regarding the opioid crisis the numbers were 'way down'. Even if he would have made any significant policy to bring the numbers down, this wouldn't be visible so soon and nobody anywhere will back him in this. Also his statement about how it's the fault of regulations that wildfires are out of control because .... something about water in the ocean. Again all people who know what they are talking about don't back him on this. The lie was so stupid and incoherent you don't even know how to respond.

Other presidents lie, but at least I would understand why in the bigger picture (e.g. they want war in Iraq) and at least they would have an apparatus that would back their lie. They lie with a vision. Trump just lies about anything and everything and because it's so random, not thought through and outrageous, we don't care anymore about the lies or about truth in general. That to me is new and hopefully we (or you as US population) can recover from this insanity and respect facts, integrity and people with different political views in the future.
 
Trotsky said:
I don't think it's comparable at all to be honest: neither personally or in political climate.

This is the age of information: every Trump lie is known to be a lie (and is accessible to almost every American) within a few hours, and there is no overhanging national paranoia to consolidate concern and push it aside like in the Cold War. Any of McCarthy's statements that were unfounded or lies were either (a) trivial to his point or (b) not known until years later. It's not like a person's lack of communist connection could be proven overnight.

Btw, it's funny how I used to distinguish Trump from McCarthy (McCarthy being a person that I hate on a very, very visceral level). I now realize McCarthy is just a smarter, more self-aware version of Trump, even perhaps with a bit more moral fiber somehow.
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Ehhh I can't agree with you on that. McCarthy threw shit against the wall without any care if it was true. Fact checking was still certainly possible then. He leveled accusations left and right, not just about communism, but all sorts of garbage. There are plenty of people that believe the stuff Trump says. Refusing to critically analyze his statements, or hold him accountable for gaffes, is not new.
 
There's a weird phenomena in politics where politicians are shamed for ever changing their minds. If new information comes out or circumstances changes politicians who change their mind in light of this will be accused of hypocracy or U turning (invariably by the other side).
Increased tribalism in politics means people are more inclined to double down on 'their viewpoint as any other view is the 'other and therefore wrong.

All the above IMO of course.
 
Amerikuracana said:
The left is wrong more now. Trickle down doesn't work, and the tax breaks don't really help average people, but trumps general attitude towards the economy will improve it more than either an establishment candidate in either side. He still has to pretend to be a Republican, however.
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You understand why someone would say this is an objectively stupid thing to say, right? Like Hall of Fame stupid. You're saying "the left is more wrong because, even though the right is lying and the left isn't, and even though the right's actual policies do not work, the right has the correct attitude."

So, in pretty clear terms, his policies are demonstrably bunk and ineffective but his "attitude" will make them work.....that's nothing short of voodoo, dogma, magic worship. That's acknowledging that seeds were not planted but that you have trust in the dancing for rain.

He spoke plainly about Iraq and Libya being huge wastes of money, and failures.
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But he verifiably, undoubtedly supported both of them. And it's hard to say that "well, he would have done it differently and saved money" when he has gone over-budget and his revenues and underperformed on every task in his presidency.
 
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Trotsky said:
You understand why someone would say this is an objectively stupid thing to say, right? Like Hall of Fame stupid. You're saying "the left is more wrong because, even though the right is lying and the left isn't, the right has the correct attitude."

So, in pretty clear terms, his policies are demonstrably bunk and ineffective but his "attitude" will make them work.....that's nothing short of voodoo, dogma, magic worship. That's acknowledging that seeds were not planted but that you have trust in the dancing for rain.



But he verifiably, undoubtedly supported both of them. And it's hard to say that "well, he would have done it differently and saved money" when he has gone over-budget and his revenues and underperformed on every task in his presidency.
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Naw man, your positions are consistently hall of fame stupid. You are insanely biased yo the point it's comical and sad. It's more "the policies I don't like, or the media told me not to like, are wrong, because I say so."

Sorry somebody is finally serious about illegal immigration. Doing sway with chain migration completely wouldn't be my choice, but there can be limits to it.

The economy? He'sright on everything, except the things the establishment will force him into in that town.

What CNN is now? He's right. Everybody not stupid knows it; just like everybody not stupid knew fox news was biased before it was cool.

Renegotiating bad deals for America is great. Saying openly we waste our money in places that hate us, is great. Fighting back against a rigged system that wanted somebody else to be president? That's fine as well.

You are now fox news fan. They could have bullet pointed why Obama was a terrible human being and a bad president.
 
Trotsky said:
This will inevitably come off as unnecessarily flattering to posters who I enjoy reading, but I think it's a very important topic of discussion.

Some of the posters that I most respect on this forum - @Rod1 and @Quipling come to mind - routinely acknowledge when they are wrong, or spoke off the cuff without properly vetting their words, or need to further consult information, or are speaking about an issue that has veered into territory with which they are unfamiliar.

This is, in no uncertain terms, a mark of intelligence and trustworthiness: being able to admit when you're not immediately the winner. And this also happens to be an area where, I believe, Donald Trump excelled - but in the contrary direction. Despite being factually, inarguably, and verifiably wrong or inaccurate about his claims or beliefs, he would dig in and just resort to insults or obfuscation.

So, when Clinton brings up his comments on Putin? Nope, "wrong." How about when there is video evidence of him supporting the Iraq War? Nope, that's lies. When there are screen shots of him supporting intervention in Libya? Nope, FAKE NEWS. When there is video of him claiming wiretaps? Nope, that never happened.

And this goes on for days (and on much more substantive issues): Trump is shown to not know what the hell he's talking about (NATO, Hezbollah, crime rates, IMF, etc.), but instead of conceding that he was wrong and trying to form a better response, he plows ahead like a retarded bull spearing a red wall.

Would past politicians have been better off if they insisted that they were right and that their gaffes were correct or "fake news"? Could Rick Perry have insisted that his "three agencies of commerce" were actually only two?



Why? Why is stubbornly standing beside a falsehood more admirable than being right?
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http://forums.sherdog.com/threads/w...ie-so-much-and-why-do-we-tolerate-it.3805791/
:D
 
Trotsky said:
<[analyzed}>

But the point/question is - acknowledging that simple psychology - is there a counter measure that we can agree upon?
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For a lot of people, no, there's nothing that can be done. Trump really just has to be an asshole to illegal immigrants, or just an asshole in general and he'll get unconditional support from his ''base.'' His ''base'' though, isn't what won him the election, the same for any politician. They're largely irrelevant.

Which brings me to this strategy and its effect on people who could go either way. It's not the politics of being wrong - it's the politics of always being on offence. Donald Trump, the alt-right, the alt-lite, what have you, they all do not play defence. Have you ever argued with someone and dismanted about 10 of their positions in a row before noticing that they just abandon the position immediately, and move on to another angle? What eventually happens? Eventually, you might slip, in which case it doesn't matter that you demolished them 10 times and you misspoke once: you're fucking done. And even if you don't, you never really feel like you won anything anyways. That's because they constantly reposition themselves in order to be the one making the accusation, the one asking the question, and the arbiter of the answers. You may have defended perfectly, but all you did was defend. You can't win because you never had the ball. This does effect normal people. It's like watching a game where one team always has the ball in the other team's end, but never scores a point: most people would say the team in possession is ''winning.''

Say what you will about this movement whose crowning achievement was the election of Donald Trump, they do project a coherent world view to those susceptible to it, and this is against a backdrop of the incoherency of liberal democracy in late capitalism. People see a world in which they never really had much of a place whose future is portrayed as having even less of a place for them. It's confusing, it's rapidly changing, and it doesn't promise much for them. That much is true. This means that Trump's claims aren't interacting with a vacuum. They're interacting with these people's fears, worries, anxieties. This is how his supporters can find meaning in Trump's speeches even if trained linguists find them hard to decipher into a single, simple, declarative sentence. What matters so much isn't the facts, it's that there's an enemy, good guys, bad guys, and a solution.

The left just didn't seem to have much of a response in 2016.
 
People formulate their opinions on their political bias, shocking news I know. People on the right and left both praised and liked Comey and hated him all within the last two years lol .

Trump lies, MSM and anti-Trumpers lie about Trump their is no middle ground of balance there. I could take a statement from Trump and think wow that's kind of a dickish thing to say but it's not a big deal and most of the left will call him Hilter and tell you the sky is going to fall. He has no business being president but the paved roads got him here and it looks like he will be president until 2024.
 
Trump has mastered the game of perception over integrity.

I expect that from a narcissist/opportunist.

What I find more appalling,trump supporters who downplay these lies,and worse.. trump supporters who ignorantly believe them.

There is no excuse for ignorance on this level in 2018. Smart phones and the internet give Americans unlimited resources to learn the truth about what there politicians are saying.

Do I think all politicians lie,sure.

Do they lie at the level of sheer stupidity/absence of fact like trump..absolutely not.


On the integrity scale...The only thing I hate more then a thief is a liar.
 
Trotsky said:
Why? Why is stubbornly standing beside a falsehood more admirable than being right?
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It's not more admirable, merely more effective. The orange turd realized perhaps better than anyone that a) people are dumb as shit, b) have - or will not afford - no time to seeking facts and c) wil ultimately eat up a lie repeated a thousand times as truth.

Let me repeat that - this country has given up on critical thinking. Truth has zero value. Zero.
 
FireKidWS said:
I dunno why I’m posting here because in polotics it’s almost impossible to convince anyone of anything.

But two things:

First, you gotta know Trump is one of the most intentionally misquoted and misinterpreted men alive.

Second, Trump often comes across to some people to mean things he didn’t mean.

A lot boils down to definitions.

For instance:

I could say “I think I’m crazy” and “I don’t think I’m crazy” and register perfect honesty on a lie detector test.

All I’d have to do is change what definition I was using.

I am crazy in that I am intense and at times think different than most. I’m also not crazy because I am a sane, responsible adult.

That’s why in law, they establish strict definitions before even arguing about anything.

Trump often says things intentionally ambiguous. That’s different than outright lies.
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Is that really what you think happens with Trump?

FFS he uses 5th grade (or less) grammar most of the time. I don't think he's being intentionally misquoted.
 
If Trump ever admitted that he was wrong on something would you really give him credit or just use it as another opportunity to attack him?
 
PainIsLIfe said:
Is that really what you think happens with Trump?

FFS he uses 5th grade (or less) grammar most of the time. I don't think he's being intentionally misquoted.
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The reality is we have many Americans on a 5th grade grammar level.

I don’t like it, but we do.

And yes I’m not trolling, I really do talk about how I think Trump is misrepresented to my friends and have yet to meet someone who can dismantle my argument.
 
Johnny Rosa said:
The type of lies are (I think) a novelty. Trump out of the blue just comes up with total falsehoods where I can't really see the point as to why he would state this. Very recently he stated that regarding the opioid crisis the numbers were 'way down'. Even if he would have made any significant policy to bring the numbers down, this wouldn't be visible so soon and nobody anywhere will back him in this. Also his statement about how it's the fault of regulations that wildfires are out of control because .... something about water in the ocean. Again all people who know what they are talking about don't back him on this. The lie was so stupid and incoherent you don't even know how to respond.

Other presidents lie, but at least I would understand why in the bigger picture (e.g. they want war in Iraq) and at least they would have an apparatus that would back their lie. They lie with a vision. Trump just lies about anything and everything and because it's so random, not thought through and outrageous, we don't care anymore about the lies or about truth in general. That to me is new and hopefully we (or you as US population) can recover from this insanity and respect facts, integrity and people with different political views in the future.
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This is what separates Trump from normal politicians. He just lies when he really need to. Most of the lies are also from him going off subject. Like he is asked about health care and somehow he makes up a lie about jobs while babbling on. Makes no sense
 
FireKidWS said:
The reality is we have many Americans on a 5th grade grammar level.

I don’t like it, but we do.

And yes I’m not trolling, I really do talk about how I think Trump is misrepresented to my friends and have yet to meet someone who can dismantle my argument.
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Well I'll agree that he's been bashed for things that were taken out of context - Charlottesville, but he's said some outright lies that he refuses to acknowledge.
 
PainIsLIfe said:
Well I'll agree that he's been bashed for things that were taken out of context - Charlottesville, but he's said some outright lies that he refuses to acknowledge.
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I dunno man, when people say he’s said outright lies I always ask what they are and they are hard to find. Do you have 1-2 examples we can analyze?
 
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