Unlicensed “Security Guard” Shoots and Kills a Man at protests In Denver

[Cubo de Sangre]

Varying opinions is fine, I'm not trying to go in circles on this, but I'm just saying that this is the part where I'm saying you are ignoring the details.
Tubby is not just some guy walking around with mace at his side. He is a guy that was JUST in another altercation with a BLM guy where he had the mace out and ready to use (security guy saw that altercation), and then Tubby comes over to get in another argument with "security guy" where he got physical with him. THAT is when he became a threat. Not just having the mace, but what he was doing while having the mace.

He didn't use the mace in the first altercation. Yes, it was ready to use. No, he was not in the process of using it (or posturing as such) when shooter went for his gun. You can imagine he might, but he's simply not pointing it prior to that event. If you've got a picture showing otherwise let's see it.

Regardless, that detail doesn't seem like the crux of it. It's just another factor among many. Even if he started spraying first and then shooter went for his gun I'd say the shooter is doing time.

The fact that you are taking this position given your posting history and general ideology around giving a wide berth to self-defense is...surprising. Or at least I wish it was.

Also, there is a case for fear of death or grievous bodily harm. When you've been mased and cannot see, your attacker can do whatever they want to you: you've been all but completely robbed of your ability to defend yourself if you cannot see. It's not necessarily a great case, but it's a case. Their being cops nearby is irrelevant (wtf?).

I'm impressed that liberal posters have called a spade a spade here: that this is unlawful homicide. Maybe he can argue self-defense, but in terms of our norms surrounding killing someone this is definitely unacceptable. I'm not impressed that right-wing shit posters are whining about how terrible this is when they've shamelessly defended lethal self defense against non-lethal aggression countless times before.

I'm trying to be realistic based on the known facts, the law, and how these instances are generally viewed. I personally wouldn't have shot in that situation due to the variety of factors I've mentioned. If on the jury I'd listen to shooter's story with an open mind.

The cops being right there is relevant. Him having his buddy right there matters too. It's hard to claim one guy is going to beat you senseless when you've got help and can yell for the police. Maybe you want the guy to be innocent and that's fine. I'm just going by what I see and dgaf who likes who politically.

 

[OaklandIsMyCity]

You missed all the gymnastics when the Portland shooting happened. Also whenever a right winger does a clear crime, most of us agree it was wrong. So no, you and your boner biting friend are wrong. Opinion wise as well as biting boners. You're equally wring on both. Stop both activities immediately

Honestly it really doesn't matter to me who is in the wrong. Two dudes at a rally being dumb. I just see the double standards people use when it's against the other group.

 

[Bia]

My thoughts on the situation
-Trump supporter slapped the gunner
-gunner pull out his gun, probably to scare or deter the Trump supporter
-Trump supporter spayed the mace anyway (don't think he see the drawn gun) and gunner naturally react to the motion and fire his gun

 

[Overtures]

The only thing that could possibly make a stronger case for the shooter is if he was slapped then the guy backed up and reached for mace and the shooter believed he was reaching for a gun and then the shooter drew his gun

 

[TheGreatA]

The only thing that could possibly make a stronger case for the shooter is if he was slapped then the guy backed up and reached for mace and the shooter believed he was reaching for a gun and then the shooter drew his gun

Problem with that is that he had the mace already in his hand and the other guy seemingly reached for it.

 

[Cubo de Sangre]

Problem with that is that he had the mace already in his hand and the other guy seemingly reached for it.

I don't think he reached for anything. I think he just put his hand out to either push tubby back or to keep distance.

 

[Overtures]

Problem with that is that he had the mace already in his hand and the other guy seemingly reached for it.

Maybe, still need confirmation of that

 

[Cubo de Sangre]

@Trotsky

PS: I do give self-defense a wide birth, but sometimes it doesn't add up. Like the father/son in GA who killed the jogger. Jogger went for the shotgun, but the problem his there was no right to make any sort of citizens arrest or detain. The would have had to have seen the guy commit a felony, as I recall from the statutes. Jogger was defending himself after multiple attempts to avoid trouble.

 

[brackis1]

I don't think he reached for anything. I think he just put his hand out to either push tubby back or to keep distance.

Where did you get this? seems like it wasnt in the original 4-photo sequence.

 

[OaklandIsMyCity]

I don't think he reached for anything. I think he just put his hand out to either push tubby back or to keep distance.

It's amazing how every still shot can tell a different story.

 

[TheGreatA]

I don't think he reached for anything. I think he just put his hand out to either push tubby back or to keep distance.

In any case I doubt he would have mistaken it for a gun. The guy with the Black Guns Matter shirt had already yelled at the guy with the mace, for having his pepper spray out, and dared him to use it. The only way the shooter could've mistaken it for a gun, is if he was completely oblivious to his surroundings.

 

[Woldog]

Mods please delete this if it breaches any rules. This is from my local news site in Australia.

 

[Cubo de Sangre]

In any case I doubt he would have mistaken it for a gun. The guy with the Black Guns Matter shirt had already yelled at the guy with the mace, for having his pepper spray out, and dared him to use it. The only way the shooter could've mistaken it for a gun, is if he was completely oblivious to his surroundings.

Clearly shooter knows his way around a pistol. No way he thought the spray was a gun.

EDIT: This is supposedly him selling is wares at a gun show.

 

[TheGreatA]

Clearly shooter knows his way around a pistol. No way he thought the spray was a gun.

The way I see it, I think he felt humiliated by the slap, pulled his gun out, thinking the other guy would back down, and then panicked when the other guy used his spray. Resulting in a pointless death.

I guess we will see what the courts decide. There's still some context missing here prior to the slap.

 

[Cubo de Sangre]

The way I see it, I think he felt humiliated by the slap, pulled his gun out, thinking the other guy would back down, and then panicked when the other guy used his spray. Resulting in a pointless death.

I guess we will see what the courts decide. There's still some context missing here prior to the slap.

That's how it looks to me too.

Agreed on the missing context too. Why did fatman turn his attention from the angry agitator and go over to the newsman and bodyguard. Not sure what would get shooter off the hook though.

 

[trac209]

The way I see it, I think he felt humiliated by the slap, pulled his gun out, thinking the other guy would back down, and then panicked when the other guy used his spray. Resulting in a pointless death.

I guess we will see what the courts decide. There's still some context missing here prior to the slap.

From the looks of him any time he spends in jail will feel like an eternity. Both sides should cut the shit because there’s no winning either way. If that shooter gets life in prison I have zero issues with it.

 

[TheGreatA]

That's how it looks to me too.

Agreed on the missing context too. Why did fatman turn his attention from the angry agitator and go over to the newsman and bodyguard. Not sure what would get shooter off the hook though.

It could be as simple as them just bumping into each other. Or maybe the "guard" guy (who, I guess, wasn't even a real guard) tried to defuse the situation, which only led to its escalation. His posture in the very first available picture that you posted kind of indicates that he was trying to calm the other guy down, maybe telling him to "chill", while getting too close for comfort to the other guy. As we know, the dead guy responded with a slap in his face.

Very little time passed between the dead guy arguing with the yelling guy, and him getting shot by the "guard", so I doubt it could have been anything too elaborate that started the conflict.

Only a hell of a lawyer could get him off the hook. But I suppose he could get away with just manslaughter, if he can prove that he had no ill intentions and that the mace spray made him panic.

 

[High Altitude]

How many people here would have shot the guy?

I wouldn’t have.

I would not have felt my life was in danger just from the pepper spray.

 

[High Altitude]

When you choose to carry a firearm, you take on a huge responsibility, and if you decide to shoot someone, you better make damn sure you are in the right before you do. Meaning, shit must be very bad once you make that decision, and a little pepper spray is not there yet.

As a private citizen, your level of proof to be at a life threatening situation, is very high.

This guy is fucked.

 

[brackis1]

How many people here would have shot the guy?

I wouldn’t have.

I would not have felt my life was in danger just from the pepper spray.

Oh really?
Did you sleep funny on your mattress?

Stand your ground only applies if the other person is breaking the law and putting you in danger. Zimmerman was not breaking any laws.

Trayvon played the whole badass thug game with the wrong guy.