Was Brazilian Jiu Jitsu a mistake? Deconstructing BJJ

[The Chosen]

Mitsuyo Maeda taught the Scottish-Brazilian brothers Carlos and Helio Gracie the art of judo. The evolution of Gracie Jiu Jitsu would take a turn to where throws were not a significant part of the training process because the average martial artist could not deal with the submission threats posed by a Gracie Jiu Jitsu practitioner. Fast forward to the modern day and the speed in which one can put their opponent in vulnerable situations is the most important indicator for success. It is safe to say the knowledge of submissions neutralizes most of the effectiveness of them, so that leaves the affective grapplers not being the ones who necessarily have more mat time, but the ones who have developed the technique and strength to quickly get into dominant positions. The tradition of what we call Brazilian Jiu Jitsu has in many ways taken out a critical part of fighting, and it is evident in the performance of many BJJ players inside MMA competition. Compare the vale tudo of Brazil to the SAMBO that was developed in the Soviet Union, you will notice it is almost a completely different sport even though the rule set is almost identical. MMA as we know it does owe its existence to the Brazilian model, but I don’t believe the school which many Americans inherited is necessarily the best.

 

[HHJ]

No.


/thread

 

[NoSmilez]

Ruleset of sambo is not identical.... Sports sambo is the default Sambo as opposed to Combat sambo. Combat sambo rules are also different from Vale Tudo. Rulesets lead to difference in how the sport looks like.

 

[The Chosen]

Ruleset of sambo is not identical.... Sports sambo is the default Sambo as opposed to Combat sambo. Combat sambo rules are also different from Vale Tudo

They are both basically forms of no holds barred MMA

 

[shunyata]

Did.... did you just suggest that Islam does not have more mat time in grappling than Dan Hooker?

GTFO

 

[The Chosen]

Did.... did you just suggest that Islam does not have more mat time in grappling than Dan Hooker?

GTFO

An average person could train for as many hours as a professional athlete and not have the same physical attributes the athlete would have. There’s a reason youth matters in sport.

 

[Mentallooser]

They are both basically forms of no holds barred MMA

What? You have limited ground time in combat sambo and only straight limb locks in sport sambo.

 

[mjfan23]

No and reporting you for anti semitism against Brazil’s Jews

 

[ralek4grammy]

Calling it what it was - "crippled Judo" (Old School Judo minus throws) - would've made it less marketable.

Judo throws are a thing of beauty and anyone using them (slightly modified to deal with the absence of a gi) along with trips would have an advantage, facing an opponent "just as skilled" in the other areas.

The expression on the faces of those surprised by unfamiliar techniques, often times again and again (not knowing how to defend against), always made it even better.

While I don't agree with all the minutiae of your post (which others have done a technically good, but more or less gentlemanly job to address)...with the general gist of it, certainly. Especially in a world where Olympic Judo wouldn't be the Judo most are exposed to exclusively, but the old, complete art.

Anyone else watching Karo Parisyan hightlights every now and then knows.

 

[NoSmilez]

They are both basically forms of no holds barred MMA

Even combat sambo isn't Vale Tudo. You cannot attack an grounded opponent if you are standing over them. You can't even kick against a butt scoot. No guillotines or neck cranks are allowed too. There are also points for knockdowns, throws and pins. Ground time is limited as well. I can smash your face a million times with strikes and it doesn't score unless I knock you down.

 

[The Chosen]

What? You have limited ground time in combat sambo and only straight limb locks in sport sambo.

Many of the subs are identical bro...

 

[IDGETKTFO]

I don't like to watch men hug each other on the ground so im going to vote yes.

 

[Eric Silva 2.0]

Calling it what it was - "crippled Judo" (Old School Judo minus throws) - would've made it less marketable.

Judo throws are a thing of beauty and anyone using them (slightly modified to deal with the absence of a gi) along with trips would have an advantage, facing an opponent "just as skilled" in the other areas.

The expression on the faces of those surprised by unfamiliar techniques, often times again and again (not knowing how to defend against), always made it even better.

While I don't agree with all the minutiae of your post (which others have done a technically good, but more or less gentlemanly job to address)...with the general gist of it, certainly. Especially in a world where Olympic Judo wouldn't be the Judo most are exposed to exclusively, but the old, complete art.

Anyone else watching Karo Parisyan hightlights every now and then knows.

When we talk about Judo it should be implied it's the old, complete art rather than sport or Olympic Judo. Olympic Judo is a neutered form of a great martial art.

 

[Bruce Lee666]

Mitsuyo Maeda taught the Scottish-Brazilian brothers Carlos and Helio Gracie the art of judo. The evolution of Gracie Jiu Jitsu would take a turn to where throws were not a significant part of the training process because the average martial artist could not deal with the submission threats posed by a Gracie Jiu Jitsu practitioner. Fast forward to the modern day and the speed in which one can put their opponent in vulnerable situations is the most important indicator for success. It is safe to say the knowledge of submissions neutralizes most of the effectiveness of them, so that leaves the affective grapplers not being the ones who necessarily have more mat time, but the ones who have developed the technique and strength to quickly get into dominant positions. The tradition of what we call Brazilian Jiu Jitsu has in many ways taken out a critical part of fighting, and it is evident in the performance of many BJJ players inside MMA competition. Compare the vale tudo of Brazil to the SAMBO that was developed in the Soviet Union, you will notice it is almost a completely different sport even though the rule set is almost identical. MMA as we know it does owe its existence to the Brazilian model, but I don’t believe the school which many Americans inherited is necessarily the best.

Sambo>>>>>>>>BJJ

 

[capnlarge]

At the end of the day, strength and technique are going to be advantageous in any sport.

If other grappling arts are shown to be more effective than BJJ, then they will overtake BJJ in MMA in due time

 

[Mulletenthusiast]

Calling it what it was - "crippled Judo" (Old School Judo minus throws) - would've made it less marketable.

Judo throws are a thing of beauty and anyone using them (slightly modified to deal with the absence of a gi) along with trips would have an advantage, facing an opponent "just as skilled" in the other areas.

The expression on the faces of those surprised by unfamiliar techniques, often times again and again (not knowing how to defend against), always made it even better.

While I don't agree with all the minutiae of your post (which others have done a technically good, but more or less gentlemanly job to address)...with the general gist of it, certainly. Especially in a world where Olympic Judo wouldn't be the Judo most are exposed to exclusively, but the old, complete art.

Anyone else watching Karo Parisyan hightlights every now and then knows.

Yeah, Judo throws are awesome. 90% of them you fail and end in turtle position(being smashed and submitted in the process).

 

[The Chosen]

Ruleset of sambo is not identical.... Sports sambo is the default Sambo as opposed to Combat sambo. Combat sambo rules are also different from Vale Tudo. Rulesets lead to difference in how the sport looks like.

And you do realize I’m talking about what led to the creation of the two right? It was based on what the early martial artists of the region thought were the most effective tactics. What became tradition is irrelevant to me.

 

[The Chosen]

At the end of the day, strength and technique are going to be advantageous in any sport.

If other grappling arts are shown to be more effective than BJJ, then they will overtake BJJ in MMA in due time

they already have, pulling guard is statistically a losing strategy in MMA

 

[Schmubby Schmecker]

Calling it what it was - "crippled Judo" (Old School Judo minus throws) - would've made it less marketable.

Judo throws are a thing of beauty and anyone using them (slightly modified to deal with the absence of a gi) along with trips would have an advantage, facing an opponent "just as skilled" in the other areas.

The expression on the faces of those surprised by unfamiliar techniques, often times again and again (not knowing how to defend against), always made it even better.

While I don't agree with all the minutiae of your post (which others have done a technically good, but more or less gentlemanly job to address)...with the general gist of it, certainly. Especially in a world where Olympic Judo wouldn't be the Judo most are exposed to exclusively, but the old, complete art.

Anyone else watching Karo Parisyan hightlights every now and then knows.

The "just as skilled in other areas" part is important because judoka generally aren't as good as bjj people on the ground. I'm not saying that as a knock on them, but there are only so many hours in a day, and most of the focus for a judoka is the standing/throwing portion. Maybe it's different in some old school judo schools, but this is the case for places focused on competition.

I think a person would be better off splitting their time between wrestling and bjj than doing judo.

 

[Mulletenthusiast]

Anyways, the Gracie Jiu Jiutsu always thought that position>>>>>>>submission. The only real problem is the GI, IMO. Giving positions away is the result of the, so called, american jiu jitsu or submission grappling, which, for me, it's the worse of the worse in mma, and it will never produce a champion.