Was Brazilian Jiu Jitsu a mistake? Deconstructing BJJ

[DrawK]

The guard is dead in MMA. No one wants to try new guards or strategies, it's all about getting up. I'd love to see more focus on guard, subs, sweeps ect but the rules just don't support it so it makes sense why getting up is the go to.

 

[welcometohavoc]

I don't like to watch men hug each other on the ground so im going to vote yes.

That's wrestling, not BJJ.

Wrestling is where they wear tight leotards and "ride" their opponent

 

[fishNjits]

As pointed out, Combat Sambo is basically MMA in a gi jacket. Meanwhile, three UFC champions are BJJ based - Charlie Olives, Glover, and Moreno.

How many sport sambo guys have won ADCC?

 

[The Chosen]

Anyways, the Gracie Jiu Jiutsu always thought that position>>>>>>>submission. The only real problem is the GI, IMO. Giving positions away is the result of the, so called, american jiu jitsu or submission grappling, which for me, it's the worse of the worse in mma, and it will never produce a champion.

with the new iterations of every BJJ fad they progressively take out one thing after the other. I don’t think it was supposed to be such an insular discipline without being subject to outside criticism. That’s why BJJ is a mistake.

 

[IDGETKTFO]

That's wrestling, not BJJ.

Wrestling is where they wear tight leotards and "ride" their opponent

Potato, Potatoe.

 

[MikeyB]

Hey can anyone help me find a thread with 5 people who have never trained pretend to know stuff?

 

[The Chosen]

As pointed out, Combat Sambo is basically MMA in a gi jacket. Meanwhile, three UFC champions are BJJ based - Charlie Olives, Glover, and Moreno.

How many sport sambo guys have won ADCC?

Charles Oliveira is one of my favorite fighters because he represents a great evolution of MMA, instead of sticking to failed methods he and his team developed world class wrestling and striking. One of the best fighters on the roster by far.

 

[Alphafail]

Man Sherdog is getting dumber and dumber.

 

[The Chosen]

Man Sherdog is getting dumber and dumber.

Projection

 

[fishNjits]

Charles Oliveira is one of my favorite fighters because he represents a great evolution of MMA, instead of sticking to failed methods he and his team developed world class wrestling and striking. One of the best fighters on the roster by far.

Has anybody ever said the problem with wrestling is that the ruleset doesn't allow for submissions? Why is wrestling OK if it has to evolve to include BJJ tactics relative to MMA, but BJJ is bad if it has to evolve to include wrestling tactics relative to MMA?

The top BJJ guys don't spend all of their time working on takedowns. As Danaher has pointed out, you can be a BJJ world champion and never complete a takedown in your life. That's not a problem with BJJ, it's a problem with the sport BJJ rule set relative to MMA.

 

[Bork Neslar]

Your thread is several decades late.

 

[Chomsky Honk]

Yeah I think it was a mistake. Mitsuyo Maeda didn’t mean to do that.

 

[Bruce Lee666]

Yeah, Judo throws are awesome. 90% of them you fail and end in turtle position(being smashed and submitted in the process).

Kimura humiliated Brazilian jiu jitsu with his Judo, it's also a Martial art that helps Grapplers a lot, Khabib Judo is beautiful.

Judo guys has badass TDD too :

Judo vs Wrestling :


Judo vs jiu jitsu :

 

[The Chosen]

Has anybody ever said the problem with wrestling is that the ruleset doesn't allow for submissions? Why is wrestling OK if it has to evolve to include BJJ tactics relative to MMA, but BJJ is bad if it has to evolve to include wrestling tactics relative to MMA?

The top BJJ guys don't spend all of their time working on takedowns. As Danaher has pointed out, you can be a BJJ world champion and never complete a takedown in your life. That's not a problem with BJJ, it's a problem with the sport BJJ rule set relative to MMA.

The problem comes when BJJ claims to be a more complete discipline, I think it’s pretty obvious wrestling is not a real fight, they are competing in a very limited ruleset. Meanwhile it is pretty inherent in BJJ to think they are a more complete form of fighting, the UFC itself started as a showcase for BJJ over other martial arts. If skills that are being developed have almost no relevance to MMA then that certain part of it must go, BJJ is a relatively new art and new things need to evolve. Boxing and wrestling have been proven to develop real skills over thousands of years and it benefits MMA fighters greatly to spend time solely developing these disciplines.

 

[G10]

I think TS has a point, but it depends. Just like that adage "There are many paths to the top of the mountain", there are many methods for fighters to find success in MMA. BJJ has been proven to no longer be the end-all, be-all, but it's also proven to be extremely resilient.

As for the broader argument of skill vs athleticism, that will never be settled. Ultimately, it's the driving question of all martial arts.

 

[Alpinestar]

According to UFC 1 to UFC 5, no.

 

[The Chosen]

According to UFC 1 to UFC 5, no.

Oleg Taktarov was an early tournament champion, and Shamrock fought Royce to a stalemate

 

[fishNjits]

The problem comes when BJJ claims to be a more complete discipline, I think it’s pretty obvious wrestling is not a real fight, they are competing in a very limited ruleset. Meanwhile it is pretty inherent in BJJ to think they are a more complete form of fighting, the UFC itself started as a showcase for BJJ over other martial arts. If skills that are being developed have almost no relevance to MMA then that certain part of it must go, BJJ is a relatively new art and new things need to evolve. Boxing and wrestling have been proven to develop real skills over thousands of years and it benefits MMA fighters greatly to spend time solely developing these disciplines.

C'mon. BJJ'ers have real skills just like boxers and wrestlers. To say this isn't true is just nonsense.

You've got a bit of a strawman here. Nobody - except maybe Helio's descendants - claim that BJJ is a complete form of fighting. If you went over to r/BJJ and made the claim that BJJ was a complete form of fighting, you'd generate 100 replies laughing at you.

Now, I can argue that a pure BJJ guy would beat a pure boxer, wrestler, TKD, karateka, judoka in the cage, but that's not the same as saying its a complete form of fighting.

 

[Bruce Lee666]

According to UFC 1 to UFC 5, no.

Lucky for Royce and his Family that Sakuraba wasn't in the UFC 1, otherwise Catch Wrestling would be more famous than BJJ.

 

[The Chosen]

C'mon. BJJ'ers have real skills just like boxers and wrestlers. To say this isn't true is just nonsense.

You've got a bit of a strawman here. Nobody - except maybe Helio's descendants - claim that BJJ is a complete form of fighting. If you went over to r/BJJ and made the claim that BJJ was a complete form of fighting, you'd generate 100 replies laughing at you.

Now, I can argue that a pure BJJ guy would beat a pure boxer, wrestler, TKD, karateka, judoka in the cage, but that's not the same as saying its a complete form of fighting.

I think the problem comes from no physical skills being developed on a BJJ mat. In wrestling you are developing reflexes and body weight strength and feel. In BJJ it’s focused on manipulating joints and strategizing in trickery, but once you know the trick it has little effect on you. You can know a great wrestler is going to wrestle you but you won’t be able to do a damn thing about it.