Watching Pride: Final Conflict 2005 makes me realize how far MMA has evolved

[Prince Nephilim]

Crocop had good TDD for the time period. Known for something the Pride broadcast team called “spiral takedown defense”.

 

[storeybuckle]

If Fedor doesn’t take down Tai, I think Tai starches him in half a round.

44 year old Fedor or 24-year-old Fedor?

 

[Airdack]

Crocop, almost universally revered for his sprawl, has no TDD? I appreciate the moxy of your threads, they're obvious troll threads, but I can't even chuckle at that statement.

This. CroCop and Chuck basically invented sprawl and brawl.

 

[ClosetVitorFan]

You do know how chemically enhanced prime Wanderlei was right? That alone made all these dudes in pride circa 2005 freaks.

 

[Killer Kadoogan]

They were the elite of LHW twenty years ago in a sport thats barely 30 years old.


Lol @ "aura" and "anger". You are romanticizing so hard its hilarious. Btw i'm not even saying the modern crop kill them or anything. I'm trying to take a level headed middle ground here, and "prime Arona kills 99% of modern LHWs" and "Ankalaev doesnt belong in the ring with them" sure as fuck aint it. I mean, ignoring one obvious fact ie most LHWs 20 years ago would be 185'ers today while a lot of modern LHWs would have been HWs in Pride.

Oh God not the "you werent watching" argument. You liked one of my posts a few back where I was defending Fedors resume and giving actual context to it, earlier in the thread I had a post about how Brett Rogers was perceived when Fedor fought him, I think on this thread I also spoke about how Nog and Herring were perceived back when Fedor beat them too. But either way, does it really make a difference whether you were watching those events then or now? I actually get shocked sometimes when I go back and watch some old events that I actually saw as they happened, because I dont remember the talent level being in many cases as shit as it was.

Anyway, yeah I loved Pride too, aesthetically etc it felt larger than life, but thats probably part of the reason its overrated too because the setting made everything feel "big". At the end of the day it was a Yakuza run Japanese organisation that was shady as fuck, full of smoke and mirrors and lasted 10 years in the early stages of the sport at a time before MMA blew up as a mainstream phenomenon outside of Japan and the talent pool was nowhere near as big and diverse.

Timing, 20 years ago, 30 years ago, is irrelevant since we are talking fantasy matchups. Many PRIDE stars went on to become UFC champions directly afterwards anyways. Those with the eye, can see the elite of PRIDE would have given trouble to any modern day match up, especially if we're talking where the LHW and HW divisions are at these days.

Most LHWs 20 years ago, would still be LHWs today. What kind of reasoning is that? Do you even know the weight limit of the PRIDE FC LHW division? It was still 205 pounds, just called Middleweight in their own way of describing their divisions. Pride MW division = modernday / 20 year ago UFC LHW division. It's always been 205 pounds, so that is a stupid take you have, one not based in reality, history, or proper perspective. Arona, Wand, Rampage, Shogun were ALWAYS 205 pounds. lol. You weren't there or around.

It absolutely makes a difference if you were watching then, otherwise you wouldn't pull shit out of your ass believing that Arona, Wand, Rampage, Shogun would be MW fighters today. That makes no sense, since they never fought at 185 pounds in PRIDE, it was always at 205 pounds, just called MW by PRIDE FC. You're missing on little details like that, which IMO expose how little you actually know/understand about PRIDE FC and these fighters. To say that you don't remember how bad the "talent" being is also a stupid observation. Anyone watching back then knew, that this talent was infinite, way better than current UFC offering, without a doubt. It was like watching the amateurs + a few US stars, and then a real international fight league of epic proportions. PRIDE's roster smoked the UFC roster on any day especially in the early 2000s. While Randy was tearing up Tito and Chuck, the LHW (MW - still 205 lbs) division of Pride was putting on tournaments, the best fighting the best, in clear visual proweress of the elite skills. And we all saw what happened to Chuck when he tried to enter the PRIDE MW (LHW 205 lbs) tournament. He didn't stick to the gameplan, and obviously looked a level below Rampage. Hilarious.

Pride is/was not overrated, you are the epitome of a poster watching past the prime, with a modern day viewpoint, forever locked into your after the fact repeated viewings. You have to remember it for what it was, the time period, how back then, that was the new, and you can't have your modern day viewpoints affecting it. Which is precisely what is happening. The aura/the aesthetic is real and a point that is not brought up, it is hard to put into words. The energy was different. We're comparing a live show from the Mohegan Sun Arena, to constant, continous sold out shows at the Saitama Super Arena, Tokyo Dome, collaborations with K1 that toppled 90,000 viewers in the arena. All of this compared to another sold out po-dunk Mohegan Sun Arena show. Pride had the aura of being the best, because it was. It was massive. Characters like WAND/CROCOP instilled fear on a primal level that is currently not seen or felt in modern MMA. There was a fear of the unknown, the ruleset was more terrifying. There's a whole psychological aspect that is not explored on the fighters in PRIDE. Back then there was nothing to compare this to. Everything was more intense, the stakes were higher. All of this was going on, while Randy was spanking Tito. A big whoop. UFC's largest crowd size was 57K. Pride FC was continuously putting on shows of way bigger magnitude, importance, skill set, etc. You weren't around back then, so you don't remember these things, you don't remember the spectacle, you don't understand the skill sets, compared to what was being offered in the UFC.

To say PRIDE was shady as fuck, but then ignore the UFC is another lol. There are many elite fighters of PRIDE that would easily hold their own, including K1 fighters of stand up. You weren't there, you watch the reruns with your new perspective. You simply don't understand.

 

[Sean_wongster_wongmastter]

Timing, 20 years ago, 30 years ago, is irrelevant since we are talking fantasy matchups. Many PRIDE stars went on to become UFC champions directly afterwards anyways. Those with the eye, can see the elite of PRIDE would have given trouble to any modern day match up, especially if we're talking where the LHW and HW divisions are at these days.

Most LHWs 20 years ago, would still be LHWs today. What kind of reasoning is that? Do you even know the weight limit of the PRIDE FC LHW division? It was still 205 pounds, just called Middleweight in their own way of describing their divisions. Pride MW division = modernday / 20 year ago UFC LHW division. It's always been 205 pounds, so that is a stupid take you have, one not based in reality, history, or proper perspective. Arona, Wand, Rampage, Shogun were ALWAYS 205 pounds. lol. You weren't there or around.

It absolutely makes a difference if you were watching then, otherwise you wouldn't pull shit out of your ass believing that Arona, Wand, Rampage, Shogun would be MW fighters today. That makes no sense, since they never fought at 185 pounds in PRIDE, it was always at 205 pounds, just called MW by PRIDE FC. You're missing on little details like that, which IMO expose how little you actually know/understand about PRIDE FC and these fighters. To say that you don't remember how bad the "talent" being is also a stupid observation. Anyone watching back then knew, that this talent was infinite, way better than current UFC offering, without a doubt. It was like watching the amateurs + a few US stars, and then a real international fight league of epic proportions. PRIDE's roster smoked the UFC roster on any day especially in the early 2000s. While Randy was tearing up Tito and Chuck, the LHW (MW - still 205 lbs) division of Pride was putting on tournaments, the best fighting the best, in clear visual proweress of the elite skills. And we all saw what happened to Chuck when he tried to enter the PRIDE MW (LHW 205 lbs) tournament. He didn't stick to the gameplan, and obviously looked a level below Rampage. Hilarious.

Pride is/was not overrated, you are the epitome of a poster watching past the prime, with a modern day viewpoint, forever locked into your after the fact repeated viewings. You have to remember it for what it was, the time period, how back then, that was the new, and you can't have your modern day viewpoints affecting it. Which is precisely what is happening. The aura/the aesthetic is real and a point that is not brought up, it is hard to put into words. The energy was different. We're comparing a live show from the Mohegan Sun Arena, to constant, continous sold out shows at the Saitama Super Arena, Tokyo Dome, collaborations with K1 that toppled 90,000 viewers in the arena. All of this compared to another sold out po-dunk Mohegan Sun Arena show. Pride had the aura of being the best, because it was. It was massive. Characters like WAND/CROCOP instilled fear on a primal level that is currently not seen or felt in modern MMA. There was a fear of the unknown, the ruleset was more terrifying. There's a whole psychological aspect that is not explored on the fighters in PRIDE. Back then there was nothing to compare this to. Everything was more intense, the stakes were higher. All of this was going on, while Randy was spanking Tito. A big whoop. UFC's largest crowd size was 57K. Pride FC was continuously putting on shows of way bigger magnitude, importance, skill set, etc. You weren't around back then, so you don't remember these things, you don't remember the spectacle, you don't understand the skill sets, compared to what was being offered in the UFC.

To say PRIDE was shady as fuck, but then ignore the UFC is another lol. There are many elite fighters of PRIDE that would easily hold their own, including K1 fighters of stand up. You weren't there, you watch the reruns with your new perspective. You simply don't understand.

You seem like you would be a huge pro wrestling fan.

I mean… the spectacle aspect of Pride was basically just New Japan Pro Wrestling. Pride FC basically just NJPW with real violence.

I was a huge Japanese pro wrestling fan so I watched some Pride, basically stole their business model and didn’t do it nearly as well. Modern UFC is far more similar to a real sporting event feel, where as Pride events is basically wrestlemania lol.

 

[Killer Kadoogan]

You seem like you would be a huge pro wrestling fan.

I mean… the spectacle aspect of Pride was basically just New Japan Pro Wrestling. Pride FC basically just NJPW with real violence.

I was a huge Japanese pro wrestling fan so I watched some Pride, basically stole their business model and didn’t do it nearly as well. Modern UFC is far more similar to a real sporting event feel, where as Pride events is basically wrestlemania lol.

Nope, can't stand pro wrestlinguru. PRIDE was the pinnacle of MMA, a real rule set, strikes to a grounded opponent, with the far better roster as their UFC counterpart, during that time, there is simply no question about that. I am also of the belief that the best of PRIDE, in their primes, could hold their own today against 99% of the divisions. modern day HW / LHW is full of nobodies in the grand scheme. Modern UFC is fucking bollocks, nothing feels like a real sporting event, it feels like mainstream BS, no uniqueness, same uniforms, same jingles, same intros/outros, very little greatness, very few stars. PRIDE was the pinnacle of MMA, the pure talent, combined with the aesthetics, larger than life feel, rule set, respect to the fighters, and the most devastating matchups, fights of all time. You can't tell me PRIDE was putting on their events, and that that should have compared to the likes of Evan Tanner, Edwin Dewees, Tito Ortiz, Elvis Sinosic, Justin Eilers, Paul Buentellos. It wasn't even the same. Fuck pro wrestling. PRIDE NEVER DIE

 

[otro]

Yeah the poll is exactly as I thought... sherdoggers know whatsup.

This HW generation is nothing but bums and clowns

 

[Sean_wongster_wongmastter]

Nope, can't stand pro wrestlinguru. PRIDE was the pinnacle of MMA, a real rule set, strikes to a grounded opponent, with the far better roster as their UFC counterpart, during that time, there is simply no question about that. I am also of the belief that the best of PRIDE, in their primes, could hold their own today against 99% of the divisions. modern day HW / LHW is full of nobodies in the grand scheme. Modern UFC is fucking bollocks, nothing feels like a real sporting event, it feels like mainstream BS, no uniqueness, same uniforms, same jingles, same intros/outros, very little greatness, very few stars. PRIDE was the pinnacle of MMA, the pure talent, combined with the aesthetics, larger than life feel, rule set, respect to the fighters, and the most devastating matchups, fights of all time. You can't tell me PRIDE was putting on their events, and that that should have compared to the likes of Evan Tanner, Edwin Dewees, Tito Ortiz, Elvis Sinosic, Justin Eilers, Paul Buentellos. It wasn't even the same. Fuck pro wrestling. PRIDE NEVER DIE

Fuck pro wrestling? Pride FC was born from pro wrestling lol. Nobuhiko Takada basically made Pride into what it was and he was basically Japan’s Hulk Hogan.

Pride FC was all pro wrestling (entrances, promos, announcing, interviews before and after fights) only part that wasn’t pro wrestling was just that it involved real fighting.

Pride FC was pro wrestling.

 

[Killer Kadoogan]

Fuck pro wrestling? Pride FC was born from pro wrestling lol. Nobuhiko Takada basically made Pride into what it was and he was basically Japan’s Hulk Hogan.

Pride FC was all pro wrestling (entrances, promos, announcing, interviews before and after fights) only part that wasn’t pro wrestling was just that it involved real fighting.

Pride FC was pro wrestling.

Fuck Pro Wrestling, I understand who Takada was and still, fuck pro wrestling. Pride FC had some exhibition matches, had the entrances, the aesthetics, but the best fights were undoubtedly real MMA, with the added bonus of strikes to a downed opponent. entrances, promos, announcing, interviews, are also MMA. it's not just pro wrestling. lol. fuck pro wrestling. that shit sucks.

 

[Doctor Grudge]

Fuck Pro Wrestling, I understand who Takada was and still, fuck pro wrestling. Pride FC had some exhibition matches, had the entrances, the aesthetics, but the best fights were undoubtedly real MMA, with the added bonus of strikes to a downed opponent. entrances, promos, announcing, interviews, are also MMA. it's not just pro wrestling. lol. fuck pro wrestling. that shit sucks.

Pretty much all the things you like about Pride vs other MMA orgs are the fact that it was basically a Pro Wrestling org lol.

The fact that their promotion uses pro wrestling tactics so well is why you're putting fighters on a pedestal. You said today's 205ers are nobodies - uh, I guarantee you Vadim Nemkov, Alex Peireira, Jiri, and the likes would all be more than competitive with Rampage, Silva, Arona. Maybe because you're still thinking about the Anthony Smith and Reyes era but 205 has developed.

And 170 and under in PRIDE needed a ton of work, and the big reason why it was neglected for so long is precisely because it was influenced heavily by Pro Wrestling. They did not really take the competitive aspect that seriously, and in Japan they still do not.

If I had to rank the most entertaining promos Pride would be #1 probably and the UFC would be like...5 but you're looking at Pride with rose tinted glasses. It had its limitations and weaknesses just like any other org.

 

[Sean_wongster_wongmastter]

Fuck Pro Wrestling, I understand who Takada was and still, fuck pro wrestling. Pride FC had some exhibition matches, had the entrances, the aesthetics, but the best fights were undoubtedly real MMA, with the added bonus of strikes to a downed opponent. entrances, promos, announcing, interviews, are also MMA. it's not just pro wrestling. lol. fuck pro wrestling. that shit sucks.

Okay… lol… I just find it funny that many of the reasons you state why Pride is great is almost word for word why pro wrestling fans state pro wrestling is great ( big stadiums, epic moments, larger than life characters, entrances, promos, ect.) I’m a pro wrestling fan so I generally feel like I know how pro wrestling fans talk like, and you sir, talk like a pro wrestling fan, in my humble opinion.

 

[Sean_wongster_wongmastter]

Pretty much all the things you like about Pride vs other MMA orgs are the fact that it was basically a Pro Wrestling org lol.

The fact that their promotion uses pro wrestling tactics so well is why you're putting fighters on a pedestal. You said today's 205ers are nobodies - uh, I guarantee you Vadim Nemkov, Alex Peireira, Jiri, and the likes would all be more than competitive with Rampage, Silva, Arona. Maybe because you're still thinking about the Anthony Smith and Reyes era but 205 has developed.

And 170 and under in PRIDE needed a ton of work, and the big reason why it was neglected for so long is precisely because it was influenced heavily by Pro Wrestling. They did not really take the competitive aspect that seriously, and in Japan they still do not.

If I had to rank the most entertaining promos Pride would be #1 probably and the UFC would be like...5 but you're looking at Pride with rose tinted glasses. It had its limitations and weaknesses just like any other org.

Size matters a lot in pro wrestling, exactly why the lower divisions in Pride were so weak.

Gotta be sized like Hulk Hogan to be a star. I mean, that’s why Pride FC had an unhealthy love with oversized giant monsters like Bobb Sapp.

 

[TeenageMutantLesnarTurtle]

Timing, 20 years ago, 30 years ago, is irrelevant since we are talking fantasy matchups. Many PRIDE stars went on to become UFC champions directly afterwards anyways. Those with the eye, can see the elite of PRIDE would have given trouble to any modern day match up, especially if we're talking where the LHW and HW divisions are at these days.

Most LHWs 20 years ago, would still be LHWs today. What kind of reasoning is that? Do you even know the weight limit of the PRIDE FC LHW division? It was still 205 pounds, just called Middleweight in their own way of describing their divisions. Pride MW division = modernday / 20 year ago UFC LHW division. It's always been 205 pounds, so that is a stupid take you have, one not based in reality, history, or proper perspective. Arona, Wand, Rampage, Shogun were ALWAYS 205 pounds. lol. You weren't there or around.

It absolutely makes a difference if you were watching then, otherwise you wouldn't pull shit out of your ass believing that Arona, Wand, Rampage, Shogun would be MW fighters today. That makes no sense, since they never fought at 185 pounds in PRIDE, it was always at 205 pounds, just called MW by PRIDE FC. You're missing on little details like that, which IMO expose how little you actually know/understand about PRIDE FC and these fighters. To say that you don't remember how bad the "talent" being is also a stupid observation. Anyone watching back then knew, that this talent was infinite, way better than current UFC offering, without a doubt. It was like watching the amateurs + a few US stars, and then a real international fight league of epic proportions. PRIDE's roster smoked the UFC roster on any day especially in the early 2000s. While Randy was tearing up Tito and Chuck, the LHW (MW - still 205 lbs) division of Pride was putting on tournaments, the best fighting the best, in clear visual proweress of the elite skills. And we all saw what happened to Chuck when he tried to enter the PRIDE MW (LHW 205 lbs) tournament. He didn't stick to the gameplan, and obviously looked a level below Rampage. Hilarious.

Pride is/was not overrated, you are the epitome of a poster watching past the prime, with a modern day viewpoint, forever locked into your after the fact repeated viewings. You have to remember it for what it was, the time period, how back then, that was the new, and you can't have your modern day viewpoints affecting it. Which is precisely what is happening. The aura/the aesthetic is real and a point that is not brought up, it is hard to put into words. The energy was different. We're comparing a live show from the Mohegan Sun Arena, to constant, continous sold out shows at the Saitama Super Arena, Tokyo Dome, collaborations with K1 that toppled 90,000 viewers in the arena. All of this compared to another sold out po-dunk Mohegan Sun Arena show. Pride had the aura of being the best, because it was. It was massive. Characters like WAND/CROCOP instilled fear on a primal level that is currently not seen or felt in modern MMA. There was a fear of the unknown, the ruleset was more terrifying. There's a whole psychological aspect that is not explored on the fighters in PRIDE. Back then there was nothing to compare this to. Everything was more intense, the stakes were higher. All of this was going on, while Randy was spanking Tito. A big whoop. UFC's largest crowd size was 57K. Pride FC was continuously putting on shows of way bigger magnitude, importance, skill set, etc. You weren't around back then, so you don't remember these things, you don't remember the spectacle, you don't understand the skill sets, compared to what was being offered in the UFC.

To say PRIDE was shady as fuck, but then ignore the UFC is another lol. There are many elite fighters of PRIDE that would easily hold their own, including K1 fighters of stand up. You weren't there, you watch the reruns with your new perspective. You simply don't understand.

You are constantly flip flopping in your words from "the Pride elite would hold their own" "they'd give trouble to the modern guys" etc, which I would overall agree with, to "they'd wipe the floor with everyone today, virtually nobody would even trouble them" which is obviously hyperbolic.

And yes, most Pride LHWs would be MWs today, because the average size of fighters in basically every weight class has increased. Modern day FWs are typically 00s LW sized, LWs are WW sized, WWs are MW sized etc etc.

Rakic - 6'5
Walker - 6'5
Poatan - 6'4
Jiri - 6'4
Hill - 6'4
Smith - 6'4
Ankalaev - 6'3
Glover - 6'2
Jan - 6'2
Chuck - 6'2
Tito - 6'2
Shogun - 6'1
Rampage - 6'1
Randy - 6'1
Hendo - 6'1
Vitor - 6'0
Arona - 5'11
Wand - 5'10

Again the "you werent watching back then" argument is, for one, in this case untrue, but either way its lame as fuck honestly, and not really relevant to the discussion because we arent judging Pride by the standards of 00s MMA or the UFC of that time, we are talking about Pride compared to modern day UFC. Whether I was around back then to jack off to Pride opening ceremonies or not has zero bearing on the development of the sports talent level. I feel like part of the reason some people Pride fanboy is to sound more "hardcore" or something. Its so stupid especially nowadays when some kid whos been watching a few months has instant access to pretty much the entire Pride, UFC, Strikeforce, WEC etc library.

Characters like WAND/CROCOP instilled fear on a primal level that is currently not seen or felt in modern MMA

Ngannou and Poatan are every bit as scary as Wand and Cro Cop ever were.

 

[Killer Kadoogan]

Ngannou and Poatan are every bit as scary as Wand and Cro Cop ever were.

besides your whole post being wrong, no PRIDE MW (205 lb) fighter ever fought at 185 lbs in PRIDE besides maybe Hendo. But he was doing that before, always jumping around. The LHWs were LHWs. Simple as. Saying but in these times they would be MW, makes no damn sense. Also, Ngannou / Poatan does not possess not even 1/4th the aura that Prime Wand and Cro Cop had. Especially Cro Cop. that is laughable. you weren't watching back then to make a statement like that, it is what it is.

 

[DayV]

You are constantly flip flopping in your words from "the Pride elite would hold their own" "they'd give trouble to the modern guys" etc, which I would overall agree with, to "they'd wipe the floor with everyone today, virtually nobody would even trouble them" which is obviously hyperbolic.

And yes, most Pride LHWs would be MWs today, because the average size of fighters in basically every weight class has increased. Modern day FWs are typically 00s LW sized, LWs are WW sized, WWs are MW sized etc etc.

Rakic - 6'5
Walker - 6'5
Poatan - 6'4
Jiri - 6'4
Hill - 6'4
Smith - 6'4
Ankalaev - 6'3
Glover - 6'2
Jan - 6'2
Chuck - 6'2
Tito - 6'2
Shogun - 6'1
Rampage - 6'1
Randy - 6'1
Hendo - 6'1
Vitor - 6'0
Arona - 5'11
Wand - 5'10

Again the "you werent watching back then" argument is, for one, in this case untrue, but either way its lame as fuck honestly, and not really relevant to the discussion because we arent judging Pride by the standards of 00s MMA or the UFC of that time, we are talking about Pride compared to modern day UFC. Whether I was around back then to jack off to Pride opening ceremonies or not has zero bearing on the development of the sports talent level. I feel like part of the reason some people Pride fanboy is to sound more "hardcore" or something. Its so stupid especially nowadays when some kid whos been watching a few months has instant access to pretty much the entire Pride, UFC, Strikeforce, WEC etc library.



Ngannou and Poatan are every bit as scary as Wand and Cro Cop ever were.

Those are Heavyweights who manage to cutt weight in modern UFC system because they fight only once-twice per year and have months to cutt weight.

In Pride they would have to fight 4-5 times per year in tournamets and on 2 weeks notice, and they would have not be able to cutt weight becaue one's body cannot maintain that for a long.

Also, size matters less in the ring than in the cage.
You have a lot less space to move, you can be closed to corners, so your lenght/reach is not such a big advantage as in the octagon where it is hard to hit taller longer opponent.
Weight advantage is not that important in the ring, you cannot utilize body to body clinching and wrestling, fence walling nowhere as much as in the cage where size and mass give big advantage. Clinching time is a lot shorter on the ropes, easier to get out of, and refs break it a lot sooner.

Small japanese or brazilian guy who is an expert in submissions can beat bigger guy if he has 10 minute round to work, GI kimono allowed to utilize as a tool and to keep traction, no elbows so bottom position is a lot safer to work from, no fence pressuring so he has freedom of movement with restarts in the middle, no sitting up- standing up using fence as support.
Just look what small Minowa did to huge brawlers and strikers like Yvel, Kimo Leopoldo, Leko, Zimmerman, type of big guys you often see in UFC HW division.

Especially in the Pride rules, it is not a weight in contest where guy with bigger number on the weight machine automatically wins and gets a blue ribbon on the country fair, it is a fight where everything can happen.

 

[TeenageMutantLesnarTurtle]

besides your whole post being wrong, no PRIDE MW (205 lb) fighter ever fought at 185 lbs in PRIDE. The LHWs were LHWs. Simple as. Saying but in these times they would be MW, makes no damn sense.

Lol Jesus...

THE AVERAGE SIZE OF FIGHTERS IN EVERY WEIGHT CLASS HAS INCREASED SINCE THEN. How are you not getting that? I literally listed the heights of the current LHWs vs the top LHWs of back then to illustrate the point.

Also, Ngannou / Poatan does not possess not even 1/4th the aura that Prime Wand and Cro Cop had. Especially Cro Cop. that is laughable. you weren't watching back then to make a statement like that, it is what it is.

Okay okay, Ngannou, who is 2 inches taller than Cro Cop, has a 10 inch reach advantage, is about 30lbs of muscle mass heavier and who arguably just got robbed of becoming the HW boxing champ of the world in his first boxing match, is nowhere near as intimidating as a guy who got knocked out cold by a washed up SEG UFC era 5'9 wrestler, and also KTFO by Gabriel Gonzaga like 6 months after winning the Pride Openweight GP lol.

And yeah how could 6'4 Poatan and his left hook be anywhere near as scary as 5'10 Wand who got stopped by Vitor in under a minute before he even went to Pride.

Wand is in my top 10 favourite fighters ever too. You're being so retarded with your delusional Pride nuthugging that you're making me shit on fighters I like because you're overrating them so much.

you weren't watching back then to make a statement like that, it is what it is.

Again, lame argument, and irrelevant to the discussion. You have no idea when I started watching and theres no way for either of us to prove or disprove, and none of it matters anyway.

The reason Cro Cop and Wand have an "aura" is as much to do with the sport being in its early years + Prides larger than life presentation as it has to do with the fighters themselves. I'm not sure how you cant look past the smoke and mirrors to see that. You could throw a bunch of the "nobodies" and "bums" of today into a Pride ring back in the day and you'd be here now talking about the aura they had and how good they were lol.

 

[TeenageMutantLesnarTurtle]

Those are Heavyweights who manage to cutt weight in modern UFC system because they fight only once-twice per year and have months to cutt weight.

In Pride they would have to fight 4-5 times per year in tournamets and on 2 weeks notice, and they would have not be able to cutt weight becaue one's body cannot maintain that for a long.

Also, size matters less in the ring than in the cage.
You have a lot less space to move, you can be closed to corners, so your lenght/reach is not such a big advantage as in the octagon where it is hard to hit taller longer opponent.
Weight advantage is not that important in the ring, you cannot utilize body to body clinching and wrestling, fence walling nowhere as much as in the cage where size and mass give big advantage. Clinching time is a lot shorter on the ropes, easier to get out of, and refs break it a lot sooner.

Small japanese or brazilian guy who is an expert in submissions can beat bigger guy if he has 10 minute round to work, GI kimono allowed to utilize as a tool and to keep traction, no elbows so bottom position is a lot safer to work from, no fence pressuring so he has freedom of movement with restarts in the middle, no sitting up- standing up using fence as support.
Just look what small Minowa did to huge brawlers and strikers like Yvel, Kimo Leopoldo, Leko, Zimmerman, type of big guys you often see in UFC HW division.

Especially in the Pride rules, it is not a weight in contest where guy with bigger number on the weight machine automatically wins and gets a blue ribbon on the country fair, it is a fight where everything can happen.

You make some fair points.

 

[Killer Kadoogan]

Okay… lol… I just find it funny that many of the reasons you state why Pride is great is almost word for word why pro wrestling fans state pro wrestling is great ( big stadiums, epic moments, larger than life characters, entrances, promos, ect.) I’m a pro wrestling fan so I generally feel like I know how pro wrestling fans talk like, and you sir, talk like a pro wrestling fan, in my humble opinion.

i mean, most sports have large stadiums, interviews, epic moments, larger than life characters, entrances, promos, that is not unique to pro wrestling at all. can't stand pro wrestling. but i also understand the connections PRIDE had. i mean look at UFC, they unironically signed CM Punk. LOL.

 

[Killer Kadoogan]

Lol Jesus...

THE AVERAGE SIZE OF FIGHTERS IN EVERY WEIGHT CLASS HAS INCREASED SINCE THEN. How are you not getting that? I literally listed the heights of the current LHWs vs the top LHWs of back then to illustrate the point.



Okay okay, Ngannou, who is 2 inches taller than Cro Cop, has a 10 inch reach advantage, is about 30lbs of muscle mass heavier and who arguably just got robbed of becoming the HW boxing champ of the world in his first boxing match, is nowhere near as intimidating as a guy who got knocked out cold by a washed up SEG UFC era 5'9 wrestler, and also KTFO by Gabriel Gonzaga like 6 months after winning the Pride Openweight GP lol.

And yeah how could 6'4 Poatan and his left hook be anywhere near as scary as 5'10 Wand who got stopped by Vitor in under a minute before he even went to Pride.

Wand is in my top 10 favourite fighters ever too. You're being so retarded with your delusional Pride nuthugging that you're making me shit on fighters I like because you're overrating them so much.




Again, lame argument, and irrelevant to the discussion. You have no idea when I started watching and theres no way for either of us to prove or disprove, and none of it matters anyway.

The reason Cro Cop and Wand have an "aura" is as much to do with the sport being in its early years + Prides larger than life presentation as it has to do with the fighters themselves. I'm not sure how you cant look past the smoke and mirrors to see that. You could throw a bunch of the "nobodies" and "bums" of today into a Pride ring back in the day and you'd be here now talking about the aura they had and how good they were lol.

another dumbass take. just because height may have increased, doesn't mean the actual weight does you dumb dumb. every PRIDE MW fighter fought at, or below the allowance of 205 LBS. you saying, that in the modern age they would be MWs is an absolute retard take, backed by nothing but your own ignorance and lack of understanding. They all still weighed 205 lbs. They wouldn't just magically cut to MW because of their heights. That is super dumb. Shogun, Rampage even went on to become the UFC LHW champs, at guess what, 205 lbs.???? Crazy I know. You are ignoring actual weight, just like your argument.

Again, you weren't there or around, because you saying Ngannou / Poatan has even a tenth of the aura of invicibility that Wand had or Cro Cop had is laughable. Ngannou is a big teddy bear. Absolute nice dude, he has no intimidating aura factor. Wand / Cro Cop at their heights were unstoppable T1000s created by the future, sent into destroy the spirit of man in the most brutal way possible. No staredown that Ngannou/Poatan has ever done, has ever given chicken skin like that of Wand / Cro Cop 1. That is the aura we are talking about. You weren't there, and it's so obvious.

You're mad when I say it, because it's true and you have nothing to refute. You weren't watching in the golden era of early 2000s - 2006, it tells. You wouldn't even be saying half the shit you are, if you were watching. You are a noob.