Who's the 3rd GOAT behind Jordan and LeBron?

[gspieler]

Start by listing all the other players in NBA history who've grabbed 4 MVPs and 3 FMVPs

Magic? Nope
Kareem? Nope
Wilt? Nope
Bird? Nope
Shaq? Nope

And LeBron's career isn't even over yet. Realistically, he should be awarded another MVP this season (should've been MVP in 2011 as well but voters literally made their minds up to blackball him before the first game of the season was played)

Then there's the individual stats, both raw boxscore and advanced, where LeBron destroys everyone not named Michael Jordan

Not every player has been the beneficiary of the league bending over backwards to stack a team around him for >a decade, either. You don't have the opportunity to win FMVP if you're not essentially gifted a stacked team, in the weaker conference every year. Not saying Lebron isn't an ATG, but there's a myriad of factors into the GOAT moniker, and Lebron falls noticeably short in several areas IMO. Comparing him to Bird is one thing; comparing him to MJ(at this point) is a fantasy.

 

[faustian]

Bird's Celtics weren't stacked with HOFers?

Magic's Lakes weren't stacked with HOFers?

I'm not saying LeBron > MJ but LeBron is imo the definitive 2nd best basketball player of all-time

 

[kflo]

You could replace Lebrick with several other names, and you statement would still (probably) be true. Magic, Kareem, Wilt, Bird, Shaq, etc.

Just curious; what's the basis for argument that Lebron is top 3 all time, at this point?

seriously???

what's the argument he's not? it's alot harder to make that case.

 

[gspieler]

Bird's Celtics weren't stacked with HOFers?

Magic's Lakes weren't stacked with HOFers?

I'm not saying LeBron > MJ but LeBron is imo the definitive 2nd best basketball player of all-time

Yeah, Bird, Magic both had staked teams as well(though it happened organically). How about Wilt? Hakeem? KAJ(70's)? Big O? Are these guys excluded from the discussion because the league didn't pair them with HOF'ers?

I still haven't seen a great argument for Lebron being the clear #2. His stats are incredible by any measure, but so are Wilt's, KAJ's, etc. It's also arguable that Lebron is a stat-padder in an era where, due to various circumstances, stats are cheaper than in previous decades. And sure, he's been to a lot of Finals, but he's been on one league-manufactured super-team after another, coming out of the weaker division. Let alone that, despite being on loaded teams, his Finals record leaves much to be desired.

Lebron is clearly top 10 all-time, but definitively stating he is the number 2 is a pretty big stretch IMO. There's a handful of other players, with comparable resumes, that also happened to excel in the subjective areas that Lebron tends to receive criticism for. Just my thoughts. If someone claims Lebron and MJ are the Woods and Nicholaus of basketball, so be it. I'd just have to disagree, though.

 

[gspieler]

seriously???

what's the argument he's not? it's alot harder to make that case.

For example...KAJ: more points, more rebounds, more rings, better Finals record, sheer longevity(at the time of this post), etc.

 

[kflo]

Not every player has been the beneficiary of the league bending over backwards to stack a team around him for >a decade, either. You don't have the opportunity to win FMVP if you're not essentially gifted a stacked team, in the weaker conference every year. Not saying Lebron isn't an ATG, but there's a myriad of factors into the GOAT moniker, and Lebron falls noticeably short in several areas IMO. Comparing him to Bird is one thing; comparing him to MJ(at this point) is a fantasy.

what possible area does he fall short??

comparing him to mj is frankly alot closer than bird. lebron has been the clear best player in the league for FAR longer than bird ever was, and he's had more overall success. he's had better durability, numbers, defense, awards.

 

[gspieler]

what possible area does he fall short??

comparing him to mj is frankly alot closer than bird. lebron has been the clear best player in the league for FAR longer than bird ever was, and he's had more overall success. he's had better durability, numbers, defense, awards.

Finals record
Leadership ability
Overall clutchness
Running to another 1st Team All NBA player's team
Toughness
Signature wins/series(sans 2016)
Etc

It's nitpicking, but at the GOAT level, subjective qualities mean a lot IMO. Everyone has other-worldly stats who's in the top 10.

 

[kflo]

For example...KAJ: more points, more rebounds, more rings, better Finals record, sheer longevity(at the time of this post), etc.

lebron will already surpass kareem in top 3 mvp's after this year, and that's without a competing pro league. it's almost impossible to fathom lebron playing on teams that are sub .500. look, kareem was great, he simply didn't have the same impact lebron has. the majority of kareem's rings he wasn't the best player on his team.

 

[kflo]

Finals record
Leadership ability
Overall clutchness
Running to another 1st Team All NBA player's team
Toughness
Signature wins/series(sans 2016)
Etc

It's nitpicking, but at the GOAT level, subjective qualities mean a lot IMO. Everyone has other-worldly stats who's in the top 10.

wtf do you know about kareem's leadership? he was aloof. was he a leader when the bucks were having a losing season? kareem didn't run to another team, he got fuckin traded. he was considered soft at times in his career. finals record where he was a supporting player, and ignore the times he missed the playoffs in his prime, or didn't make the finals, in his prime. what were his signature series and wins? when he had a migraine?

and i do like kareem, rooted for the lakers and am old enough to have seen even the latter parts of his prime.

 

[gspieler]

lebron will already surpass kareem in top 3 mvp's after this year, and that's without a competing pro league. it's almost impossible to fathom lebron playing on teams that are sub .500. look, kareem was great, he simply didn't have the same impact lebron has. the majority of kareem's rings he wasn't the best player on his team.

And when Lebron was with prime Wade/Bosh, and couldn't beat a Mavs that had Dirk + role players, does that make any statement about Lebron? How about not being able to close the deal with Irving/Love when he went back to Cleavland? Lebron has done a lot in the league, but he's also been gifted a lot. Other ATG's who have been similarly gifted(MJ, Magic, Bird, KAJ) tend to have better Finals resumes. I'm not claiming Lebron isn't in the discussion; I'm claiming he's not the clear-cut #2.

 

[gspieler]

wtf do you know about kareem's leadership? he was aloof. was he a leader when the bucks were having a losing season? kareem didn't run to another team, he got fuckin traded. he was considered soft at times in his career. finals record where he was a supporting player, and ignore the times he missed the playoffs in his prime, or didn't make the finals, in his prime. what were his signature series and wins? when he had a migraine?

and i do like kareem, rooted for the lakers and am old enough to have seen even the latter parts of his prime.

I made no statement about Kareem's leadership ability. I claimed that it is often a source of criticism for Lebron(which it is). With due respect, Lebron is one of those guys that looks like a great leader when they're winning. When they're slumping; he tends to blame anybody but himself. That's not how great leaders act IMHO.

 

[kflo]

Yeah, Bird, Magic both had staked teams as well(though it happened organically). How about Wilt? Hakeem? KAJ(70's)? Big O? Are these guys excluded from the discussion because the league didn't pair them with HOF'ers?

I still haven't seen a great argument for Lebron being the clear #2. His stats are incredible by any measure, but so are Wilt's, KAJ's, etc. It's also arguable that Lebron is a stat-padder in an era where, due to various circumstances, stats are cheaper than in previous decades. And sure, he's been to a lot of Finals, but he's been on one league-manufactured super-team after another, coming out of the weaker division. Let alone that, despite being on loaded teams, his Finals record leaves much to be desired.

Lebron is clearly top 10 all-time, but definitively stating he is the number 2 is a pretty big stretch IMO. There's a handful of other players, with comparable resumes, that also happened to excel in the subjective areas that Lebron tends to receive criticism for. Just my thoughts. If someone claims Lebron and MJ are the Woods and Nicholaus of basketball, so be it. I'd just have to disagree, though.

he's #2 all-time in player efficiency rating, which smashes your stats are cheaper argument. he's finished top 3 10 times. how have his cleveland teams been league manufactured super-teams???

again, noone has comparable resumes objectively, and the subjective criticisms aren't backed by fact.

 

[kflo]

I made no statement about Kareem's leadership ability. I claimed that it is often a source of criticism for Lebron(which it is). With due respect, Lebron is one of those guys that looks like a great leader when they're winning. When they're slumping; he tends to blame anybody but himself. That's not how great leaders act IMHO.

note everything is a source of criticism for lebron from his haters. and you're making up your criticisms here too.

 

[gspieler]

he's #2 all-time in player efficiency rating, which smashes your stats are cheaper argument. he's finished top 3 10 times. how have his cleveland teams been league manufactured super-teams???

again, noone has comparable resumes objectively, and the subjective criticisms aren't backed by fact.

Leaves Cleaveland to join Wade/Bosh, wins a few rings, goes back to a team that has Irving/Love. Pure coincidence that he's joining teams that already loaded, I suppose.

Wilt, Magic, KAJ, Bird, Big O, Kobe, Shaq, Hakeem, Timmeh, and Kobe all have resumes close enough to be debatable, objectively. The fact that the subjective arguments are not based in fact, are what make them subjective. And when you're comparing players with similar resumes, the subjective criteria is what separates them. Lebron is not as good in the subjective areas of the game as SOME of the other ATG's IMO.

 

[gspieler]

note everything is a source of criticism for lebron from his haters. and you're making up your criticisms here too.

Are you actually claiming Lebron's leadership ability hasn't come into question? Furthermore, do you honestly think he is on par with guys like Magic et al, in terms of leadership ability?

 

[kflo]

Leaves Cleaveland to join Wade/Bosh, wins a few rings, goes back to a team that has Irving/Love. Pure coincidence that he's joining teams that already loaded, I suppose.

Wilt, Magic, KAJ, Bird, Big O, Kobe, Shaq, Hakeem, Timmeh, and Kobe all have resumes close enough to be debatable, objectively. The fact that the subjective arguments are not based in fact, are what make them subjective. And when you're comparing players with similar resumes, the subjective criteria is what separates them. Lebron is not as good in the subjective areas of the game as SOME of the other ATG's IMO.

love wasn't there when he signed with them. they traded for him, with the #1 pick.

honestly, he's closer to jordan than most of those names. there's literally zero argument for guys like magic, bird, kobe, big o, hakeem, tim. they just weren't as dominant, as successful, as long. they just didn't occupy the same space in the league as lebron. they didn't.

 

[UncleJosh]

I love Bird more than any player but my family knew him back in the 80's before he was told to stay away from my uncle after a famous bar fight and think he is one of best players of all time but not in the top 3.

However I would argue he was the best player of all time with the least amount of physical gifts. Every single one of the others in most peoples GOAT lists have athletic ability that far exceeds Larry Legend on his best day. Yet he was able to compete with and even beat some of the best of all time when he played. That to me is more impressive than Lebron who is a physical freak and a specimen unlike any other. Of course Lebron should dominate and be one of the best. Come on!

 

[gspieler]

love wasn't there when he signed with them. they traded for him, with the #1 pick.

honestly, he's closer to jordan than most of those names. there's literally zero argument for guys like magic, bird, kobe, big o, hakeem, tim. they just weren't as dominant, as successful, as long. they just didn't occupy the same space in the league as lebron. they didn't.

Yeah, he was coming back to a team with Irving(superstar just reaching his prime), and either a lottery pick or Love. There was no illusion he was coming back to anything but a contender.

And all of those guys were dominant, similarly to Lebron. You act as if Lebron never had any rivals. Kobe, KD, Dirk, Steph, Wade, Duncan, have all gotten the better of Lebron, at one time or another.

 

[gspieler]

I love Bird more than any player but my family knew him back in the 80's before he was told to stay away from my uncle after a famous bar fight and think he is one of best players of all time but not in the top 3.

However I would argue he was the best player of all time with the least amount of physical gifts. Every single one of the others in most peoples GOAT lists have athletic ability that far exceeds Larry Legend on his best day. Yet he was able to compete with and even beat some of the best of all time when he played. That to me is more impressive than Lebron who is a physical freak and a specimen unlike any other. Of course Lebron should dominate and be one of the best. Come on!

Bird and Magic were both mediocre athletes by NBA standards. What set them apart were skill, iq, toughness, and supreme court awareness.

 

[kflo]

Yeah, he was coming back to a team with Irving(superstar just reaching his prime), and either a lottery pick or Love. There was no illusion he was coming back to anything but a contender.

And all of those guys were dominant, similarly to Lebron. You act as if Lebron never had any rivals. Kobe, KD, Dirk, Steph, Wade, Duncan, have all gotten the better of Lebron, at one time or another.

they were a team that won 33 games and lost deng.

they were in no way similarly dominant. that's crazy.