Why don’t some people accept that Poverty in America is a lifestyle choice?

[Luminaire]

If his $250k is based on assumed equity in his property then it's not really $250k. I say this all of the time and people always get a little irked by it, which is understandable. Don't count the equity in your primary residence.

It was 1 component of 4... Retirement, Equity, Cash and Watches (which you decided was a joke but if you have 3 or 4 Rolex's they actually trade at very good value, still, yea it's a weird thing to factor into a net worth calculation)

Equity counts... if it's a 100k now will it be 100k tomorrow? Maybe, maybe not... will it be 100k in 10 years? Almost certainly. Not to mention that equity will only increase as you pay down your home.

It's just that smug statement that he's "even further behind"... behind what? And in any case, you don't have the information to make that determination.

 

[Falsedawn]

What does that say for those who didn’t?

 

[Scheme]

So, you're saying that if everyone went out and got degrees in computer science/math/engineering then the supply curve wouldn't affect the compensation model for those professions? Which would surprise me because it already has.

For example, in 2015 the unemployment rate for chemistry graduates was 12.4%. That's awful and that's a STEM field. There are other examples where the new job market, even for STEM majors isn't that great. Now, for those who get hired and those already in the professions, the compensation is superior.

But that's ancillary to my point - which is that the economy plays a larger role in poverty that simple work ethic unless you're stating that people getting non-STEM majors aren't working hard in their classes?

And let's not minimize that even in STEM fields, the rate of changing technology can severely impede people trying to re-train, even if they were previously in those fields.

I think people are peddling economic information and strategies that were valid 15 years ago and aren't really paying attention to where/how the modern economy is moving when discussing how the general public can improve their financial picture. It's no longer enough to say "get a STEM degree" or "just worker".

The 12.4% of people who couldn't get a job because they went into chemistry is ultimately their fault, they didn't spend enough time looking at the market and filling a need. If there is an over-saturation in the market then that will naturally lead to high unemployment. It's not the economy's fault, because the economy doesn't choose anything. It's simply a state of what is needed and what is not needed. If someone decides to go into something that is not needed, then that is their fault, for either ignorance of the job market or acceptance of an over-saturated market.

Work ethic is very important, as it often compensates for bad choices. But a combination of a work ethic and good choices is almost a guarantee of success. And luckily, both of those are mostly controllable as an individual.

I have worked as a software developer/engineer/architect for 5 years now. I constantly stay on top of the newest technologies, because if I was still stuck using Fortran in today's market it would be next to impossible to get a job. And it wouldn't be the markets fault for not having enough Fortran jobs out there, it would be my fault for lagging behind and making poor choices, despite however amazing my work ethic might have been.

 

[JonnyRingo84]

Is it pure ignorance? Denial? Poverty in America is really inexcusable. I laugh when people talk about how people are “keeping them down”. Newsflash: CEO making bank doesn’t stop you from making bank.

The thing is these people simply lack work ethic and are bad with money. They blow all their funds on trash and if they actually work they don’t want to put in the extra hours or acquire a side hustle. Once I finish my Masters I am planning on working 5 jobs. My only problem is there isn’t enough hours in the week.

what if you went to a school that averaged 30 kids in their 2nd grade classrooms? the teacher spends time keeping a lid on behavior, rather than teaching. parents who also went to shit schools, and work 2-3 minimum wage jobs? would you have the work ethic to teach YOURSELF to read? i hope so, because students who cannot read by the time they leave elementary school, almost never graduate high school.

CERTAINLY i am not arguing that everyone who is poor, is a victim of circumstance, but its absolutely idiotic to suggest that anyone who is poor is simply lazy. if you truly believe whats in the OP, then youre out of touch, and naive.

 

[superpunch]

Correct, the degree alone doesn't mean anything. There's a significant employment difference between a PhD in a STEM field and a bachelor's or an Associates. So to take the point to it's logical conclusion - everyone should just get a PhD in a STEM field and their employment issues would disappear. It's silly and over simplifies a more complex scenario.

If you show up to class, do your homework, pass your tests.. Pull a 3.0 in engineering, you're getting a job.

STEM is a catchphrase. People aren't talking about about biology, chemistry, etc. when they're saying STEM is good for getting jobs.

 

[Cubo de Sangre]

Considering that the working poor rate has remained consistent over the years (between 5-7%), it's a pretty good assumption that a working poor class is just an element of our system. Especially since people move in and out of that designation multiple times over their lives.

Yeah, there will always be people who are relatively poor. Doesn't change the fact that people dissatisfied with that status can improve their position. Just like I could do better than middle class if I were really so inclined.

 

[panamaican]

It was 1 component of 4... Retirement, Equity, Cash and Watches (which you decided was a joke but if you have 3 or 4 Rolex's they actually trade at very good value, still, yea it's a weird thing to factor into a net worth calculation)

Equity counts... if it's a 100k now will it be 100k tomorrow? Maybe, maybe not... will it be 100k in 10 years? Almost certainly. Not to mention that equity will only increase as you pay down your home.

It's just that smug statement that he's "even further behind"... behind what? And in any case, you don't have the information to make that determination.

Got it, you have a problem with my smug response but his smugness in this thread is fine. That makes no sense but whatever.

Behind what? Behind what he thinks - which is what I typed "You are further behind than you think." In that he's not really at $250k.

And I'm sorry but equity in your primary residence doesn't count. It's not real. To access it, you either has to sell the primary residence or borrow against the equity. In either case, you don't have the property and the funds simultaneously. Either you buy a new property at whatever the future housing rates are or you pay back the equity with interest.

 

[HatchetHarry]

what if you went to a school that averaged 30 kids in their 2nd grade classrooms? the teacher spends time keeping a lid on behavior, rather than teaching. parents who also went to shit schools, and work 2-3 minimum wage jobs? would you have the work ethic to teach YOURSELF to read? i hope so, because students who cannot read by the time they leave elementary school, almost never graduate high school.

CERTAINLY i am not arguing that everyone who is poor, is a victim of circumstance, but its absolutely idiotic to suggest that anyone who is poor is simply lazy. if you truly believe whats in the OP, then youre out of touch, and naive.

My 2nd grade class had more than 30 kids. My middle school had almost 4000 kids and I spent 2 out of 3 years in portable classrooms. Stop living with the victim mentality

 

[Roaming East]

My 2nd grade class had more than 30 kids. My middle school had almost 4000 kids and I spent 2 out of 3 years in portable classrooms. Stop living with the victim mentality

so edgy and hardcore

 

[HatchetHarry]

It was 1 component of 4... Retirement, Equity, Cash and Watches (which you decided was a joke but if you have 3 or 4 Rolex's they actually trade at very good value, still, yea it's a weird thing to factor into a net worth calculation)

Equity counts... if it's a 100k now will it be 100k tomorrow? Maybe, maybe not... will it be 100k in 10 years? Almost certainly. Not to mention that equity will only increase as you pay down your home.

It's just that smug statement that he's "even further behind"... behind what? And in any case, you don't have the information to make that determination.

The watches thing wasn’t a joke. My watch collection is worth like 25k. Rolex submariner, yachtmaster, 1967 vintage speedmaster, a bunch of midrange watches like Stowa and Sinn

 

[Cubo de Sangre]

And I'm sorry but equity in your primary residence doesn't count. It's not real. To access it, you either has to sell the primary residence or borrow against the equity. In either case, you don't have the property and the funds simultaneously. Either you buy a new property at whatever the future housing rates are or you pay back the equity with interest.

Conceptually that's no different than my 401(k). Value could skyrocket or plunge and I have no access to the value it represents until I cash out.

 

[panamaican]

If you show up to class, do your homework, pass your tests.. Pull a 3.0 in engineering, you're getting a job.

STEM is a catchphrase. People aren't talking about about biology, chemistry, etc. when they're saying STEM is good for getting jobs.

Yes, and when they say STEM is good for getting jobs without actually looking at the data for where those STEM jobs are they are simplifying a complex scenario. Because you get a 3.0 in engineering from a low tier school, you're not necessarily getting a job. It's the same fallacy that people threw around regarding JD's for years. The compensation for the employed can be great but all of the unemployed don't get accounted for in those conversations.

And if people aren't talking about biology, chemistry, etc. when they're saying STEM is good for getting jobs how is that any different from the claim that "Going to college is good for getting jobs"...yet we all know that just going to college and graduating isn't the panacea that it's alleged to be. If it's true for generic college degrees and we say so, we should be just as forthright about STEM degrees.

 

[VivaRevolution]

Is it pure ignorance? Denial? Poverty in America is really inexcusable. I laugh when people talk about how people are “keeping them down”. Newsflash: CEO making bank doesn’t stop you from making bank.

The thing is these people simply lack work ethic and are bad with money. They blow all their funds on trash and if they actually work they don’t want to put in the extra hours or acquire a side hustle. Once I finish my Masters I am planning on working 5 jobs. My only problem is there isn’t enough hours in the week.

And while you spend 12 years in school, paying out your nose for a piece of paper ,some of us already work for a living and joined a union, because we aren't shitty capitalists that don't understand leverage.

Oh, I got a piece of paper so you should pay me more, but only the smallest amount that an H1B visa will work for, because I am a shitty capitalist.

 

[JonnyRingo84]

My 2nd grade class had more than 30 kids. My middle school had almost 4000 kids and I spent 2 out of 3 years in portable classrooms. Stop living with the victim mentality

you remember the roster of your 2nd grade class? are you currently in 8th grade?

lots of excellent suburban schools have portable classrooms these days. no biggie. youre not a victim on that one.

 

[Cubo de Sangre]

The watches thing wasn’t a joke. My watch collection is worth like 25k. Rolex submariner, yachtmaster, 1967 vintage speedmaster, a bunch of midrange watches like Stowa and Sinn

I hear ya. If totaling my net worth I would surely include what's invested in firearms.

 

[Luminaire]

Got it, you have a problem with my smug response but his smugness in this thread is fine. That makes no sense but whatever.

Behind what? Behind what he thinks - which is what I typed "You are further behind than you think." In that he's not really at $250k.

And I'm sorry but equity in your primary residence doesn't count. It's not real. To access it, you either has to sell the primary residence or borrow against the equity. In either case, you don't have the property and the funds simultaneously. Either you buy a new property at whatever the future housing rates are or you pay back the equity with interest.

Clearly you have no idea how to calculate "net worth".

 

[sickc0d3r]

Conceptually that's no different than my 401(k). Value could skyrocket or plunge and I have no access to the value it represents until I cash out.

If you sell your home you still need to live somewhere, is the point about equity in a home I think.

 

[Scheme]

what if you went to a school that averaged 30 kids in their 2nd grade classrooms? the teacher spends time keeping a lid on behavior, rather than teaching. parents who also went to shit schools, and work 2-3 minimum wage jobs? would you have the work ethic to teach YOURSELF to read? i hope so, because students who cannot read by the time they leave elementary school, almost never graduate high school.

CERTAINLY i am not arguing that everyone who is poor, is a victim of circumstance, but its absolutely idiotic to suggest that anyone who is poor is simply lazy. if you truly believe whats in the OP, then youre out of touch, and naive.

Just going to school shouldn't be the only way a child gets a basic education. That is a completely flawed philosophy that stems from the parents being irresponsible and the child not being ambitious enough.

Books, the internet, workshops, etc. are all available for anyone who wants them. There are many different means to get educated, relying solely on an educational system that has proven to be failing is simply irresponsible by the parents.

I was a computer science TA for 4 years during my university days, and I was completely shocked at how many people came into a university level course with zero, absolutely zero, knowledge of programming.

Maybe it's the fact that people put so much trust into the educational system and few speak out against it, but I don't take that as an excuse if you are a parent in this day and age.

 

[VivaRevolution]

The 12.4% of people who couldn't get a job because they went into chemistry is ultimately their fault, they didn't spend enough time looking at the market and filling a need. If there is an over-saturation in the market then that will naturally lead to high unemployment. It's not the economy's fault, because the economy doesn't choose anything. It's simply a state of what is needed and what is not needed. If someone decides to go into something that is not needed, then that is their fault, for either ignorance of the job market or acceptance of an over-saturated market.

Work ethic is very important, as it often compensates for bad choices. But a combination of a work ethic and good choices is almost a guarantee of success. And luckily, both of those are mostly controllable as an individual.

I have worked as a software developer/engineer/architect for 5 years now. I constantly stay on top of the newest technologies, because if I was still stuck using Fortran in today's market it would be next to impossible to get a job. And it wouldn't be the markets fault for not having enough Fortran jobs out there, it would be my fault for lagging behind and making poor choices, despite however amazing my work ethic might have been.

Huh, and here I thought the problem, was that employers used to train their employees, and now they expect the government and you to pay for your training.

Aka externalizing costs.

 

[HatchetHarry]

You are correct, it's not that much. And if you're counting equity in your primary residence then you're even further behind than you think (I'll assume you were joking by mentioning a wristwatch collection...good one ).

My watch collection is worth like 25k so no it’s not a joke. I do feel behind but I will get there although kids might make it harder. Home equity is part of a networth by the way.