Winning Gear - Whats the secret 'ingredient'

[rskbreaker]

Personally, the evolution I'd like to see is 16oz size gloves that weight 8oz or so but are still 100% as protective. I think that would be a nice innovation.

I'd prefer the opposite. I'd prefer 16oz. in a 10oz. package. No gimmicks like sand or weights in the cuff, it would have to be a nice evenly distributed glove.

 

[Airdyne23]

I would like to see this too

After someone has perfectly copied the Winnings though LOL

BTW, I just got my pair of 16 oz Winnings today (birthday gift for myself) and the quality is everything everyone else has said.

Post some pics?

 

[Airdyne23]

I'd prefer the opposite. I'd prefer 16oz. in a 10oz. package. No gimmicks like sand or weights in the cuff, it would have to be a nice evenly distributed glove.

They already make those!

http://www.sherdog.net/forums/f67/gorilla-fight-gear-apeman-compact-hi-impact-training-gloves-1981155/

 

[GFG]

Do they manufacture their own proprietary foam?

i wouldn't think so it's just that manufacturers always BS you when trying to match up foams. Since foams are hidden behind a shell it's always hard to to keep manufacturers honest especially when your not at the factory cracking the wipe yourself. and it's not the factory owners fault it's the workers in the production line and their production managers they are the ones that make little tweeks to what you want done without asking anyone.

I've identified the foams that winnings puts in their headgear and gloves, and have sourced it out where my manufacturers have successfully sent counter samples of the foams however the issue now is will i get what i ask when i place my next few orders. and what foams to use in which product design.

 

[KounterPunch]

Even the"leather" covering it is special .
Soft , broken in , lighter , stretchy , cuddly even

No stink , no icky feeling when sweated in.

 

[wsharp23]

I wonder if other companies are using the same foam as winning, but because you pay such an enormous amount of money, you treat them better so you think they last longer and are more durable. I've never owned any and may never own any, but I could definitely see myself babying them if I ever had them. I mean I've read a few times that people have found foam that feels almost identical to winning but the glove didn't last as long, so people say "it's obviously a different foam." I don't think it's necessarily obvious.

 

[wsharp23]

I also just want to add that it's may be that winnings QC is top notch, so we don't get to see any bad apples.

 

[shihtzu]

I wonder if other companies are using the same foam as winning, but because you pay such an enormous amount of money, you treat them better so you think they last longer and are more durable. I've never owned any and may never own any, but I could definitely see myself babying them if I ever had them. I mean I've read a few times that people have found foam that feels almost identical to winning but the glove didn't last as long, so people say "it's obviously a different foam." I don't think it's necessarily obvious.

Yes and no. As for babying... that's true - at least in my case (moreover my current pair is white...). Though I have seen people who care less than if their Winning gloves were a pair of K-mart socks - the appearance was quite bad, but the performance was still excellent.
However I can responsibly assure anybody that the current foam in Winning PRO gloves can be destroyed probably only with a knife or throwing into the fire. Nothing else like water, extreme temperatures or so, not at all. And of course you cannnot destroy it with a normal use (saying "normal" I do not mean hitting the corner of the wall like some people do for the review).

Many people claimed they made/used the foam identical to Winning. But it is not true. Considering something that lasts for a year (and feels not the same through this period) being identical to the Winning's foam just because it is also layered and soft is a total nonsense. Personally I have tried several of the gloves some people say are similar to Winning. Imo the foam is incomparable.
Winning foam has an exceptional way and level of cushioning and overlasts any other foam whatever you use your gloves for. This is what makes this foam exceptional.

When I spent as a child some time in Japan in 92 our Japanese friends used to say "We do not buy new things because the old are broken, but because we had them for years and want some new things". This is very much about Winning gloves.

As for the quality control... Very much agree, it is perfect and very important, but it is normal with any good JPN company, they do not sell garbage. Though Winning gloves are first of all about superior materials and design, then craftmanship.

Winning gloves last forever. And using vaseline before every training helps them look like new.

 

[goldennboy]

i wouldn't think so it's just that manufacturers always BS you when trying to match up foams. Since foams are hidden behind a shell it's always hard to to keep manufacturers honest especially when your not at the factory cracking the wipe yourself. and it's not the factory owners fault it's the workers in the production line and their production managers they are the ones that make little tweeks to what you want done without asking anyone.

I've identified the foams that winnings puts in their headgear and gloves, and have sourced it out where my manufacturers have successfully sent counter samples of the foams however the issue now is will i get what i ask when i place my next few orders. and what foams to use in which product design.

You said that the winnings don't have a layer of latex like say for example the reyes. yet, they still are more comfortable and softer..

So, what is the purpose for the latex layer then?

 

[shihtzu]

You said that the winnings don't have a layer of latex like say for example the reyes. yet, they still are more comfortable and softer..

So, what is the purpose for the latex layer then?

That's a witty question Why adding latex to something that is perfect as it is? Also why making it thicker if it is already thick enough for any huge heavyweight?

 

[goldennboy]

That's a witty question Why adding latex to something that is perfect as it is? Also why making it thicker if it is already thick enough for any huge heavyweight?

I was referring to the gloves that already do have the latex layer like reyes. why don't they remove the layer and have a glove that's times better?

 

[shihtzu]

I was referring to the gloves that already do have the latex layer like reyes. why don't they remove the layer and have a glove that's times better?

In case of Reyes that would mean removing everything - their whole padding is latex

 

[GFG]

You said that the winnings don't have a layer of latex like say for example the reyes. yet, they still are more comfortable and softer..

So, what is the purpose for the latex layer then?

Latex comes in crap and good qualities look at foam mattresses shitty latex foam mattresses have a live span of 3-5years before having to flip or chuck it, while a good latex foam mattress has a life span at least 25 years.

i would assume winning mostly uses synthetic foams cause they are easily available in japan, while trying to get the same quality in latex might be harder/more expensive to source but i could be wrong. there is nothing wrong with good quality laytex its a natural product that has a very long life span.

when you put a Top Grade latex up against a synthetic foam the laytex always wins out for comfort, and durability.

funny i get my gear made in Pakistan but alot of the materials i use in my gear are imported from other countries like Korea, japan,Taiwan etc. it's funny how that works if you want quality that the average joe will never appreciate.

even a basic injection mold on a boxing glove can vary from crap quality $0.75 up to $3 depending on the quality you want that is a 400% increase in the cost. Just for 1 part of a glove.

When i started gorilla in 2005 i didn't know the difference when it came to good quality gear and crap, i just trained a hell of alot back then and like 90% of people out there doing muay thai, boxing, mma, jits etc. i didn't know shit about gear i just knew what i liked and didn't like. That is the same thing i see when i visit gym most coaches don't really know the difference between a good glove and a crappy glove they just know what they like as a personal preferance. However in the last 6 years doing gorilla my knowledge has really evolved i now pick apart every little detail on a product. i felt like i was technical in my jits and stand up now i can say im very technical when it comes to my gear.

If i was cleto i wouldn't change from laytex to a synthetic foam like winning. What they are doing obviously works for them and their client base. if they really wanted a more protective glove they would just have to play with the layers of foam they are using in their 2" thick gloves, maybe sneak in a denser layer.

Mike @ Gorilla

 

[shihtzu]

Several things I do not much understand...
Top natural latex x synthetic foam = latex wins. What do you base it on? It is almost impossible to destroy Winning padding not only with the constant impact but even with water while latex is damaged by water easily and most importantly if it is a rather soft latex (like in Reyes gloves) using the gloves on a bag affects the padding a lot, again unlike Winning padding.
Winning are easily the most comfortable gloves, nobody has ever claimed they are not and they are the softest to be hit with. So I still cannot find a single reason for adding latex to the Winning padding. Actually you did not responded to it in other way than in general and with respect a bit pointless phrases.

In your previous posts you mentioned "in all top gloves latex is used". What top gloves? Grant and Reyes? Reyes use it for decades, Grant copied Reyes. Nothing more, nothing less.

As for Cleto and their extra padded gloves (or their standard gloves, btw extra padded have exactly the same padding as their standard gloves, just more of it over knuckles and a bit disproportioned in general)... Dude, do you really think the fact they are selling inconsistently padded gloves is because the padding is so awesome? I used to have a pair of extra padded 16 oz. One glove was below 15 oz. and the padding thickness was almost like in standard gloves and it was soft, the other was close to 18 oz., the padding was thick and denser than in the 1st glove. Great quality, isn't it? Btw my 14 oz. Winning are 14.01 oz. left / 14.06 oz. right glove. Reyes do not change their padding for the very simple reason - the latex padding is not so bad, the process of manufacturing is accustomed for years (as you know better than I do filling the gloves with latex is not quite the same process of manufacturing as using a foam of a particular and always the same shape) and so are accustomed the clients - they like it as it is (I do not much). This does not mean at all the natural latex is the best padding or close to it.
It just means nobody would kill the goose that lays the golden eggs. Who would do changes to the business that works so great?

 

[GFG]

Several things I do not much understand...
Top natural latex x synthetic foam = latex wins. What do you base it on?

It's based on the only thing I can count on experience also on research articles i found on the subject. However, I put more weight on the experience then some articles i find. Whenever I compare comparing synthetic poly foams or synthetic latex foams/rubber that are made to substitute natural latex, latex is always better. Or perform better especially in the application as a sparring glove.

here are 2 references from a article i read that sums it up nicely

1. Physical testing results indicate that quality latex foam rubber is capable of exceeding the physical performance of flexible polyurethane foam, however the density and cost of latex foam rubber is also much higher.

• The use of filler materials in latex foam rubber does not improve most physical performance attributes.

the more filler a latex foam has the more synthetic and cheaper it becomes.

It is almost impossible to destroy Winning padding not only with the constant impact but even with water while latex is damaged by water easily and most importantly if it is a rather soft latex (like in Reyes gloves) using the gloves on a bag affects the padding a lot, again unlike Winning padding.

In the ms-600 winning glove they use 3 layers of foam i would argue the fact that it's the combination of the 3 layers that gives winning it's durability especially on the bag. i'll have to test it myself to confirm.

As for water damage to latex this is the first i've heard of it. i know you can use water to clean latex foam mattresses, if water would damage latex im sure they would not suggest this.

Winning are easily the most comfortable gloves, nobody has ever claimed they are not and they are the softest to be hit with. So I still cannot find a single reason for adding latex to the Winning padding. Actually you did not responded to it in other way than in general and with respect a bit pointless phrases.

That would be personal preference on the style and cut of the glove I would argue that the Cleto Reyes padding itself is more comfortable than the padding in the winning gloves. As for the glove design and cut i prefer the winning gloves over the Cleto Reyes gloves for my long hands but that is only my personal preference and really shouldn't mean much to others, unless they had the same preference for a glove as I do. As for my respond being pointless and general maybe it is but without giving out specific details on how the gloves are constructed that is all i can do, plus I seem to have gotten off track into quality and sourcing sorry about that.

In your previous posts you mentioned "in all top gloves latex is used". What top gloves? Grant and Reyes? Reyes use it for decades, Grant copied Reyes. Nothing more, nothing less.

Bayfill padding in top ten gloves = latex rubber foam mold
Ringside IMF tech gloves = latex rubber foam mold
Cleto Reys = latex foam sheets
Rival = in their sparring gloves i've seen latex foam sheet

As for Cleto and their extra padded gloves (or their standard gloves, btw extra padded have exactly the same padding as their standard gloves, just more of it over knuckles and a bit disproportioned in general)... Dude, do you really think the fact they are selling inconsistently padded gloves is because the padding is so awesome? I used to have a pair of extra padded 16 oz. One glove was below 15 oz. and the padding thickness was almost like in standard gloves and it was soft, the other was close to 18 oz., the padding was thick and denser than in the 1st glove. Great quality, isn't it? Btw my 14 oz. Winning are 14.01 oz. left / 14.06 oz. right glove. Reyes do not change their padding for the very simple reason - the latex padding is not so bad, the process of manufacturing is accustomed for years (as you know better than I do filling the gloves with latex is not quite the same process of manufacturing as using a foam of a particular and always the same shape) and so are accustomed the clients - they like it as it is (I do not much). This does not mean at all the natural latex is the best padding or close to it.
It just means nobody would kill the goose that lays the golden eggs. Who would do changes to the business that works so great?

I don't know I've never used their 2" extra padded gloves if they are off by so much i'm sure it was human error or they should look into better quality control. All I know is that i know what winning uses in their gloves and headgear that i've opened up, and i will use what i like and discard the rest in my own gear. I think our first batch of kong gloves had pretty crazy padding, but I'm just going to build on that.

the reasons i back latex over synthetic foams is that it's a natural product made from the sap from the rubber tree, it's hypoallergenic and is resistant to bacteria. which is good.

 

[ClampXVII]

I love how technical your posts are Mike. I'm a big fan of gfg.

 

[GFG]

thanks clamp, i just have to learn to proofread my posts before posting them. sometimes my mind gets to far ahead of my fingers.

 

[shihtzu]

It's based on the only thing i can count on experience also on research article i found on the subject. Whenever i compare comparing synthetic poly foams or syntetic laytex foams/rubber that are made to substitute natural latex, latex is always better. or perform better especially in the application as a sparring glove.

here are 2 references from a article i read that sums it up nicely

1. Physical testing results indicate that quality latex foam rubber is capable of exceeding the physical performance of flexible polyurethane foam, however the density and cost of latex foam rubber is also much higher.

• The use of filler materials in latex foam rubber does not improve most physical performance attributes.

the more filler a latex foam has the more synthetic and cheaper it becomes.

Well, with respect this http://www.pfa.org/intouch/new_pdf/lr_IntouchV.8.pdf is not much a research article. Just a 12 years old short article from Polyreuthan Foam Association. Do you think it is a valid argument to claim ALL synthetic foams are worse than latex? Would not say so.

Btw do you really believe in what you are saying?

i would assume winning mostly uses synthetic foams cause they are easily available in japan, while trying to get the same quality in latex might be harder/more expensive to source but i could be wrong

Winning are so greed so they save (as you claim) on materials the amount equal to 5-10 minutes salary of the JPN emloyee? Really?

In the ms-600 winning glove they use 3 layers of foam i would argue the fact that it's the combination of the 3 layers that gives winning it's durability especially on the bag. i'll have to test it myself to confirm.

I do not claim the particular number of layers is what makes it durable. The only thing I claim (though it is maybe not enough "proved by science" unlike Hayabusa Tokushu ). The only thing I do claim is the durability itself. Based on the use of gloves. Not on mattresses, pillows, condoms or sexy clothes, but on Winning gloves used daily by myself and most importantly by many pro. This is the only real proof of durability of the padding in case of boxing gloves imo.

as for water damage to laytex this is the first i've heard of it. i know you can use water to clean latex foam mattresses, if water would damage latex im sure they would not suggest this.

Sorry, admit my mistake. Water does not cause much damage, but some oils do. However if latex absorbs water it never fully dries then.

That would be personal preference on the style and cut of the glove i would argue that the cleto reyes padding itself is more comfortable then the padding in the winning gloves. As for the glove design and cut i perfer the winning gloves over the cleto reyes gloves for my long hands but that is only my personal preference and really shouldn't mean much to others, unless they had the same preference for a glove as i do. As for my respond being pointless and general maybe it is but without giving out specific details on how the gloves are constructed that is all i can do, plus i seem to have gotten off track into quality and sourcing sorry about that.

Yes and no. Winning padding is way softer than Reyes, for this reason Winning fit better. Though many people prefer Reyes... why not in the end.

padding in top ten gloves = laytex rubber foam mold
Ringside IMF tech gloves = laytex rubber foam mold
Cleto Reys = laytex foam sheets
Rival = in their sparring gloves i've seen laytex foam sheet

Dude, bayfill is polyreuthane, it's a shame you do not know this. Even I have mentioned it here several times, but nobody reads my posts lol
http://www.bayermaterialsciencenaft...m=EB7C4AFE-91DF-50A0-4BF8AEF5B03A8835&o_num=5

Do not know anything about Ringsde foam material, however would hardly call them top gloves They are good though.
Reyes I've already mentioned, the same in case of Grant.
Do not know anything about Rival sparring gloves foam beside I do not like them.

I don't know i never used their 2" extra padded gloves if they are off by so much i'm sure it was human error or they should look into better quality control.

They are the same as the standard Reyes, just claim to have more padding over knuckles (one of the gloves did not) and are quite disproportioned. But many Reyes gloves are disproportioned. Very often the right glove is different from the left one. They simply cut, fill somehow them and than sew the gloves in Reyes. Nothing like putting all the materials before it on the accurate scale like they do in Winning. This is not a lack of quality control, but the lack of professionalism in the manufacturing process.

i know is that i know what winning uses in there gloves and headgear that i've opened up and i will use what i like and discard the rest in my own gear. I think our first batch of kong gloves had pretty crazy padding but i'm just going to build on that.

I did not dissect my Winning gear. I just use it. This is what I know.
Anyway, good luck in trying! Many people claimed this, nobody have succeded yet. Honestly I would be very glad if you succeed, you are a nice guy.

reasons i back latex over synthetic foams is that it's a natural product made from the sap from the rubber tree, it's hypoallergenic and is resistant to bacteria. which is good.

A good joke, mate. "Latex is hypoallergenic" :icon_lol:

Btw latex itself is not resistant to bacteria, the treament done to it helps latex to be quite resistant.


Beside this all you still haven't explained what valuable addition will latex bring if added to the Winning foam.
Basicallly you say latex is better than any synthetic. Why do you bother copying Winning synthetic foam then?
Ask Manny or Floyd why do they buy Winning gear. Performance is the reason. Neither Reyes, nor Grant (most probably 2 the very best latex brands) perform as well as "the cheaper Winning synthetic".

 

[GFG]

Well, with respect this http://www.pfa.org/intouch/new_pdf/lr_IntouchV.8.pdf is not much a research article. Just a 12 years old short article from Polyreuthan Foam Association. Do you think it is a valid argument to claim ALL synthetic foams are worse than latex? Would not say so.

I think i quoted that article a few times actually lol also i wonder if the article might be baised towards poly foams i haven't red it in full just glanced at it.

Btw do you really believe in what you are saying? Winning are so greed so they save (as you claim) on materials the amount equal to 5-10 minutes salary of the JPN emloyee? Really?

I don't know, i don't know what they are up to, but i'm sure they are paying for the highest quality of poly,synthetic latex, eva foams they can get their hands on.

I do not claim the particular number of layers is what makes it durable. The only thing I claim (though it is maybe not enough "proved by science" unlike Hayabusa Tokushu ). The only thing I do claim is the durability itself. Based on the use of gloves. Not on mattresses, pillows, condoms or sexy clothes, but on Winning gloves used daily by myself and most importantly by many pro. This is the only real proof of durability of the padding in case of boxing gloves imo.

I'm sure they are durable products, but i would have to test the durability for myself to know for sure the 2 weeks i used a pair of winnings was not long enough.

Sorry, admit my mistake. Water does not cause much damage, but some oils do. However if latex absorbs water it never fully dries then.

i think if any moisture gets into the foams it will never fully dry as no air flow can get to it regardless if its a natural latex or a synthetic foams.

Yes and no. Winning padding is way softer than Reyes, for this reason Winning fit better. Though many people prefer Reyes... why not in the end.

the Ms-600 gloves i seen were denser then the cleto resyes gloves so i can only say what i seen personally.

Dude, bayfill is polyreuthane, it's a shame you do not know this. Even I have mentioned it here several times, but nobody reads my posts lol
http://www.bayermaterialsciencenaft...m=EB7C4AFE-91DF-50A0-4BF8AEF5B03A8835&o_num=5

Hmm weird your post reminded me that i had a top ten headgaurd i wanted to rip open. OK I just cut it open and it's too hard to compare i know this headgear the cross section of the foam it does look different from latex molds. The bubbles looked more compressed and it looks like there are shiny particles in it reflecting more light. Also just took a quick hammer impact test to it and within 30 impacts the foam did soften up but it performed alot better then alot of injection molds i put this test to. However i swore the bayfill gloves had a different foam then this headgear. I swore it was latex when i ripped it open. I guess i'll have to grab another glove to satisfy my curiosity.

Do not know anything about Rival sparring gloves foam beside I do not like them.

Yeah they use alot of different combinations of high and low density foams to make their molds. Like i said gear is all about personal preference. some people like winning, some people hate it.

I did not dissect my Winning gear. I just use it. This is what I know.
Anyway, good luck in trying! Many people claimed this, nobody have succeed yet. Honestly I would be very glad if you succeed, you are a nice guy.

Yeah i normally do both test it out for a few weeks then cut it open.

Not trying to make a winning mold just trying to come out with my own blends that i'm satisfied with. Once i do that the rest should just fall into place. or so i hope.

A good joke, mate. "Latex is hypoallergenic" :icon_lol:

Btw latex itself is not resistant to bacteria, the treatment done to it helps latex to be quite resistant.

I was just quoting some article on latex foams that i found which just reinforced what i had read in the past.

Beside this all you still haven't explained what valuable addition will latex bring if added to the Winning foam.

I still think a high quality latex will out perform the same high quality synthetic foam. that top ten headgear surprised me on the impact test but more R&D would have to go into looking into why it surprised me before i can make a decision on it.

Basicallly you say latex is better than any synthetic. Why do you bother copying Winning synthetic foam then?

More for curiosities sake i just want to know what everyone is doing and i'm still going to use latex where i think it's needed.

goal is to have 3-4 types of padding. i looked at how winning did their gloves but i'm going to do something different. i think of it as a winning glove of steroids weather it needs it or not, as i want to make sure everything in our kong line is just outrageous when it comes to protection. SO i can actually say i have the most protective gloves on the market and not be bullshitting. weather or not people like it i just want to have it in my line up.

Ask Manny or Floyd why do they buy Winning gear. Performance is the reason. Neither Reyes, nor Grant (most probably 2 the very best latex brands) perform as well as "the cheaper Winning synthetic".

Isn't Floyd the captain of team grant? that's what it says on grants facebook page somewhere. i'm sure behind the scenes there is money changing hands. i know when i talked to PRO MMA fighter if he needed more gear at that time he said he'd love to but he had a fairtex sponsor right then and he couldn't take the chance of beening seen/photo'd/video'd not using their gear, as he didn't want to take a chance of loosing that money or contract.

 

[GFG]

forgot to mention shihtzu "tag your it"