Karate throws

[Hotora86]

You are contradicting yourself here. If a move is hard to do in sparring than it is hard to learn. It seems to me if someone can't land a hip throw in a sparring context than they really don't know how to do the move.

A lot of these karate grappling videos have the same feel as danthewolfman videos- the people in them are not experts and they have a lot of gaps in their knowledge. Plus the techniques they show are low percentage.

I don't see that contradiction. Hip throws are not hard to learn in general. When it comes to sparring, they are easy to do in Judo sparring - because strikes are not allowed and the opponent is really close to you. They are hard to do in Karate sparring - because strikes and kicks are allowed and the opponent maintains distance.

Japanese Karateka that I've seen have no issue with doing hip throws - possibly because Judo is in the school curriculum and everybody knows the basics anyway. European Karate instructors like to cross-train Judo to fill the gaps - and that's great. Will they be using it in competition? No. Should they still learn it for self-defense? Yes.

 

[Thycidides]

hip

I don't see that contradiction. Hip throws are not hard to learn in general. When it comes to sparring, they are easy to do in Judo sparring - because strikes are not allowed and the opponent is really close to you. They are hard to do in Karate sparring - because strikes and kicks are allowed and the opponent maintains distance.

Japanese Karateka that I've seen have no issue with doing hip throws - possibly because Judo is in the school curriculum and everybody knows the basics anyway. European Karate instructors like to cross-train Judo to fill the gaps - and that's great. Will they be using it in competition? No. Should they still learn it for self-defense? Yes.

How familiar are you with judo or other grappling competitions ? In my experience Hip throws are actually pretty hard to do in randori for white belts and other lower ranks, and doing so while remaining upright is even harder for them . The problem is even worse in white belt BJJ tournaments. It takes years to develop a good throw. Hell ive been doing judo for 7 years an I have a hard time doing hip throw in randori to people with less experience than I.

There are a couple reasons for this, one is because a hip throw requires total commitment and good balance but also because getting tossed on the ground hurts so a lot of time also has to be spent break falling and rolling.


Also if someone can't land a throw while being punched in a sparring context how they are supposed to do so in a self defense situation? It seems to me if that is the goal than more time than once a month needs to be spend on hip throwing.

But anyway my main point is that these videos are kind of low quality. If there are karataka out there with better judo and grappling credential that have won under both rule sets i would have preferred to see them in action.

 

[Thycidides]

WKF rules does not allow hip (or above) throw. They are judged as "unsafe". Other rules (such as Enshin sabaki rules) allows them just fine. As for doing hip throws and remaining upright -there are examples, but the fighters in rulesets allowing it are all well trained, and then we get back to the point abernethy made about how you have to fully commit to throw a skilled guy who knows throws and expects them. And if the rules penalize falling down after doing a throw, or rewards staying on your feet afterward.



The freestyle rules does not penalize falling down when doing a throw. Enshin rewards staying on your feet and "finish off" the opponent with a strike.

Edit. I should point out that this is japanese freestyle karate -which is basically knockdown (kyokushin, enshin, ashihara etc etc karate) with a lot of throws and takedown. It has no connection with the bad joke known as american freestyle karate.

this looks like a much better ruleset and these guys look way better at grappling than the people in previous videos.

I really want to compete in this. How would I go about doing that in the usa?

 

[Hotora86]

How familiar are you with judo or other grappling competitions ? In my experience Hip throws are actually pretty hard to do in randori for white belts and other lower ranks, and doing so while remaining upright is even harder for them . The problem is even worse in white belt BJJ tournaments. It takes years to develop a good throw. Hell ive been doing judo for 7 years an I have a hard time doing hip throw in randori to people with less experience than I.

There are a couple reasons for this, one is because a hip throw requires total commitment and good balance but also because getting tossed on the ground hurts so a lot of time also has to be spent break falling and rolling.

Also if someone can't land a throw while being punched in a sparring context how they are supposed to do so in a self defense situation?

But anyway my main point is that these videos are kind of low quality. If there are karataka out there with better judo and grappling credential that have won under both rule sets id would have preferred to see them in action.

I did Judo for a while and since I'm slim and tall I got hip tossed by short stocky guys a lot. Due to my long legs I'd rely mostly on Ashi-waza (which also worked fine in Karate sparring). I'm not experienced enough to argue with you. But then let me pose a counter-question - if hip throws are that hard and even experienced Judoka can't often execute them on lower ranks - why do they still train them?

As for Karateka with grappling credentials demonstrating throws, here's one you can always count on. No hip toss tho, sorry.

 

[shinkyoku]

Also if someone can't land a throw while being punched in a sparring context how they are supposed to do so in a self defense situation? It seems to me if that is the goal than more time than once a month needs to be spend on hip throwing.

But anyway my main point is that these videos are kind of low quality. If there are karataka out there with better judo and grappling credential that have won under both rule sets i would have preferred to see them in action.

Karateka is, can and will never be as good at grappling and throwing as a specialist grappler/thrower. Karate is primarily punches and kicks. Throws are a secondary skillset and grappling and pins are below that. This is especially true for karate systems that does not allow any grappling or throws in competitions. What else can you expect? The point of abernethys videos is to encourage training in those neglected skillsets, and finding ways to get sparring experience with what is otherwise dusty formalized techniques. If the level of skill had been enough to defeat specialist, there would have been no reson to improve.

 

[Hotora86]

Gonna add some oil to the flame with this video:



Grapplers gonna have a field day with this.

 

[Big Nasty Edison]

I'm a TMA fan and defender but personally I disagree with all the people who point out kata portions and try to paint them as grappling or throws. 90% or the examples of this are REALLY stretching it and many look nothing like the throw.

So that means it's one of two things. First being it's not really a throw but a modern desire to find something not there. Second option is they are "throwing " movements but the kata shows them so outlandish that it's never gonna actually teach anyone to proper do the throw.

I'm not saying the techniques aren't in the art, just that I don't agree with the kata parts.

 

[Thycidides]

But then let me pose a counter-question - if hip throws are that hard and even experienced Judoka can't often execute them on lower ranks - why do they still train them?
]

Because they are fun and a key way to win the game. Its good exercise too. I find throwing someone more satisfying than rolling around on the ground in BJJ though I like that too. Also once you get good at a throw and can throw in randori you feel like a badass and accomplished. I do anyway.

I don't really care about self defense application and find that is kind of a marketing gimmick.

that's funny you post a kata video- last night my coach had me practice judo kata instead of sparring in judo class. I would have preferred to do randori but considering I saw someone get hurt last night its just as well I did kata. I would do even more kata if I didn't have any training partners and had to train in my garage instead of on soft mats.

What's really funny is that judo kata has strikes too but you don't see me posting videos about how awesome it is and how many judo players cross train striking like Ronda Rousy.

 

[CFGroup]

WKF rules does not allow hip (or above) throw. They are judged as "unsafe". Other rules (such as Enshin sabaki rules) allows them just fine. As for doing hip throws and remaining upright -there are examples, but the fighters in rulesets allowing it are all well trained, and then we get back to the point abernethy made about how you have to fully commit to throw a skilled guy who knows throws and expects them. And if the rules penalize falling down after doing a throw, or rewards staying on your feet afterward.



The freestyle rules does not penalize falling down when doing a throw. Enshin rewards staying on your feet and "finish off" the opponent with a strike.

Edit. I should point out that this is japanese freestyle karate -which is basically knockdown (kyokushin, enshin, ashihara etc etc karate) with a lot of throws and takedown. It has no connection with the bad joke known as american freestyle karate.

Me likest 1:43!

Heh Heh why does striking/throw combo's like that make me giddy?

Grumble, grumble, just old enough to have had to compete throwing and striking as separate sports cause there's no real Japanese martial arts at that level in a large federation in the U.S.

Only critique is they gotta punch to the face!

 

[CFGroup]

I'm a TMA fan and defender but personally I disagree with all the people who point out kata portions and try to paint them as grappling or throws. 90% or the examples of this are REALLY stretching it and many look nothing like the throw.

So that means it's one of two things. First being it's not really a throw but a modern desire to find something not there. Second option is they are "throwing " movements but the kata shows them so outlandish that it's never gonna actually teach anyone to proper do the throw.

I'm not saying the techniques aren't in the art, just that I don't agree with the kata parts.

Just a quickie, while studying with a training partner who stationed in Okinawa for years who trained in traditional GoJu. The theory is anytime you get close enough to trap a leg and take Kuzushi or balance that can be turned into a throw. Technically tripping someone is a "throw" so in FC strike and throw sparring we did regularly we'd trap a forward leg so you can't step back to regain your balance and punch to the face that can turn into an overgrip in fluid motion.

From my experience Kata is more symbolic of the possibilities at high level execution. You should be able to subconsciously without pause execute 20 techniques adjusting to the circumstances...Just the way I was taught and see it...

 

[Hotora86]

Because they are fun and a key way to win the game. Its good exercise too. I find throwing someone more satisfying than rolling around on the ground in BJJ though I like that too. Also once you get good at a throw and can throw in randori you feel like a badass and accomplished. I do anyway.

I don't really care about self defense application and find that is kind of a marketing gimmick.

that's funny you post a kata video- last night my coach had me practice judo kata instead of sparring in judo class. I would have preferred to do randori but considering I saw someone get hurt last night its just as well I did kata. I would do even more kata if I didn't have any training partners and had to train in my garage instead of on soft mats.

What's really funny is that judo kata has strikes too but you don't see me posting videos about how awesome it is and how many judo players cross train striking like Ronda Rousy.

I would not hold it against you if you posted a thread about Judo kata having strikes - in fact, that's exactly the point I was trying to make. Judo is a grappling art and strikes are banned in competition BUT Judo kata include strikes to remind Judoka that you can't win every fight with throws (and you should set them up with strikes in a self-defense context!). Similarly, Karate is a striking art BUT Karate kata include takedowns and standup grappling to remind Karateka that you can't win every fight with strikes (and should be able to perform or defend takedowns).

The point is to avoid creating one-dimensional fighters who are excellent at one aspect of fighting but completely clueless at everything else. For example: WTF TKD guys get tons of shit for their "only kicks" competition format - so why would you criticize them for training punches (and throws) during regular training, outside of competition?

 

[Hotora86]

Me likest 1:43!

Heh Heh why does striking/throw combo's like that make me giddy?

Grumble, grumble, just old enough to have had to compete throwing and striking as separate sports cause there's no real Japanese martial arts at that level in a large federation in the U.S.

Only critique is they gotta punch to the face!

Have you tried Wado Ryu?
http://www.usawadoryu.com/
http://www.wado-ryu-karate.com/WadoSchools.jpg
http://www.useasternwado.com/DojoDirectoryHome.htm

Not taking responsibility for the above orgs but Wado SHOULD be like a blend of Shotokan and Japanese Jujitsu.

 

[Hotora86]

Just a quickie, while studying with a training partner who stationed in Okinawa for years who trained in traditional GoJu. The theory is anytime you get close enough to trap a leg and take Kuzushi or balance that can be turned into a throw. Technically tripping someone is a "throw" so in FC strike and throw sparring we did regularly we'd trap a forward leg so you can't step back to regain your balance and punch to the face that can turn into an overgrip in fluid motion.

Indeed. Note the amount of trips and throws in the below clip. Even a hip throw!

 

[CFGroup]

Indeed. Note the amount of trips and throws in the below clip. Even a hip throw!

Since Dave was taught traditional GoJu he never kicked above the waste so in that clip you can see the sport influence from other federations vs the older Sensei with the rigid short range power projection. The thing that I had to get use to is the bone hardening training like that rock slamming in the clip. Traditional training conditions the feet, shins forarms and hands so sparring a guy like that is like parring a 2x6.

There was a cool part around 15 seconds in with those paired drills. That develops into a light or heavy non padded sparring exercises where the pair kicks, punches grapples and throws at the same time blocking and neutralizing at close range. Given that we trained after hrs at the Judo Dojo we threw basic NeWaza in for fun. That's where the skill of the ability to instantly execute 20 techniques in any random order develops. plus training striking and standing grappling that way was a great in supplement years of long range TKD/KB instinct and to keep my feet low and in close quarters.

 

[Thycidides]

The point is to avoid creating one-dimensional fighters who are excellent at one aspect of fighting but completely clueless at everything else. For example: WTF TKD guys get tons of shit for their "only kicks" competition format - so why would you criticize them for training punches (and throws) during regular training, outside of competition?

If the goal is to produce well rounded fighters than the rules should allow and score more well-rounded techniques.

Othwise you end up with people that have drilled a dozen different moves but can't do any of them in a stress scenari o

 

[MadSquabbles500]

Exactly the point made by Iain. When fighting someone who expects you to throw (ex. in competition) you need to commit fully. Fighting for self-defense you should try to remain standing.

Why do you say this? What is the difference as long as you end up on top?

 

[shinkyoku]

Why do you say this? What is the difference as long as you end up on top?

seriously?
https://iainabernethy.co.uk/content/ground-fighting-against-knife-attack
http://www.wimsblog.com/2015/03/ground-fighting-against-a-knife-attack/
1-on-1 no weapons, groundfighting is awesome. otherwise? not so much.

 

[Thycidides]

seriously?
https://iainabernethy.co.uk/content/ground-fighting-against-knife-attack
http://www.wimsblog.com/2015/03/ground-fighting-against-a-knife-attack/
1-on-1 no weapons, groundfighting is awesome. otherwise? not so much.

So you think Ian Abernathy would have more success throwing a
knife attacker than olympic medalist Teddy Rinner? Lol

By the way if you read about stabbings in newspaper most of the time the assailant gets tackled and controlled on the ground. There was a famous incident on a train in France where that happened.

 

[CFGroup]

So you think Ian Abernathy would have more success throwing a
knife attacker than olympic medalist Teddy Rinner? Lol

By the way if you read about stabbings in newspaper most of the time the assailant gets tackled and controlled on the ground. There was a famous incident on a train in France where that happened.

That's cherry picking the data to conform to your belief.

A lot of knife ADW's rolling around on the ground where you're from?

LOL!

Just because there's a "famous incident" doesn't mean that's the rule.

You would actually have to study the topic and train with people who are in the lines of work where ADW's are common and processed.

 

[MarcoW]

seriously?
https://iainabernethy.co.uk/content/ground-fighting-against-knife-attack
http://www.wimsblog.com/2015/03/ground-fighting-against-a-knife-attack/
1-on-1 no weapons, groundfighting is awesome. otherwise? not so much.

I disagree. If you are on top and the opponent has a knife is better than both standing and they have a knife. It is easier to control and put your weight on the knife arm from on top. Much easier to catch the knife arm as well.

The video is a bad example.
The guy in the white shirt is an opponent as well that the fighter does not consider, he could have stabbed the standing fighter in the back at any time, he didn't need to wait until it went to the ground.

The more important message from that video is that you need to be aware of your surroundings at all times and know where the attacks could be coming from.