Karate throws

[Hotora86]

If the goal is to produce well rounded fighters than the rules should allow and score more well-rounded techniques.

Othwise you end up with people that have drilled a dozen different moves but can't do any of them in a stress scenari o

I totally agree. The problem is - the Karate masters of old who created the Kata (which include takedowns and stadup grappling) had NO IDEA we'd end up with modern day rule sets. I'm all for MMA rules in Karate but I can't convince everybody. At least Kudo and Shidokan got it right(-ish).

 

[shinkyoku]

So you think Ian Abernathy would have more success throwing a
knife attacker than olympic medalist Teddy Rinner? Lol

Of course a olympian medalist would have a edge throwing anyone. That is a stupid argument But we cannot all be olympic medalists.
1-on-1 grappling rules. but if there is a weapon, the hard rule is to stay out of range or get a better weapon yourself. But the example in the vid, with the second guy jumping in and stabbing away, is just the extreme. Any time the opponent have a friend nearby who is willing to put a boot in to aid his (or her) friend, you will be at a huge disadvantage if you are on the ground. On your feet you can always move away. And the point of SD is not to ko, choke or armbar the opponent into submission, it is to get away with your skin intact. If that means legging it at the first opportunity, then that is the way to go.

By the way if you read about stabbings in newspaper most of the time the assailant gets tackled and controlled on the ground. There was a famous incident on a train in France where that happened.

And how many not so famous incidents have there been when guys have been stabbed in grappling range because they didnt know the guy was carrying? Or because they THOUGHT they could catch the knifehand?
If there is a noticeable number of knifewielders grappled to the ground reportedin newspapers, and I have not noticed this. how many of them was caught by suprise from behind when outnumbered?

 

[shinkyoku]

I disagree. If you are on top and the opponent has a knife is better than both standing and they have a knife. It is easier to control and put your weight on the knife arm from on top. Much easier to catch the knife arm as well.

You serously want to grapple with a soneone weilding a knife? that is truly stupid. There is no way to do that without taking a stab or two. What you want is to be a mini machida. elusive and out of range.
The point of remaing standing is to be able to get away FAST. You do not want to stay in that range, you do not want to GET into that range, but if you get there, throw the guy, put a boot in to slow him down getting up, run away to feed your dog or whatever reason you have to not go to hospital from stupid machismo.

The video is a bad example.
The guy in the white shirt is an opponent as well that the fighter does not consider, he could have stabbed the standing fighter in the back at any time, he didn't need to wait until it went to the ground.

Yet he did wait, because when the fight went to the ground, the stabber was free to do whatever he wanted without any risk whatsoever. Grappling is amazing 1-on-1 without weapon, but if you are not VERY sure of those two factors, then it turns into a bad idea. And if it is 1-on-1 without weapons, it is probalby not really self-defense but just a "friendly" fight.

 

[CFGroup]

. And if it is 1-on-1 without weapons, it is probalby not really self-defense but just a "friendly" fight.

Back in my old security job we call those glorified school yard scuffles with at will participants.

If someone really went after a vic and caused damage that would get reported and BOLO'd for the perp.

But most of the shit Sherdoger's think about or have any "hypothetical" experience with are the scuffles....

 

[MadSquabbles500]

seriously?
https://iainabernethy.co.uk/content/ground-fighting-against-knife-attack
http://www.wimsblog.com/2015/03/ground-fighting-against-a-knife-attack/
1-on-1 no weapons, groundfighting is awesome. otherwise? not so much.

Yeh, how will you osoto gari, or harai goshi someone with a shiv?

Saying you cannot ground fight when shiv is involved is pointless because if you want to take them down, you still need to somehow clear the shiv hand first before you enter your throw. So if you are on the ground, wouldnt be even easier to restrain the shiv hand anyways?

 

[shinkyoku]

Yeh, how will you osoto gari, or harai goshi someone with a shiv?

Saying you cannot ground fight when shiv is involved is pointless because if you want to take them down, you still need to somehow clear the shiv hand first before you enter your throw. So if you are on the ground, wouldnt be even easier to restrain the shiv hand anyways?

missing the point.
The idea is that you do not want to be in grappling range at all in SD. Never. But since you cannot always get what you want, you need to be able to fight in grappling range when the fecal matter hits the rotating air transporting device in the least desireable way -as it often do. But when you do grapple with someone trying to stab you, you want to be there as short a time as possible. Get away from the blade is the mantra. Dont leave openings for the opponents friends to use your head as a soccer ball or your back as a needle cushion, is an acceptable alternative mantra.

Youy think it is easy to restrain a knifehand? get a friend at training to attack you with a big red magic marker as a "knife", tell him he gets one beer for every red mark he leaves on vital areas, and he has to pay a beer if he leaves you unmarked. bring your wallet.
Why stop there? ask a second friend to try to stab you with a magic marker (a second collor so you dont rob the first friend of his hard earned beers) and see how effective your grappling is vs multiple opponents.
Grappling is very effective in the right situations. facing a knife or multiple opponents are not the right situations. Believing they are the right tools for such situations is right up there with thinking you can learn to fight without ever sparring, in terms of dellusion. Sorry, but that is the truth.

 

[MarcoW]

You serously want to grapple with a soneone weilding a knife? that is truly stupid. There is no way to do that without taking a stab or two. What you want is to be a mini machida. elusive and out of range.
The point of remaing standing is to be able to get away FAST. You do not want to stay in that range, you do not want to GET into that range, but if you get there, throw the guy, put a boot in to slow him down getting up, run away to feed your dog or whatever reason you have to not go to hospital from stupid machismo.

Yet he did wait, because when the fight went to the ground, the stabber was free to do whatever he wanted without any risk whatsoever. Grappling is amazing 1-on-1 without weapon, but if you are not VERY sure of those two factors, then it turns into a bad idea. And if it is 1-on-1 without weapons, it is probalby not really self-defense but just a "friendly" fight.

You are considering it all wrong.

Consider that they have a knife in their pocket.
If I take someone down and end up in mount, why does it matter if they have a knife in their pocket? How are they going to get it out? I am going to be a vigilant martial artist and watch their hands at all times. If anything that will tip me off that they have a knife and I can retrieve it.

Assuming they do have a knife drawn already before the take down.
At some point if you aren't getting repeatedly stabbed you are going to be in a makeshift clinch. As someone who has trained this, this is just what happens. You have two hands on the knife arm, and he has one hand maybe hitting you or trying to pry your hands off his knife arm.

It is not super easy to take the knife away. The easiest way to take it away I've found is to trip him and from top position strip the knife away. Trying continuously to do it from standing up is trying to do something that is harder than it has to be.

If you don't believe me train it live. You will see before long that in order to prevent the knife wielder from moving out of range and simply coming back in again you want to take him down.

 

[MarcoW]

missing the point.

Youy think it is easy to restrain a knifehand? get a friend at training to attack you with a big red magic marker as a "knife", tell him he gets one beer for every red mark he leaves on vital areas, and he has to pay a beer if he leaves you unmarked. bring your wallet.
Why stop there? ask a second friend to try to stab you with a magic marker (a second collor so you dont rob the first friend of his hard earned beers) and see how effective your grappling is vs multiple opponents.
Grappling is very effective in the right situations. facing a knife or multiple opponents are not the right situations. Believing they are the right tools for such situations is right up there with thinking you can learn to fight without ever sparring, in terms of dellusion. Sorry, but that is the truth.

You are again talking in pointless hypotheticals.
If there are two weapon wielding attackers your only choice is to run or if you are defending your life or someone else look for a weapon on the ground nearby.
This is also your best bet in a 1 on 1. But if there is no option and you get clinched up with one attacker taking them down works.

If there are more than 1 attackers obviously you don't take them down.
It seems like self-defence people think grapplers were born brain dead. Its a very simple concept that is not confusing or surprising in any way...

 

[shinkyoku]

You are considering it all wrong.

Consider that they have a knife in their pocket.
If I take someone down and end up in mount, why does it matter if they have a knife in their pocket? How are they going to get it out? I am going to be a vigilant martial artist and watch their hands at all times. If anything that will tip me off that they have a knife and I can retrieve it.

you are assuming the fight will start at a given signal, at distance, in a well lit area, and you fill begin with slowly circling each other -like a sport match. sorry that is not how a real fight or sd works.
You say that grappers are smart enough to run away if facing 2 or more opponents or a weapon. What you do not seem to grasp is that you will not KNOW until you are in deep fecal matter. Once you are on the ground, you have lost the option of running away.

I am obviously wasting my time here, and it is not even on topic anymore. But do yourself a favour and try the exercise with the magic marker. Grabbing and holding that knife hand is not the walk in the park you seem to think. and once it get loose, even for a second, it is stabby-stabby time.
Or just try mma vs two opponents. You may have a perfect ambar on one opponent, but the other will do G&P at leisure.

As I have repeatedly stated. grappling is great, but it has its limits. Multiple opponents (even potentially, you never know when a crazy GF or buddy will jump in when there are no ref to keep them away. so the 1vs1 you were banking on may not last long once you get to the ground -se my knife vs grappler vid. he didnt think he was facing more than one opponent either) and the possibility of weapons, is past that limit. If you are smart you learn and accept those limits. Or stick to sports where they do not apply -but then never complain about other sports that does not fight "for real" either.

 

[Thycidides]

Of course a olympian medalist would have a edge throwing anyone. That is a stupid argument But we cannot all be olympic medalists.
1-on-1 grappling rules. but if there is a weapon, the hard rule is to stay out of range or get a better weapon yourself. But the example in the vid, with the second guy jumping in and stabbing away, is just the extreme. Any time the opponent have a friend nearby who is willing to put a boot in to aid his (or her) friend, you will be at a huge disadvantage if you are on the ground. On your feet you can always move away. And the point of SD is not to ko, choke or armbar the opponent into submission, it is to get away with your skin intact. If that means legging it at the first opportunity, then that is the way to go.

And how many not so famous incidents have there been when guys have been stabbed in grappling range because they didnt know the guy was carrying? Or because they THOUGHT they could catch the knifehand?
If there is a noticeable number of knifewielders grappled to the ground reportedin newspapers, and I have not noticed this. how many of them was caught by suprise from behind when outnumbered?

It sounds like you agree that the move Ian Abernathy shows is low percentage for most people and one really interested in learning hip throws would be better off training in a judo gym or some other grappling style than karate.

As for successful knife defense I agree it is all low percentage. I don't really see the point in training it other than a fun distraction And in that law enforcment context learning how to take someone down from behind as a group sounds a good thing to train.

 

[Thycidides]

I totally agree. The problem is - the Karate masters of old who created the Kata (which include takedowns and stadup grappling) had NO IDEA we'd end up with modern day rule sets. I'm all for MMA rules in Karate but I can't convince everybody. At least Kudo and Shidokan got it right(-ish).

So why do you post about karate if you would prefer mma rulest and mind set ?

 

[Thycidides]

That's cherry picking the data to conform to your belief.

A lot of knife ADW's rolling around on the ground where you're from?

LOL!

Just because there's a "famous incident" doesn't mean that's the rule.

You would actually have to study the topic and train with people who are in the lines of work where ADW's are common and processed.

I do train with policeman. We have a lot of fun rolling around on the ground in bjj class! Their line on dealing with the knife attacker is to either shoot them or get in close for a clinch / tackle preferably in a group of other officers.

I suppose using a baton would be a good tactic too.

What do you suggest and if you can list some examples of knife attackers being stopped in other ways id like to see that.

 

[shinkyoku]

It sounds like you agree that the move Ian Abernathy shows is low percentage for most people and one really interested in learning hip throws would be better off training in a judo gym or some other grappling style than karate.

All throws are low % for most people. and while I agree that to learn real good hipthrows, you should go to judo, judo does not teach striking (yes, formally you can find it in some schools). The throws abernethy shows are rudimentary in comparision and will not hold a candle against a trained grappler, but it is enough for most situations where a striker find that they can no longer avoid that range. It is not intended for defeating specialists in a mma cage.

As for successful knife defense I agree it is also low percentage. I don't really see the point in training it other than a fun distraction or one is a policeman or first responder who is ready risk their lives for others. And in that law enforcment context learning how to take someone down from behind as a group sounds a good thing to train.

If you are into the sport side and chose to ignore all non-sport aspects, that is fine and I respect it. just be aware that that is what you do. I am getting too old for competition, and like the original purpose - even if I hope not to, and never really expect to have to use it.

btw. Law enforcement is not sd either, as it usually involves superior numbers, usually armed backup, and a goal so subdue and catch the perp, as opposed to the "get away whole -period" of sd.

 

[Thycidides]

The throws abernethy shows are rudimentary in comparision and will not hold a candle against a trained grappler, but it is enough for most situations where a striker find that they can no longer avoid that range.

.

What makes you think that is true? As I've said before it is hard for me to throw white belts. Hell is hard for me to throw newbies in mma type sparring and not land in a heap on the ground. It is even harder if they are bigger than me. In fact at a lot of places ive trained at in both striking and grappling newbies aren't aloud to spar because they are too wild and aggressive and end up hurting the senior people.

I don't see how or why self defense training should be less demanding than competition training. I guess if you are already high level and have done years of sparring and tournament fights you could train differently. But in my experience self defense is marketed to newbies and beginners.

.

 

[Hotora86]

So why do you post about karate if you would prefer mma rulest and mind set ?

Because that's my background, I still enjoy it and believe that Karate can be adapted to the MMA ruleset and mindset. Though a self-defense mindset interests me more.

 

[MarcoW]

I am obviously wasting my time here, and it is not even on topic anymore. But do yourself a favour and try the exercise with the magic marker. Grabbing and holding that knife hand is not the walk in the park you seem to think. and once it get loose, even for a second, it is stabby-stabby time.
Or just try mma vs two opponents. You may have a perfect ambar on one opponent, but the other will do G&P at leisure.

I did, and as I am telling you, it is far easier to hold that arm from on top, than it is from a standing position, but if you don't believe me I'll just tell you to consider trying it if you ever do practice.

 

[Thycidides]

Because that's my background, I still enjoy it and believe that Karate can be adapted to the MMA ruleset and mindset. Though a self-defense mindset interests me more.

Like I said before, I don't see how or why self defense training or mindset should be less different than competition training. I guess if you are already high level and have done years of sparring and tournament fights you could train differently. But in my experience self defense is marketed to newbies and beginners.

It really bugs me that the material taught in self defense classes at my gym aren't really applicable to the competetion setting. Somehow the self defense stuff is low percentage and hard to learn than it should be.

 

[Hotora86]

Like I said before, I don't see how or why self defense training or mindset should be less different than competition training. I guess if you are already high level and have done years of sparring and tournament fights you could train differently. But in my experience self defense is marketed to newbies and beginners.

It really bugs me that the material taught in self defense classes at my gym aren't really applicable to the competetion setting. Somehow the self defense stuff is low percentage and hard to learn than it should be.

IMHO the mindset is indeed different. The competitor goal is to WIN. The self defense goal is to BE SAFE. Winning (a fight) does not guarantee safety. Moreover, focusing on winning instead of escaping may lead to very unsafe outcomes.

Notice how many of Abernethy's drills end with him backing away from the "opponent". Punch, sweep, escape. NOT "finish him off", "take full mount" or "GnP". I've personally seen streetfights where "winning" guys in full mount were brutally KOd by the downed guy's buddy. ESCAPE is the self-dense goal, so whether you need to strike or not, that's where your mind should be at all times.

Here's a very "mindset-focused" piece on self-defense that I highly recommend:
http://www.wimsblog.com/2013/04/self-defense-tips-for-men/

Note that there's no FIGHTING TIPS in there. Why? Because fighting should be avoided if you want to be SAFE. Accepting this simple truth is essential.

 

[Thycidides]

IMHO the mindset is indeed different. The competitor goal is to WIN. The self defense goal is to BE SAFE. Winning (a fight) does not guarantee safety. Moreover, focusing on winning instead of escaping may lead to very unsafe outcomes.

Notice how many of Abernethy's drills end with him backing away from the "opponent". Punch, sweep, escape. NOT "finish him off", "take full mount" or "GnP". I've personally seen streetfights where "winning" guys in full mount were brutally KOd by the downed guy's buddy. ESCAPE is the self-dense goal, so whether you need to strike or not, that's where your mind should be at all times.

Here's a very "mindset-focused" piece on self-defense that I highly recommend:
http://www.wimsblog.com/2013/04/self-defense-tips-for-men/

Note that there's no FIGHTING TIPS in there. Why? Because fighting should be avoided if you want to be SAFE. Accepting this simple truth is essential.

Maybe your experience is different, but I spend more time learning how to escape bad positions in competition focus classes than in self defense classes. This is because there is a heavy sparring focus in competition class, so one has to be good at defense in order to avoid being beaten up by bigger or more skilled people.

The self defense classes however tend not to place people in those uncomfortable situations.

I've similarly spent more time learning head movement and defensive footwork in kickboxing class than in arts that don't have a sport ruleset.

Also if you watch combat sports it more common for skilled competitors to try not to lose or be super defensive than to be overaggressive. I'm thinking boxing in particular here.

 

[Hotora86]

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