your thoughts on 10th planet

[JustTheTip]

I think they just don't pass well. None of his top guys ever pass anyone really good's guards. Their system seems much more intent on grabbing subs when on top (Darces, leg locks, etc.) than just passing to dominant position.

Yes!

This became very evident to me when watching Justin Rader vs Denny Prokopos, as well as that year they 'invaded' NoGi Worlds.

The weakest aspect of their system I think is the lack of guard passing and guard retention. I used to think it was because they never trained gi, and in gi the guard vs the guard pass is the main battle front. However we've seen another no-gi team produce good guard passing without gi training. The gi may still contribute, but my theory is that they just don't seem to focus much on that part of the game.

Craig Jones, Lachlan Giles, and Kit Dale do "first to points" drills without the gi. I know Gordon Ryan and the DDS guys do drills and positional sparring focused on passing and retaining guard. I know Eddie Cummings does at his comp classes right now.

I have never heard of 10th Planet stopping when someone passes or sweeps and resetting. So I think they mostly just don't practice that skill very much.

Finally, I think it would benefit them. Even in the realm where you're talking about hunting subs from on top (which is a big part of my game) I've found that sub-hunting from the top gets easier and easier the more my passing and top pressure overall improves. The DDS/Renzo guys are an example of this and IMHO they are sort of a "better" 10th Planet.

You have any thoughts on that hypothesis? Or do you think it's other reasons why their passing is lacking? Geo is the best of them at the traditional guard retention and guard passing game.

Their passing has always been their biggest weakness. On top, pretty much all their guys look lost and alternate trying to grab both ankles and flip their opponent over with cartwheeling and trying to run around the guard. I believe it is because of their lack of awareness of points. The purpose of points is to get people to fight for and defend positions. Without any points or awareness of positions,the submissions are the focus with little awareness of what comes in between. The Miyaos had some of the best guards in IBJJF but had to really work their passing because of the points aspect.

 

[thewhiterooster]

I'm have mixed feelings on 10th planet. I think a lot of their technique is reserved for the upper echelon 10th planet grapplers. seems like a lot of the techniques are too flashy for the white/blue/purple level folks to pull off in an effective manner. and lets face it, a lot of us aren't flexible enough to do his rubber guard stuff. buuuuuut I also use some 10th planet stuff and it's worked. for me. so like most bjj, I like to try it all out and see what works for my game. some of it does. some is quite innovative.

 

[Mr Rick]

Spider web is also an interesting position they are big on. So much so it’s one of their ‘overtime’ positions. I’ve tried it a little but prefer how firas Zahabi controls from that armbar position, feet crossed with a kimura grip. Has anyone used it much?

 

[Zankou]

Their passing has always been their biggest weakness. On top, pretty much all their guys look lost and alternate trying to grab both ankles and flip their opponent over with cartwheeling and trying to run around the guard. I believe it is because of their lack of awareness of points. The purpose of points is to get people to fight for and defend positions. Without any points or awareness of positions,the submissions are the focus with little awareness of what comes in between. The Miyaos had some of the best guards in IBJJF but had to really work their passing because of the points aspect.

I agree with all of this, but I would note that guard passing is arguably the hardest BJJ skill to learn, and also one of the least useful. People conflate it with top game generally, which is obviously extremely useful in broader contexts (self defense, mma, wrestling, etc.). But affirmatively passing the guard is IMO not particularly important in modern MMA, almost non existent in street fighting situations, and useless for other grappling sports. As much as the berimbolo is mocked, for example, learning how to defend and pass somebody working it from DLR is even more specialized.

There are some guys who have used passing to great effect in MMA of course ... Maia and GSP come to mind. But the emphasis on passing in BJJ is not necessarily a super-useful aspect of the art, even if it is one of the most interesting and fun parts of the game.

 

[Zankou]

Spider web is also an interesting position they are big on. So much so it’s one of their ‘overtime’ positions. I’ve tried it a little but prefer how firas Zahabi controls from that armbar position, feet crossed with a kimura grip. Has anyone used it much?

Zahabi’s approach is great. I have never liked the spider web by contrast, but to each his own. Some people don’t like the kimura grip, a view which I consider the darkest form of heresy.

 

[mataleaos]

Spider web is also an interesting position they are big on. So much so it’s one of their ‘overtime’ positions. I’ve tried it a little but prefer how firas Zahabi controls from that armbar position, feet crossed with a kimura grip. Has anyone used it much?

Feet crossed behind the fair shoulder with the head-side leg ankle underneath is my preference, either with a kimura grip or the head-side arm weaved through elbow to elbow "reaching into the pocket" of my hip.

The kimura grip everywhere is basically the best grip in the game. I can't imagine anyone not liking it in basically any scenario let alone from spiderweb. The kimura grip from spiderweb is amazing.

 

[mataleaos]

I agree with all of this, but I would note that guard passing is arguably the hardest BJJ skill to learn, and also one of the least useful. People conflate it with top game generally, which is obviously extremely useful in broader contexts (self defense, mma, wrestling, etc.). But affirmatively passing the guard is IMO not particularly important in modern MMA, almost non existent in street fighting situations, and useless for other grappling sports. As much as the berimbolo is mocked, for example, learning how to defend and pass somebody working it from DLR is even more specialized.

There are some guys who have used passing to great effect in MMA of course ... Maia and GSP come to mind. But the emphasis on passing in BJJ is not necessarily a super-useful aspect of the art, even if it is one of the most interesting and fun parts of the game.

Regarding the bolded one could even argue it's less useful in BJJ than it's ever been due to the prevalence of sub-only rules right now.

I do however think it's a great skill because I think it makes your top game generally better across the board, even if you choose to not "affirmatively pass" as you put it (nice wording BTW).

Great post.

 

[JustTheTip]

I agree with all of this, but I would note that guard passing is arguably the hardest BJJ skill to learn, and also one of the least useful. People conflate it with top game generally, which is obviously extremely useful in broader contexts (self defense, mma, wrestling, etc.). But affirmatively passing the guard is IMO not particularly important in modern MMA, almost non existent in street fighting situations, and useless for other grappling sports. As much as the berimbolo is mocked, for example, learning how to defend and pass somebody working it from DLR is even more specialized.

There are some guys who have used passing to great effect in MMA of course ... Maia and GSP come to mind. But the emphasis on passing in BJJ is not necessarily a super-useful aspect of the art, even if it is one of the most interesting and fun parts of the game.

I agree. The thing about guard passing as it relates to training is that it helps your training partners in their guard retention. Not only in their defending the actual pass but not letting the passer settle in the pass to get the points and position. In matches 10thP guys seem to have unique submissions,escapes, and good scrambling ability, but lack the glue of fundamentals.

 

[JustTheTip]

Spider web is also an interesting position they are big on. So much so it’s one of their ‘overtime’ positions. I’ve tried it a little but prefer how firas Zahabi controls from that armbar position, feet crossed with a kimura grip. Has anyone used it much?

Thank you for mentioning Firas. I've been really working the armbar with the crossed feet and after you mentioned Firas, I looked up his videos and they really answer some questions I've had recently.

 

[rmongler]

Every seated armbar is a triangle setup yearning to be realized; every triangle is an arm begging to be taken.

 

[ijustwannasurf]

Spider web is also an interesting position they are big on. So much so it’s one of their ‘overtime’ positions. I’ve tried it a little but prefer how firas Zahabi controls from that armbar position, feet crossed with a kimura grip. Has anyone used it much?

I usually enter that position off a back take. Kimura grip armbars are my best finish from the back.

 

[mataleaos]

I usually enter that position off a back take. Kimura grip armbars are my best finish from the back.

Same here.

Thank you Rafa and Durinho.

 

[Uchi Mata]

I agree with all of this, but I would note that guard passing is arguably the hardest BJJ skill to learn, and also one of the least useful. People conflate it with top game generally, which is obviously extremely useful in broader contexts (self defense, mma, wrestling, etc.). But affirmatively passing the guard is IMO not particularly important in modern MMA, almost non existent in street fighting situations, and useless for other grappling sports. As much as the berimbolo is mocked, for example, learning how to defend and pass somebody working it from DLR is even more specialized.

There are some guys who have used passing to great effect in MMA of course ... Maia and GSP come to mind. But the emphasis on passing in BJJ is not necessarily a super-useful aspect of the art, even if it is one of the most interesting and fun parts of the game.

This is all very true. Until you've trained with some guys with strong MMA top striking games it's easy to underestimate the degree to which being able to maintain position and do damage on top can replace passing as your default top strategy. I've rolled with a number of guys I can roll up pretty easily when we're doing straight BJJ, guys who would never pass my guard, but when we put on the gloves I just suffer on bottom. Being on top is its own reward in a fight, you don't need to pass guard.

 

[Dogstarman]

I agree. The thing about guard passing as it relates to training is that it helps your training partners in their guard retention. Not only in their defending the actual pass but not letting the passer settle in the pass to get the points and position. In matches 10thP guys seem to have unique submissions,escapes, and good scrambling ability, but lack the glue of fundamentals.

I don’t know if they lack fundamentals. Have you studied 10th planet. Have you looked at their warm ups? Maybe you know more than I do but they look like they practice those fundamentals every class. As I said I only know what I see online as I haven’t been to headquarters but I think they practice all those things and more.
Sure the rubber guard is the basis of their game but I think they do practice other positions as well.

 

[Uchi Mata]

I don’t know if they lack fundamentals. Have you studied 10th planet. Have you looked at their warm ups? Maybe you know more than I do but they look like they practice those fundamentals every class. As I said I only know what I see online as I haven’t been to headquarters but I think they practice all those things and more.
Sure the rubber guard is the basis of their game but I think they do practice other positions as well.

I don't know if I'd call it fundamentals per se, but what the 10th Planet guys seem to lack is much connective tissue in their games. They have a whole bunch of moves, some of which are pretty cool and innovative, but none of them seem very good at managing the transition between positions in a controlled fashion. They end up creating scrambles when they don't need to, when they'd be better served by slowly controlling and advancing position, and they rely a great deal on 'catching' people rather than setting subs up. At least that's my impression from watching and rolling with them. The best 10th Planet guys I know have all trained traditional BJJ as well and are able to fuse the funky angles and strategies from Eddie with standard positionally controlling games. Though not for any of them is passing their forte.

 

[shunyata]

10th Planet is fun.
Eddie and Denny have gotten crazier over the years though.
Alder is a better teacher than Eddie is, if you have the chance to train under him go for it. Eddie is brilliant in many ways but Alder is a lot more organized.

 

[JustTheTip]

I don't know if I'd call it fundamentals per se, but what the 10th Planet guys seem to lack is much connective tissue in their games. They have a whole bunch of moves, some of which are pretty cool and innovative, but none of them seem very good at managing the transition between positions in a controlled fashion. They end up creating scrambles when they don't need to, when they'd be better served by slowly controlling and advancing position, and they rely a great deal on 'catching' people rather than setting subs up. At least that's my impression from watching and rolling with them. The best 10th Planet guys I know have all trained traditional BJJ as well and are able to fuse the funky angles and strategies from Eddie with standard positionally controlling games. Though not for any of them is passing their forte.

This here.

 

[trustdoesntrust]

I agree. The thing about guard passing as it relates to training is that it helps your training partners in their guard retention. Not only in their defending the actual pass but not letting the passer settle in the pass to get the points and position. In matches 10thP guys seem to have unique submissions,escapes, and good scrambling ability, but lack the glue of fundamentals.

this 10th Planet guy is who i think of when i read your post. it's what your guard looks like when you don't have serious guard passing/guard retention battles in training; you end up 90% tricks, 10% sound fundamental structure:

 

[ijustwannasurf]

I don't know if I'd call it fundamentals per se, but what the 10th Planet guys seem to lack is much connective tissue in their games. .

Therein lies the disconnect. From an external point of view, the 10P warmups are designed to build exactly that kind of "connective tissue", emphasizing reactions and controlled transitions between positions. Is it the moves in the sequence preventing real positional awareness being built? Maybe. But most of the movements in the warmup are very simple; they are just strung together in nontraditional ways. Is it the overall 10P culture that encourages the more scrambly training that Uchi describes? That would be my guess.

 

[JustTheTip]

I hope nobody is seeing this as a diss on 10th Planet. While I think there are better approaches, there is definitely value in different teams thinking outside the box and exploring the advancement of BJJ. IMO the greatest value of BJJ exploding in the US is that it helped BJJ/Grappling grow. American culture is used to diversity and questioning things. An example is leg attacks. For years in Brazil, even simple anklelocks was looked down up on. Now there are intricate leg entanglements that change the whole game. Even "gaming" positions like 50/50 have value. In a self defense situation against a prime Mike Tyson, I have far better chances in 50/50 where I control his hips and he is seated then if he was in my closed guard where he might KO me. 10thP brought the Truck position and the lockdown which both have value in any system.