War Room Lounge V20: Halloween Awareness: Dispatches Blast Yo Ass from a Pumpkin Patch

[Limbo Pete]

I'm going to be that guy and say that there's truth to the idea of cultural appropriation. Not saying it should be banned or people should be shamed and reprimanded for it but the reality is that when you wear some shitty Native American costume to a costume party you're going to look like an ass to an actual Native American.

As a native person, i'll raise my hand specifically to deal with the costume thing.
When you see native people "dressed up" like costumes are generally attempting to portray, we are wearing regalia. Regalia has specific cultural purposes (prayers, etc.) Costumes are something you wear to be something or someone else; regalia is the opposite of that, if that makes sense. It serves a job, an important job, and there are serious religious and social implications for misusing or disrespecting it. It is typically, and by that I mean almost without any possible exception, very very important.

 

[Trotsky]

I'm going to be that guy and say that there's truth to the idea of cultural appropriation. Not saying it should be banned or people should be shamed and reprimanded for it but the reality is that when you wear some shitty Native American costume to a costume party you're going to look like an ass to an actual Native American.

It's a messy subject with so much grey area that I generally avoid it, but you're right. Iggy Azalea (sp) is a topic that I think genuinely wanders into the area of cultural appropriation: some white Australian girl rapping with a shameless urban black accent and using black slang. But Eminem or Macklemore rapping because they grew up listening to rap and idolizing rap figures is just culture being culture.

 

[Cubo de Sangre]

But, yeah, I agree that it's a silly thread. But it's super strange that it basically went: politician made some obscure claim that is totally irrelevant to her career and to her platform as a politician, opponents on the right try to distract from her political message by bringing attention to the falsity of this obscure claim, politician takes blood test to show that obscure claim has merit, and then the opponents take a victory lap for having goaded her into discussing the issue and take that victory as a reason to vote against her and for her opponents.

It's fucking idiotic.

It is all pretty idiotic. But the claim in question is her minority status while at UPenn and Harvard. The DNA test definitively contradicts that claim that she's a minority of Native American ancestry. The test showing she has this minimal amount of DNA backs up her claim of Native American blood in her family tree. People need to be clear about which claim the evidence supports and which it falsifies. How much someone gives a shit that she misrepresented herself in such an innocuous fashion is up to them.

I'm going to be that guy and say that there's truth to the idea of cultural appropriation. Not saying it should be banned or people should be shamed and reprimanded for it but the reality is that when you wear some shitty Native American costume to a costume party you're going to look like an ass to an actual Native American.

How is that cultural appropriation? That's just playing dress up. Ain't no kids appropriating Superman culture when they were those costumes. My understanding is it's when customs are actually adopted/integrated.

 

[Islam Imamate]

As a native person, i'll raise my hand specifically to deal with the costume thing.
When you see native people "dressed up" like costumes are generally attempting to portray, we are wearing regalia. Regalia has specific cultural purposes (prayers, etc.) Costumes are something you wear to be something or someone else; regalia is the opposite of that, if that makes sense. It serves a job, an important job, and there are serious religious and social implications for misusing or disrespecting it. It is typically, and by that I mean almost without any possible exception, very very important.

Obviously non-native people have a right to wear it regardless but still, you can't expect someone for whom that stuff is more important to not be at least a little peeved by it.

I mean seriously I have to imagine that the people who don't think cultural appropriation is a big deal have some overlap with people who take disrespecting the flag very seriously. For those who are in that overlap it should be at least understandable

How is that cultural appropriation? That's just playing dress up. Ain't no kids appropriating Superman culture when they were those costumes. My understanding is it's when customs are actually adopted/integrated.

The dress up stuff counts as well I think

When its outside the context it can still come off as lame. @Trotsky has a point, there's a lot of gray area here. I think intent matters, some people really have respect when they engage with other cultures and some don't.

 

[Jack V Savage]

lol at me looking that up when it was in your link on like page 3. Your link claimed Upenn listed her as a minority. Claiming to be enough NA to be a minority is far more of a claim than saying there was this one ancestor a few generations ago or so.

So you're taking "UPenn listed her as a minority" to mean "Warren claimed to have a higher percentage or NA ancestry than her other comments suggested and what the test shows." And then you're suggesting that my own unwillingness to make such an uncharitable, and I'd argue wacky, reading is out of bounds. I'd recommend some reflection here.

 

[Jack V Savage]

As a native person, i'll raise my hand specifically to deal with the costume thing.
When you see native people "dressed up" like costumes are generally attempting to portray, we are wearing regalia. Regalia has specific cultural purposes (prayers, etc.) Costumes are something you wear to be something or someone else; regalia is the opposite of that, if that makes sense. It serves a job, an important job, and there are serious religious and social implications for misusing or disrespecting it. It is typically, and by that I mean almost without any possible exception, very very important.

That's fair, but wouldn't the issue be the frivolousness and disrespect rather than appropriation? Like, someone aware of the seriousness who misuses it (i.e., someone steeped in the culture) would be *worse* than someone ignorant of the meaning, wouldn't they?

 

[Limbo Pete]

Obviously non-native people have a right to wear it regardless but still, you can't expect someone for whom that stuff is more important to not be at least a little peeved by it.

I mean seriously I have to imagine that the people who don't think cultural appropriation is a big deal have some overlap with people who take disrespecting the flag very seriously. For those who are in that overlap it should be at least understandable

The dress up stuff counts as well I think

When its outside the context it can still come off as lame. @Trotsky has a point, there's a lot of gray area here. I think intent matters, some people really have respect when they engage with other cultures and some don't.

Sure, you can't stop people from cultural appropriation. They can dress up however they want. But having a legal right to do something doesn't mean you should. In other words, people have a right to be jerks. But show up around me in a native costume and you're gonna get an earful. I'm an old hat at lecturing people over this. And very articulate lol.

 

[Limbo Pete]

That's fair, but wouldn't the issue be the frivolousness and disrespect rather than appropriation? Like, someone aware of the seriousness who misuses it (i.e., someone steeped in the culture) would be *worse* than someone ignorant of the meaning, wouldn't they?

Ehhhh it all sucks

 

[Islam Imamate]

That's fair, but wouldn't the issue be the frivolousness and disrespect rather than appropriation? Like, someone aware of the seriousness who misuses it (i.e., someone steeped in the culture) would be *worse* than someone ignorant of the meaning, wouldn't they?

Usually the people who are ignorant of the meaning tend not to care.

 

[Fedorable]

@m3

When did you first know you wanted to be a ballerina?

when I used to be a little girl.

 

[Fedorable]

Sure, you can't stop people from cultural appropriation. They can dress up however they want. But having a legal right to do something doesn't mean you should. In other words, people have a right to be jerks. But show up around me in a native costume and you're gonna get an earful. I'm an old hat at lecturing people over this. And very articulate lol.

I learned this the hard way. Carry around one fresh scalp and everyone loses their mind.

 

[Cubo de Sangre]

The dress up stuff counts as well I think

Does what you think affect the official definition? More importantly, since you like differences, is it anywhere near the same thing for some folks here and there to dress up for Halloween by wearing some Native American headdress as it would be if wearing them became a fashion trend? If not, I'd caution against lumping them under the same divisive term.

So you're taking "UPenn listed her as a minority" to mean "Warren claimed to have a higher percentage or NA ancestry than her other comments suggested and what the test shows." And then you're suggesting that my own unwillingness to make such an uncharitable, and I'd argue wacky, reading is out of bounds. I'd recommend some reflection here.

Unless you're claiming the test shows she's a minority it's you who should be reflecting (on why you're so reticent to acknowledge a fact your introduced). UPenn doesn't make that shit up.

 

[Islam Imamate]

Does what you think affect the official definition? More importantly, since you like differences, is it anywhere near the same thing for some folks here and there to dress up for Halloween by wearing some Native American headdress as it would be if wearing them became a fashion trend? If not, I'd caution against lumping them under the same divisive term.

Wearing it for a costume party is a bit different but that doesn't change the fact that it might irk someone from that culture. I know its a SJW cliche but for some people their culture is not a costume.

 

[Cubo de Sangre]

Wearing it for a costume party is a bit different but that doesn't change the fact that it might irk someone from that culture. I know its a SJW cliche but for some people their culture is not a costume.

Sure, but someone's displeasure doesn't automatically create new definitions. People conflating wearing costumes with actually adopting a cultural trait muddy up the conversation.

As for culture being made fun of, tough shit if someone doesn't like it. That's humor. Outside of puns the jokes are pretty much always at someone's expense.

 

[Fedorable]

Sure, but someone's displeasure doesn't automatically create new definitions. People conflating wearing costumes with actually adopting a cultural trait muddy up the conversation.

As for culture being made fun of, tough shit if someone doesn't like it. That's humor. Outside of puns the jokes are pretty much always at someone's expense.

I don't see the humor.

 

[Limbo Pete]

 

[Cubo de Sangre]

I don't see the humor.

Me either. This is pretty cool though.

 

[Islam Imamate]

Sure, but someone's displeasure doesn't automatically create new definitions. People conflating wearing costumes with actually adopting a cultural trait muddy up the conversation.

Clothing are a part of culture, adopting them as a part of a costume wearing tradition is cultural appropriation.

As for culture being made fun of, tough shit if someone doesn't like it. That's humor. Outside of puns the jokes are pretty much always at someone's expense.

Well yeah as I said of course they have the right, just don't expect the person who is from that culture to appreciate it. And its not always done intentionally to cause offense, its just sometimes done in such a boneheaded manner that it does

 

[Cubo de Sangre]

Clothing are a part of culture, adopting them as a part of a costume wearing tradition is cultural appropriation.

Maybe someday we'll start seeing published definitions more supportive of your view.

Well yeah as I said of course they have the right, just don't expect the person who is from that culture to appreciate it.

I don't. Just like they shouldn't expect me to give a shit they're offended. Earlier today I pointed out your insulting behavior and you mocked me for it. Somehow a vague indirect offense is worse to you than insulting someone directly? Or you just shift your standards about as it suits you?

 

[Islam Imamate]

Maybe someday we'll start seeing published definitions more supportive of your view.

Here's what wiki says:

Cultural appropriation is the adoption of elements of a minority culture by members of the dominant culture.

cultural elements are copied from a minority culture by members of a dominant culture, and these elements are used outside of their original cultural context

Using clothing from another culture in the context of a costume party would presumably be using it outside of its original cultural context

I don't. Just like they shouldn't expect me to give a shit they're offended. Earlier today I pointed out your insulting behavior and you mocked me for it. Somehow a vague indirect offense is worse to you than insulting someone directly? Or you just shift your standards about as it suits you?

I'm not saying I'm offended, I'm saying some people out there might be. Someone sensitive like you for instance.

Besides, for some people their culture is a line in the sand they don't want crossed when it comes to disrespect.