Do you consider BJ Penn to be top 10 all time?

[DOMMA]

No way Penn is top 10 but he is top 20 which is impressive. Here is a pretty decent top 10 list. You could certainly argue over the order but Penn not could displace any of these guys.

 

[Cobra 03]

No way. He was top 10 in his prime, but going 1-9-1 in his last 11 fights, kind of drops him out, for me.

 

[2432sj]

No. Too many losses, even before he fell off a cliff at the end.

 

[looq]

BJ's insane natural ability and stubbornness is what made him the best in the world for a while, and ironically, what made him suffer and enter his own downfall.

 

[pankrat]

Legit question - Do you consider Conor a GOAT?

Cleaned out the FW and stopped the LW champion. That alone should get him discussion for top 10 all time, right?

We just ignore these unmotivated losses to Khabib and Poirier at the end of his career and he should get credit for moving up and taking on the much bigger Nate Diaz, despite losing, right?

Legit question - Don't you see the differences?

> BJ beat 9 or 10 top ranked LWs
> Conor beat 2? 3? 4 being generous? top ranked FWs

> Hughes was a champion with 5 defenses and is still in 2023 regarded top3 GOAT WW
> Alvarez is/was none of that

> Nate Diaz is not GSP nor Lyoto Machida. Not in skill nor in size

So you don't see the differences? You should check that

Its what gets BJ in top10 all-time convos and not Conor.
Conor was on his way though, and the impressive feats you described still get him in top25 lists of greates of all-time most likely. Because they were indeed extraordinary. Regardless of late struggles.

 

[scoobster]

Do you consider bJ top 10 all time?

 

[KillerIsBack V2]

He is the greatest LW ever, only behind Khabib, and not by much.
Plus he has much greater accomplishments at WW than Khabib.
So it's fair to say yes, he is up there in the top10 all-time

thats not saying much. Khabib never fought WW in any major org. Just 3 times against regional randoms. Even all his M1 days were LW I think.

 

[Savage]

BJ is the greatest LW of all time. Definitely in the top ten.

 

[pankrat]

I don't see it quite the same way...

At which point do you deserve the line? When he stopped being champion? When he started his losing streak? When he moved down in weight? When he fought(and lost to) Frankie Edgar for the 57th time?.

From when he KOed #1 LW Uno in 2001 to his draw with long time #2 WW Fitch in 2011. A full decade in the elite.
If we were talking about a flash in the pan you would have a better argument but a full decade body of work? More than enough to give him credit for what it was

I don't see it quite the same way...

At which point do you deserve the line? When he stopped being champion? When he started his losing streak? When he moved down in weight? When he fought(and lost to) Frankie Edgar for the 57th time?

You can't ignore the fact he cleared out a division, fought at various weight classes and performed well, and was considered GOAT at one point...... Sadly you can't ignore his own delusional attempts to reclaim what he lost... The BJ that beat Diego Sanchez would have demolished all that came thereafter, but he still lost a decision to Dennis Siver, and got bitched by Ryan Hall...

You dont see boxing pundits talking about the dozen or half a dozen losses to Sivers and Halls in Sugar Ray Robinson late career. Not even remotely is brought into the discussion, let alone wth the emphasis many haters/noob/shertards do when assessing BJ's career in these boards.
Not to mention non combat sports. lol imagine athis shit in a discussion about Michael Jordan or Diego Maradona

Anderson Silva is my all-time favourite - the same applies to him too... Once the magic has gone, you're only harming your legacy by sticking around...

Even talking about the guy with literally the longest reign in UFC history - 2,457 days....
....you want to talk about the Washington Wizards.

 

[pankrat]

thats not saying much. Khabib never fought WW in any major org. Just 3 times against regional randoms. Even all his M1 days were LW I think.

Not sure what you mean. It seems you didnt get my original post.

Im saying that if you have a guy who is #2 in one of the most stacked divisions in the sport and has great accomplishments at WW in top of that, it's fair to say he is in the top10 across the 8 different weightclasses. By pure numbers logic.

 

[Texan6533]

People forget how good he was in his prime. That being said there have been so many great fighters since then; it would be close for me, but I don’t know that he’d be top 10. Maybe top 15?

 

[Buff]

From when he KOed #1 LW Uno in 2001 to his draw with long time #2 WW Fitch in 2011. A full decade in the elite.
If we were talking about a flash in the pan, you would have a better case but a full decade body of work?
Not enough for you to give him credit for what it was?



You dont see boxing pundits talking about the dozen or half a dozen of losses to Sivers and Halls in his late career. Not even remotely is brought into the discussion, let alone wth the emphasis many haters/noob/shertards do when assessing BJ's career in these boards.
Let alone in non combat sports. lol imagine anybody brining that tone into a discussion about Michael Jordan or Diego Maradona

Jordan, Diego, and a lot of boxers don'tstay at that level though - they take the path of winding down their careers in the lower leagues though - Jordan even went to pay baseball - even Fedor gets half a pass for slumming it with Bellator and Affliction... There was always an asterisk. We knew the time had passed.

BJ made a decision to stay in the biggest organisation where rankings, and losses actually matter - I'll always defend him as a part of the "GOAT LWs" conversation, but the more time passes the more polished resumes are going to come into that "Top 10 All Time" bracket that make BJ's dark times seem extra gloomy... Its not that I'm trashing him for no reason, just that BJ was the last one to realise that his ship had sailed, and that always leaves a mark...

 

[Soggust]

Legit question - Don't you see the differences?

> BJ beat 9 or 10 top ranked LWs
> Conor beat 2? 3? 4 being generous? top ranked FWs

I'm going to ask a dumb question here that might expose my casualness, but again I'm being honest because I'm not sure how folks consider this when they say it - Top ranked according to whom? FightMatrix? Because UFC didn't have ranks until 2013. And even fight matrix had a much smaller pool of fighters when BJ started vs 2015, so it would seem lot easier to get top ranked wins.

Or are you just generally going through the resumes and saying "x and y are top wins"? Again, legit question - I'm okay with either, but I'm just not sure how we are quantifying this.

> Hughes was a champion with 5 defenses and is still in 2023 regarded top3 GOAT WW
> Alvarez is/was none of that

Agreed, but I would argue the Aldo win was at least comparable.

> Nate Diaz is not GSP nor Lyoto Machida. Not in skill nor in size

No, but Khabib is.

And Diaz was technically two divisions up. And even if we agree he wasn't a real WW or whatever, Conor still beat him at 170, so that should merit somewhat closely to a loss against better competition, I would imagine.

So you don't see the differences? You should check that

No, I literally don't. Again, not trying to be argumentative, just seems like we are kind of nitpicking differences when no comparison will ever be perfect. But I can respectfully agree to disagree on the comparison because at the end of the day, we might actually be on the same page on Conor anyway.

It feels like the difference between arguing a top 25 vs top 10 fighter is already splitting hairs generally and your take that Conor is still probably a top 25ish fighter given his career feels very fair to me, even if I don't have Penn quite as high personally.

 

[pankrat]

Jordan, Diego, and a lot of boxers don'tstay at that level though - they take the path of winding down their careers in the lower leagues though - Jordan even went to pay baseball - even Fedor gets half a pass for slumming it with Bellator and Affliction... There was always an asterisk. We knew the time had passed.
.

I strongly disagree with your stance in this topic.
Just realized that I misstyped in my previous reply so I repeat my stance:

You dont see boxing pundits talking about the dozen or half a dozen losses to Sivers and Halls in Sugar Ray Robinson late career. Not even remotely is brought into the discussion, let alone wth the emphasis in these boards when assessing BJ's career
Not to mention non combat sports. imagine this shit in a discussion about Michael Jordan or Diego Maradona (who was looking very bad in the at the time best league in the sport with Sevilla)

Anderson Silva is my all-time favourite - the same applies to him too... Once the magic has gone, you're only harming your legacy by sticking around...

Even talking about the guy with literally the longest reign in UFC history - 2,457 days....
....you want to talk about the Washington Wizards.

JI'll always defend him as a part of the "GOAT LWs" conversation, but the more time passes the more polished resumes are going to come into that "Top 10 All Time" bracket that make BJ's dark times seem extra gloomy.

Fair enough.
I agree BJ's spot in the top10 is questionable at this point and more that will be. Just saying he has a case in the conversation, despite his late career derailment

 

[bartleby929]

he can't be top 10 because of how big the sport has gone but he's in the pantheon...

bj penn is in the same category as the legend vitor belfort. just out of top 10

 

[JKS]

Not top 10, top 25 I would say. I don't really have BJ in my top 4 at LW either, got him #5.

 

[Benoitthegr8]

BJ could literally beat anyone in the world at 170-155 (possibly 145) at one point in his career, that is ***when he was on and motivated BJ***

The problem is, while he was in his prime his record was at 17-6, (I’m throwing out the NC and Openweight Machida fight), being generous and saying 2010 was his last of his prime, so he goes out on a win against Hughes. Of those 6 losses, only 3 were at LW (Pulver & Edgar), the rest were at WW (GSPx2, Hughes), so at 155 he was basically 13-3, with 4 fights being won for the title…

BJ Penn 13-3 at LW with 3 UFC title defenses.

BJ Penn 2-3 at WW with 1 UFC title wins (Hughes)

BJ Penn 1-0 at MW (Rodrigo Gracie)

BJ Penn 1-0 at LHW (Henzo Gracie)

BJ Penn 17-6 Record in his prime


Notable wins: Hughesx2, Henzo Gracie, Gomi (#1 LW), Serra, Pulver, Sherk, Uno, Florian, Ludwig, Stevenson, Sanchez, Din Thomas.

Notable Losses: GSPx2, Edgarx2, Hughes, Pulver

Takeaway: all of BJ’s losses were to UFC Champion caliber fighters… his fights outside of his natural weightclass has an insane strength of schedule[/i]

IMHO it’s fair to rate him as a fringe top10 GOAT, off the top of my head I can however easily throw out 10 names who trump his accomplishments, in weight class order..

Fedor
Miocic
Jones
Andy
Adesanya
GSP
Hughes
Khabib
Volk
DJ

 

[JKS]

Do Bronx and maybe even Edgar are ahead of him imo.

Without any question they are.

 

[Soggust]

Not sure what you mean. It seems you didnt get my original post.

Im saying that if you have a guy who is #2 in one of the most stacked divisions in the sport and has great accomplishments at WW in top of that, it's fair to say he is in the top10 across the 8 different weightclasses. By pure numbers logic.

Yeah, I think Penn gets unrightfully screwed in a lot of people's minds because his career was entirely in the UFC so he didn't have a lot (any) padding and his resume reads a lot better P4P than it does per division. Kind of DC ish in that way.

edit - forgot about k1 but whatever you know what i mean

 

[IloveTHIS]

as far as potential and talent in his prime, sure.

actual accomplishments and resume, HELLLLLL NO