Do you consider BJ Penn to be top 10 all time?

pankrat said:
Not sure what you mean. It seems you didnt get my original post.

Im saying that if you have a guy who is #2 in one of the most stacked divisions in the sport and has great accomplishments at WW in top of that, it's fair to say he is in the top10 across the 8 different weightclasses. By pure numbers logic.
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I’m confused. We dont do that.
If ur saying “greatest LW” then that usually iust refers to LW accomplishments strictly.
 
It all depends on how honest you are ...

Hes top #1 at LW... Khabib didn't surpass his title defense record..

Divisional GOATs is determined by

1) Winning the title
2) defending the belt more times then any other champion before you against ranked opponents

Thats it ..its the only fair metric to compare fighters over different eras/times


Overall Top 10 ranking hes definitely in the top 10
...he's won world titles in two different weight classes that already puts him is rarefied air and the fact he holds fights and victories in multiple weight divisions further separates him from other competitors..

I would put him around the top 5..hes above people like Conor ...in the overall rankings
 
He Steve Harwell his career, but yes, top 10 for sure.
 
Jones, Fedor, GSP, Anderson, DJ.....no way you can rank Penn over these guys 5.

Aldo, Miocic, Cormier, Usman, Adesenya, Khabib, Volkanowski....you're not putting Penn over these 7 either.

So right then and there you already have 12 fighters that are surely ahead of him.

And that is not getting in to the next category of guys like Big Nog, Shogun, Hendo, Couture, etc.

He's somewhere top 25.
 
KillerIsBack V2 said:
I’m confused. We dont do that.
If ur saying “greatest LW” then that usually iust refers to LW accomplishments strictly.
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You are certainly confussed. This a p4p discussion, so the accomploshments across weightclases are taken.
 
I'd say top 20, only 3 title defense, but his WW title win against Hughes was amazing and he almost beat GSP in their first battle, however, his wins against LWs are good but there's been better resumes, let's not forget that a lot of the best LWs in the world at that time, were in UFC, Bellator or WEC, now they are all in the UFC except maybe 1-2 of them
 
Top 10 what? He certainly had a top 10 peak for an MMA fighter. He isn't a GSP/Jones/etc. because his legacy/accolades aren't as numerous, but there was a time this dude was the P4P king. Not many people in history have been capable of being both LW and WW champion.
 
Soggust said:
I'm going to ask a dumb question here that might expose my casualness, but again I'm being honest because I'm not sure how folks consider this when they say it - Top ranked according to whom? FightMatrix? Because UFC didn't have ranks until 2013. And even fight matrix had a much smaller pool of fighters when BJ started vs 2015, so it would seem lot easier to get top ranked wins.


No, I literally don't. Again, not trying to be argumentative, just seems like we are kind of nitpicking differences when no comparison will ever be perfect. But I can respectfully agree to disagree on the comparison because at the end of the day, we might actually be on the same page on Conor anyway.

It feels like the difference between arguing a top 25 vs top 10 fighter is already splitting hairs generally and your take that Conor is still probably a top 25ish fighter given his career feels very fair to me, even if I don't have Penn quite as high personally.
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With all due respect, it's obvious you are a casual, who didnt even watched during BJ's time.
The body of work of BJ is much deeper and more extended than Conor. If you don't realize the differences you should stop asking for rankings or sources. Educate yourself a little bit in order to have a respectful discussion in a given topic.

Soggust said:
Yeah, I think Penn gets unrightfully screwed in a lot of people's minds because his career was entirely in the UFC so he didn't have a lot (any) padding and his resume reads a lot better P4P than it does per division. Kind of DC ish in that way.

edit - forgot about k1 but whatever you know what i mean
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Further testament of your casualness, scrolling down the fight finder you missed one of BJ's biggest wins in finishing Gomi with the same technique he finished Hughes later that year.
 
Assuming that we’re talking ATG pro fighter; not ATG career.

If Matt Hughes doesn’t run into LW BJ Penn (and his opponents all make weight,) then he’s most likely rivaling Silva and DJ in the consecutive title defenses department.

He went to a decision in a competitive fight with the future LHW champ who’d already mopped the floor with the soon to be UFC MW champ.

His 4 LW title fight wins were all against top ranked contenders (no one in the division can claim that) that had actual camps.

Took prime GSP to a split decision, etc…

P4P (one of the few who have had high level success fighting above his natural weight class) prime BJ is one of the ATGs.
 
Buff said:
LW he's top 5 forever.

His slide was not only difficult to watch, it damaged his legacy to the point where top 10 isn't realistic... Only PositiveBalance would say too 10 at this stage...
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Lol PB would say #1 all time.
 
Eat My Teep said:
Top 10 what? He certainly had a top 10 peak for an MMA fighter. He isn't a GSP/Jones/etc. because his legacy/accolades aren't as numerous, but there was a time this dude was the P4P king. Not many people in history have been capable of being both LW and WW champion.
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Great take, IMO!
 
pankrat said:
With all due respect, it's obvious you are a casual, who didnt even watched during BJ's time.
The body of work of BJ is much deeper and more extended than Conor. If you don't realize the differences you should stop asking for rankings or sources. Educate yourself a little bit in order to have a respectful discussion in a given topic.
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That's quite literally what I was hoping to do by asking, but given your response, it doesn't seem like you are interested in educating, only talking shit. I'm not sure why you feel attacked instead of educating me as an ignorant fan who has been respectful in the discussion, but it's certainly not your obligation or job to do so.

But telling me to "stop asking for rankings or sources" (to educate myself on the context of the time), then following that up by telling me to educate myself seems pretty fucking retarded.

Like, I'm not even sure what you are arguing. I'm not saying Conor > BJ. I'm saying applying similar methodology and logic gets Conor to 25ish to me, so I have always considered BJ similarly (which doesn't seem like a hot take according to the thread). If I'm a casual retard for asking what moves him to the top 10 in your mind, so be it.
 
Top 20 yes, top 10 no. I still consider him the best lw ever. The guy was invincible qt lw and got robbed against edgar their first fight
 
not even close really. definitely top 50 though. the wins over gomi & hughes as well as having a close fight with GSP are all super impressive
 
pankrat said:
I strongly disagree with your stance in this topic.
Just realized that I misstyped in my previous reply so I repeat my stance:

You dont see boxing pundits talking about the dozen or half a dozen losses to Sivers and Halls in Sugar Ray Robinson late career. Not even remotely is brought into the discussion, let alone wth the emphasis in these boards when assessing BJ's career
Not to mention non combat sports. imagine this shit in a discussion about Michael Jordan or Diego Maradona (who was looking very bad in the at the time best league in the sport with Sevilla)



Even talking about the guy with literally the longest reign in UFC history - 2,457 days....
....you want to talk about the Washington Wizards.



Fair enough.
I agree BJ's spot in the top10 is questionable at this point and more that will be. Just saying he has a case in the conversation, despite his late career derailment
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Anderson is top 5 for sure, would have been a shoe-in for The GOAT status, but he lost some silly fights later on that impose questions that GSP, for example, doesn't have... Shogun would have probably been more fair.
 
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